These products and variations of R134a and or R12 or R22 and others. PLEASE don't use these products because they are cheap. If they were that good and that stable, then don't you think the major car manufacturers would use it. Think of it..save $20 per car times thousands of cars. They certainly would use it if it were good. Many of these products work well, but deteriorate the hoses and inner aluminum tubing and cost 10 times the original savings to have everything replaced......including the compressor..hoses, evaporator core, condenser. Fortunately, not many people have used these products around here, but I've seen first hand the damage that can be done.

It's not worth it guyz........save $20 or $30 bucks and ends up costing 10 times that to put it back "right".

Phil

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86 GT TTops, 3.4 Auto.....bought from Doug of Fiero Warehouse

GM auto tech for 27 years. Specializing in electrical and computer problems. I will never be able to return as an auto tech again. I get EXTREME satisfaction helping others and will go to Extreme levels to help you if you need help. I have LOTS of free time on my hands. This forum and the help I give, allow me to have a purposeful life. Bring on the problems......LOL.

get real. grow up. a proper 134a retrofit is not that expensive. by that, I mean at a certified facility by an ASE mechanic. goodnight

quote Originally posted by FieroMac: get real. grow up. a proper 134a retrofit is not that expensive. by that, I mean at a certified facility by an ASE mechanic. goodnight

You're grumpy when your tired aren't you.

Kris

Actually the reasons for using R-134a are mainly bureaucratic. It's extremely cheap for manufacturers to use 134a because it's produced by the SAME COMPANY that produced R12 for all those years. It's interesting, while R12 depleats ozone, 134a contributes to global warming. It's also known that 134a is combustable and burns with an invisible flame.

Propane based R12 replacements do have a lower temperature at which they combust, however just about anything BUT R12 will burn. (Yes that includes 134a). However, not all R12 replacements are propane based.

Oil... (compressor lube)...
R12 was extremely useful in the fact that it did NOT pick up compressor oil. R134a requires special synthetic lube, which is still picks up. The recommended system flush for a 134a system is 2-3 years, otherwise you risk your compressor crapping out. (Was worse on Fords due to the type of oil Ford decided to use). Also known as "Ford Black Death" because of the hard black buildup in the compressors from the 134a mixing with the lubricant. There are only 2 types of oil for 134a.. pag and ester.. off-hand I don't recall the difference or who uses which.

Just my two bits.

Anyone want the real lowdown on "Drop in replacements"? Neither Freezone nor Freeze-12 are a dropin replacement as they claim anymore than any of the others that make this claim by claiming exemption from requirements they haven't met.

If you want to learn more that isn't being printed by shameless promoters... try these sites.

http://www.heco.net/TheTruth.htm Info

http://www.epatest.com/q_refblends.html Blend info from the EPA

http://www.autofrost.com/oil/ Oils and blends

I had a great one off a navy site but I went to verify it and it isn't working anymore... bummer.

My recommendation is to stick with the correct refrigerant (where legal, I know R-12 is not an option in Canada anymore) or convert to to R-134a. Use the correct fittings so whoever gets to work on it next knows what is in there and doesn't ruin their equipment. Remember that if you are planning on using a blend in conjunction with replacing parts, NO manufacture will warranty their components if you use a blend. The blend manufacturer may claim that they will cover it, but I don't buy that either... want to bet they will force you to provide scientific proof that their blend was the cause of the failure, and if you do... what coverage will you truly get?

I'm a member if iATN (international Automotive Technician's Network) and the overwelming reaction to blends amongst A/C professionals is to run and run fast from those promoting blends. Same goes for sealants in A/C systems. Outside of the people selling blends, I don't know of anyone with a real understanding of the issues they present that thinks they are a good idea. The main thing they have done is drive up the cost of legitimate A/C repair because now everyone needs a quality A/C identifier to try and protect their equipment from contamination and damage when they go to do repairs... including ones that aren't A/C related but require evacuating and recharging to accomplish. (some vehicles require this to replace the engine, transmission, heater cores, blower motors etc)

Hope this helps

Having just recently finished up my ODP course and recieved my liscense to purchase refrigerant chemicals in Canada I can possibley provide some additional light to this subject. R134a is really only used in North America. Most other places have switched over to HC22, which is neither bad for the Ozone Layer like R12 was, or bad in a global warming sense like R134a is. It is however a Propane Based refridgerant, which in some cases could cause some alarm. Of Course the instance of a fire caused by ones AC refridgerant is much lower then say gasoline vapours. The real reason we havent gone to these new fridgerants is because like stated above, is big business. I believe it is Dupont made, they made r12 also. They however do not hold pattents or the rights or whatever over HC22. Gov't will not allow another refridgerant used other then R134a because it will take money out of there pockets, its that plain and simple.

Plus, dont use those blends. They will cause degradation to your system. May as well bite the bullet and upgrade, either that or drive to Quebec(in Canada) or Mexico and get an R12 refill.

Later;

HC-22a and HC-12a are also blends but of hydrocarbons rather than HFC's. The U.S EPA bans the use of HC-12a to replace R-12 but it can be used to replace HFC-134a except in the states that do not allow it.

According to the EPA: The following 18 states ban the use of flammable refrigerants such as HC-12aŽ and DURACOOL 12aŽ in motor vehicle air conditioning, regardless of the original refrigerant: Arkansas, Arizona, Connecticut, Florida, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Maryland, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Wisconsin, Washington, and the District of Columbia.

Maybe we need to bring back those border inspection stations to make sure people from the 32 rogue states and Canada don't sneak HC A/C cars into Arizona.

edit: Just noticed that either the EPA thinks the District of Columbia is a state, or they can't count.

[This message has been edited by spark1 (edited 07-25-2004).]

I noticed that some of the newer retroft kits have a mixture of 134A and PAG oil in a can.

They say to vacuum the system down and add however many cans of the mix it requires to achieve the correct pressure.
They don't say anything about (not) mixing PAG with Ester or mineral oil. Is that a bad idea? Will it hurt anything?

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Raydar
88 3.4 coupe...........

Coming soon...
88 Formula, presently under the knife.
Read Nealz Nuze!

I converted from R-12 to R-134 a year ago, and man, I wish I kept the R-12. It was much cooler, even though it costed more to get the stuff.

The only real reason I did the conversion, was becuase I'm swaping to a 2.2 Ecotec 4 banger as we speak, and the only A/C compressors available for those motors are R-134, so I really had little choice.

Other than situations like mine, I don't recommend the conversion to anyone. Canada still sells R-12, drive up there.

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Petty Officer Michael C Casaceli
Patrol Squadron Ten, United States Navy
1988 Pontiac Fiero 2.5L, soon to be 2.2L ECOTEC TURBO (THE PROJECT HAS STARTED!!!)
1988 Oldsmobile Firenza 2.0L non-turbo (R.I.P.my beloved J-body. K.I.A. by a Ford)
1994 Chevy S-10 4.3, it's finally here, and it is gorgeous!