quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: You actually show a clear lack of understanding. It is very simple, more spring = more damper. You up a spring rate, you need to up the damping rate to match.

Okay, I need clarification. If I cut a coil from my front springs - that's less spring, right? Or am I creating more spring in some way? I mean, with less material to compress, does the rate go up? What is more? It's a point I'd like to understand, and impress my bench racing buddies with . I have cut a coil from my non-WS6 springs up front, but I am using ST lowering coils out back. Just wish I hadn't used urethane up front in the control arms. Mines' a daily driver that gets driven hard. (no 90 MPH cloverleafs yet though :eek! )

Oh, and Howard, you coulda at least creased the spines of those books on your shelf a little. My copy of 'Make Your Own Electric Guitar' is so worn it's split.

------------------
John DuRette, Custom 85 SE, PFF SUPPORTER

AND, Page 3 is MINE....

[This message has been edited by USFiero (edited 06-10-2004).]

Generally when you cut coils, you up the spring rate. The equation for spring rate is Rate = (Gd^4)/((8D^3)N) where N is the number of coils.

My 200k+ mile honda with stock springs and original dampers will did tripple digits on the on-ramps. It's really not impressive.

Sorry, I don't beat the **** out of my books(well, not ones I like). I actually think the skip barber book up there has been read by 5 people including myself. Anyone that doesn't think Tune has been read has a problem with their eyes.

quote Originally posted by USFiero: Okay, I need clarification. If I cut a coil from my front springs - that's less spring, right? Or am I creating more spring in some way? I mean, with less material to compress, does the rate go up? What is more? It's a point I'd like to understand, and impress my bench racing buddies with . I have cut a coil from my non-WS6 springs up front, but I am using ST lowering coils out back. Just wish I hadn't used urethane up front in the control arms. Mines' a daily driver that gets driven hard. (no 90 MPH cloverleafs yet though :eek! ) Oh, and Howard, you coulda at least creased the spines of those books on your shelf a little. My copy of 'Make Your Own Electric Guitar' is so worn it's split.

[This message has been edited by Howard_Sacks (edited 06-11-2004).]

well that makes sense. it was the answer I expected. I mean, if you cut enough off of a spring all you have is a metal donut and whats' the spring rate on that (it's rhetorical, I'm not really looking for an answer). I think the origional post was well intentioned but something of an oxymoron: daily driver + sports car handling. To bring the Fiero above the Chevette/Citation suspension level (yes for us lowly pre-88 owners) you're gonna have to sacrifice some comfort. Everyones' got a different level of comfort, right? What measurement of performance are we going after? Slalom speed? Cornering force? braking? What's your tolerance for vibration? Ground clearance (got speed bumps/potholes?) And the all important budget? You could convert to coil-overs or as Doug said: Add an 88. That was perfect! Is your car going to have to pass inspection? Like someone else said, if you race what class are you competing in? If I were to do it again, I wouldn't put poly in my front control arms I'd keep the stock rubber. I'd use polyurethane as I did in the sway bar and rear cradle, but I'd want Gerald Stvoriks' end link bushings for my front sway bar and his UHMW bushings for the rear a-arms...they don't squeak. My poly don't squeak (yet) but I put so much goop on them it'll be a while before I can tell. Oh, and I don't race on the track, and I don't own any books on metallurgy or quantum physics, so myopinion is worth less than two cents. I could run down to Barnes and Noble and buy a bunch of books, photograph them on my computer stand then return them after quoting whatever I wanted but then why would I really want to that? Oh, I love the internet....

As far as the suspension set up, I have seen George Ryans' coupe that he sold to Tom Hill. That puppy was so low he must've cut the bumpstops off up front. Talk about low Polar inertia! But one look tells me it would be suicide driving that on the street. Tom Hill and Greg Duncan have said they have different styles of driving that determine whether they use much rear say bar. Herb Adams manufactured a larger sway bar for the rear than the front for the Fiero as a set, yet GM didn't put one on the majority of the cars. I hear people rave about the handling with a stock bar added to the back, I've also heard about terminal oversteer coming on suddenly from these folks. It's all fun and games until you wreck your Fiero!

Remind me to give Oreif and Howard lots of room if I'm driving behind them both on the road....

[This message has been edited by USFiero (edited 06-11-2004).]

quote Originally posted by USFiero: ............. Talk about low Polar inertia! But one look tells me it would be suicide driving that on the street. ..............

I hope you don't get burned for making a statement (low polar inertia) that people can jump on AND........

quote Remind me to give Oreif and Howard lots of room if I'm driving behind them both on the road....

......here's your reminder!!!!

I'm not going to jump on him.

He must have meant to say, talk about a low CG.

Well, I just completed the 3 pages..... and I think I've figured it out!@!!!
Howard's suspension is set up to OFFSET his turbo LAG.......!
or maybe it's the other way around..... heheheh!
Sandy

quote Originally posted by RBeaubien: Not taken as a slam, but I already have far too much time and money in my 87 GT to stop and swap it all to an 88.

Understood.

quote I like the idea of swapping the front suspension to my chassis (most importantly for the upgraded brakes), but I have concerns with the front bearings. The new eBearing replacements state not for racing use. What do you use for front bearings? Do they stand up to the abuse of racing?

At Waterford last year Alan Hamilton went out and broke a brand new Ebearing in about 5 laps, causing their current disclaimer against racing. I think the cause of breakage is cornering force, and with Hoosiers, a well set up suspension, and a fast driver, Alan is putting more side load on the bearings than they were ever designed to handle. He also breaks stock bearings, but not as quickly. I've never broken any front bearings in my autocross car.

Alan has machined a couple front knuckles to accept Achieva front bearings. This is a new experiment but he hasn't broken any of these bearings yet. He did break a knuckle but hasn't determined if this was related to the modifications he did to it.

quote The front swap looks pretty straight forward. Looks like a couple of accurately drilled positioning holes are needed on the earlier chassis to line things up. Anything you can add to this?

I haven't done it but I was considering converting my '85 rally car to an '88 so I read up on it. Will's write up in the archives was very informative. It takes a lot more '88 parts than I would have guessed but since you have the whole car this won't be a problem.

David Gamache's more recent write up is also quite good and includes pictures.

If you've already read these then I'm afraid I don't have much to add.

I hope this helps,

Doug

Well people need to realize that if you want ultimate perfromance you need to pay for it. Having connections at shops will definitly reduce costs. And if you are capable you can install also to reduce your costs. Unless you get a rare deal were someone is dumping parts for nothing to free deal with fact that you will have to pay. By far the koni 5-way adjustables are the best product, also Suspension Techniques spring w/the lowest drop of 1.5" is what I strongly suggest. If you are very serious You can look at RCC suspension kits that are fulll on race engineered.!!!!! If you are on a budget well expect budgeted perfomance.

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: My 200k+ mile honda with stock springs and original dampers will did tripple digits on the on-ramps. It's really not impressive.

HAHAHAHA, I'd really like to see your 200K+ Honda with stock suspension get even over 40 mph let alone anywhere near triple digits on this:

http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?t=4&s=9&x=4148&y=46601&z=16&w=1

BTW ~ I take this exit everyday going to work.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 06-11-2004).]

TRIPLE DIGITS on stock susp. only if it was a straight shot. no twists no turns.

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: I'm not going to jump on him. He must have meant to say, talk about a low CG.

Howard got the joke. (A trash can lid placed flat on the ground has AWESOME Polar Inertia, right? Oh, and a low Center of Gravity too, for sure. Dunno about slip angles or bump steer though.)

[This message has been edited by USFiero (edited 06-14-2004).]