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TIPS ON MAKING MY CAR FASTER! by sonic50
Started on: 08-11-2004 08:07 PM
Replies: 51
Last post by: aaronrus on 08-15-2004 09:21 PM
GARY TUCKER
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Report this Post08-15-2004 12:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GARY TUCKERSend a Private Message to GARY TUCKERDirect Link to This Post
I put more than that in my 2.8....have everything performance I could find. whole thing dismantled and built form scratch with ALL new performance parts......I am satisfied with it.....NOT EVERYONE wants a bigger engine....more weight etc...
I also run a HEAD PIPE to eliminate the cat.....

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1988 Gary Tucker (GT)


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jstricker
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Report this Post08-15-2004 01:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jstrickerSend a Private Message to jstrickerDirect Link to This Post
Put me in the camp of wanting to know how to make 200 RWHP out of the 2.8 on $500. If it's juiced, then that don't count because SCCA doesn't even allow a bottle on the property at their events, much less hooked up in a car.

Many of you know the story of our 3.4L HT Crate engine in the Finale. Those that don't, the short version is that after about 5,000 miles the engine started using a quart of oil every tank of gas. Even with a VERY cooperative dealer and threats of lawsuits from two of my attorneys, GM held fast that there would be no warranty on the engine because we used the Fiero TPI system on it. My attorneys both agreed that we could beat them in court, but it would cost between $5K and $10K to get through the initial trial, IF they didn't appeal. Not really cost effective on an $1,800 engine. It has taught me a lesson about GM crate engines in the Fiero, though. Hopefully others consider it when making their choices as well.

But, back to our engine.

We swapped it out for a 4.9L Caddy and couldn't be happier with the new engine. This gave me a 3.4L as a doorstop. We decided that since we had the engine/drivetrain, we'd pull the Duke out of the race car and swap it in. After all, if it uses a quart of oil every tank of gas, and we only go through half a tank at an autocross, who cares? While the motor was out, we did pull the valve covers off and put new valve stem seals on the engine because we'd heard rumors that a batch of the 3.4's got out with no seals. That was not true in our case as it had decent umbrella seals on the intakes and quad rings on the exhausts. We replaced them anyway. When we put the engine in the race car, it didn't seem to be hitting on all six cylinders. The only explanation, since it ran OK in the Finale, was that I had a valve too tight. #4 cylinder was the offending culprit so we pulled the front valve cover off and reset the valves on that side. It didn't seem too tight, but when we started it up again it seemed to be better. (BTW, we checked compression before we reset the valves and #4 had 0 compression. After resetting, I didn't put the gauge on it again but it DID blow my finger out of the spark plug hole).

We drove it around the yard a bit and all seemed well. When we loaded the car on the trailer to get ready to go, it dropped out again. I was not amused and decided to just run the little POS until it blew up. We tried our best and it didn't blow, but it also didn't run very well as a V5. When we got home, we dropped the cradle again and pulled the engine down.

The back two cylinders had about a .015" ridge or better on them, the others less. The rod bearings looked very good. The mains showed some wear, but not unreasonable. Cam bearings were completely trashed. The reason we dropped the cylinder was that #4 had in it now a virtually 3 sided valve. It actually has a triangular appearance. If it laid just right, it would seal a bit, but mostly not at all. ALL of the intake guides are shot big time. The exhausts show wear with the old valves, but not bad. I was shocked at how much wear the engine showed considering the few amount of miles but most importantly at WHERE it showed the wear.

I know we ran it low on oil on a couple of occasions with it using that much and I expected the rod and mains to be trashed, but they weren't. With the condition of the rods and mains, you would expect the cam bearings to be OK but they were junk. I'm at a loss to explain the guide wear. We're in the process of rebuilding the engine right now and here's how we're doing it.

One new exhaust seat in the #4 cylinder where the screwed up valve was. All new exhaust valves which puts the ex guide/valve clearance to new specs. New Intake guides and intake valves. New seals, of course.

I'm keeping the factory 3.4L HT cam as it looks perfect and has virtually indentical specs as the Crane 260. Comp cams 1.6 roller tip rockers. Comp cams springs and pushrods. Pistons from ARI which are flat tops, .75mm oversize. Total seal gapless rings. The exhaust manifolds were already ported, so we're keeping them. I'm going to run a true dual exhaust, open, with a new pipe fabricated to come from the rear manifold to the back, not a big trick since the car has no trunk. I did some mild clean up work on the heads. I'm going to ceramic coat the combustion chambers, piston domes, and exhaust ports. Gasket matched the intake. I'm not going to use a bored throttle body and plenum because I don't think it's worth a single HP since nothing is being done to the snorkel area. (I do have a winter plan for the intake though, that will use the stock computer, injectors, and will flow everything the heads can take in. It is still in the planning stages, though, and will require some custom castings or a hell of a lot of CNC time with some aluminum billets. )

The engine had about 135 RWHP when it was very fresh. With the increased compression, open exhaust, mild porting, and 1.6 rockers I'm hoping that we can have an honest 150 RWHP which, IMHO, is the upper limit of the amount of air the upper plenum can flow (what are your thoughts on that, Oreif?) And that 150 RWHP will come at a fairly low rpm, probably around 4,000 or so.

If that's the case, we should be competitive in EMod on power, if we can get our weight down to minimums. We'll see what we'll see. I will be putting it on the dyno at some point when I'm done to see how much difference it all made.

John Stricker

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The Punisher
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Report this Post08-15-2004 01:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for The PunisherSend a Private Message to The PunisherDirect Link to This Post
a ported tb and a matching intake from darrel will add hp despite what you think. I dyno tested it on a stock 2.8 liter engine and I got moer power from it. So it will give more power to a 3.4 as well.

And why only settle for mild port work on the heads? You have the heads out of the car! Port them puppies up as much as you can!! Thats where all your power comes from! Why dump all this money back into a 3.4 if you aren't going to get anymore power from it? A mild port won't do anything. What does a mild port include anyways?? A gasket match? That wont' do anything. Please do it right since the engine is dissasembled and port the heads all the way. There is a big difference in power between trully ported heads and just heads that have been cleaned up a bit..

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JM / SH

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[This message has been edited by The Punisher (edited 08-15-2004).]

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jstricker
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Report this Post08-15-2004 01:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jstrickerSend a Private Message to jstrickerDirect Link to This Post
Because SCCA limits ports in some classes to gasket matching and going 1" into the heads. I actually pushed that rule a little bit, but tried to stay within the spirit, if not the letter, or the rule.

I ran my 3.4L on the dyno the same afternoon as Rare87GT ran his. The only real difference between the two engines was he had a DM ported intake and TB. The engines were within 1HP or one another. It does no good to port upstream when you can't open the restrictions downstream.

I'm still waiting for your explanation of that 200 RWHP for $500.

John Stricker

 
quote
Originally posted by The Punisher:

a ported tb and a matching intake from darrel will add hp despite what you think. I dyno tested it on a stock 2.8 liter engine and I got moer power from it. So it will give more power to a 3.4 as well.

And why only settle for mild port work on the heads? You have the heads out of the car! Port them puppies up as much as you can!! Thats where all your power comes from! Why dump all this money back into a 3.4 if you aren't going to get anymore power from it? A mild port won't do anything. What does a mild port include anyways?? A gasket match? That wont' do anything. Please do it right since the engine is dissasembled and port the heads all the way. There is a big difference in power between trully ported heads and just heads that have been cleaned up a bit..

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The Punisher
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Report this Post08-15-2004 02:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for The PunisherSend a Private Message to The PunisherDirect Link to This Post
well I picked up 4 hp on a stock 2.8 liter with a darrel morse tb. This is without the gasket matching of the tb to the intake that darrel does as well. Just the ported tb. A 3.4 can expect more gains

And I dint' have any porting downstream on my intake either.

Your engine and Rares engine you can't compare. There could have been slightly different variations in timing, or maybe even assembly and clearences that could make both engines the same amount of power.

What you should have done was dynoed your car and then put a ported tb on it. Thats the true way to do it. Not base the results off of someone elses engine to yours. Hell maybe your engine was already a tad bit stronger anyways then Rare's. A wed engine per say.

If you still don't want to believe they work then so be it. but with a matching plenum you will be down about 10 hp. but hey thats your choice

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jstricker
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Report this Post08-15-2004 02:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jstrickerSend a Private Message to jstrickerDirect Link to This Post
I've done as much research and work on the stock intake as anyone here. You're right, that would have been a more accurate way to check the two variations, but it's still pretty darn close. You say you picked up 4 hp. I say that's less than 3% and within a margin of error that's not repeatable. I've seen HP numbers change that much in 15 minutes based on temperature.

You're right, it is my choice. I've been doing this stuff since you were just a glimmer in your daddy's eye. There's a difference in building a class legal engine and just slapping some parts into one. I never claimed mine was the only way, or even the best way. I said this is how I'm doing it and I'll be glad to report what it costs and how much power it makes, just like I've done in God knows how many threads before this.

Other than run other people down, what is it that you've done again?

Still waiting on that 200 RWHP for $500 explanation. So far, all I hear is a bunch of talk and no show.

John Stricker

 
quote
Originally posted by The Punisher:

well I picked up 4 hp on a stock 2.8 liter with a darrel morse tb. This is without the gasket matching of the tb to the intake that darrel does as well. Just the ported tb. A 3.4 can expect more gains

And I dint' have any porting downstream on my intake either.

Your engine and Rares engine you can't compare. There could have been slightly different variations in timing, or maybe even assembly and clearences that could make both engines the same amount of power.

What you should have done was dynoed your car and then put a ported tb on it. Thats the true way to do it. Not base the results off of someone elses engine to yours. Hell maybe your engine was already a tad bit stronger anyways then Rare's. A wed engine per say.

If you still don't want to believe they work then so be it. but with a matching plenum you will be down about 10 hp. but hey thats your choice

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86fieroEarl
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Report this Post08-15-2004 06:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86fieroEarlSend a Private Message to 86fieroEarlDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Oreif:


If I remember correctly he using the juice (NOS). 1FST2M6 had a juiced 2.8L and he was running in the 12's in the 1/4 mile. He had somewhere around 250hp to the wheels (yes he had it dyno'd) For about $400 you can get a basic kit. You can search the archives and read all about it and see the dyno graph.

Yeah but how long will that tired 2.8 last on juice? I can put nos on my 4.9 and brag also. On a rebuilt 2.8 It might be safe juicing it but on a tired one? I know it is atleast $1200bucks for a rebuild (im guessing more) and another $400bucks for the juice will put you at maybe $1600 and a shorter lifespan of a 2.8 I would feel more safe juicing a tired 4.9 then a tired 2.8

You can juice up a 3 cyl geo and have it run 200hps The answer is HOW LONG WILL IT LAST?

[This message has been edited by 86fieroEarl (edited 08-15-2004).]

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DRA
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Report this Post08-15-2004 07:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DRAClick Here to visit DRA's HomePageSend a Private Message to DRADirect Link to This Post
I was still waiting to hear how I could build a 200hp 2.8 for $500 bucks but at this point I'm assuming that the build is simply a 100 shot of laughing gas on a tired 2.8.
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jstricker
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Report this Post08-15-2004 07:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jstrickerSend a Private Message to jstrickerDirect Link to This Post
That's my point exactly, Earl.

Some sanctioning bodies don't allow N2O at all, like SCCA. If the 200 RWHP is juiced, then to compare that to a bone stock 4.9L isn't an accurate comparison at all since, with a 75hp shot, our Finale would have 250 RWHP and most likely be in the high 12's too.

In my case, the things I'm doing to our 3.4L would be considered "budget", and it still ain't cheap. Boring $75, guides $50, seat $25, 3 angle valve job, $50, new valves, $125, Pistons, $225, Timing chain set, $100, Roller tip Rockers, $115, etc., etc., etc. And with all that, I'm HOPING for 150 RWHP, which I think is realistic and should last several seasons. I'm going to end up with, I'm sure, $1,200 by the time I'm done. I have $1900 in the 4.9L swap and it has an extra 40-50 hp and TONS more torque. Only problem with that is, that I wouldn't be legal in SM2 class and I'm trying to keep the car legal in multiple classes, if possible.

John Stricker

 
quote
Originally posted by 86fieroEarl:


Yeah but how long will that tired 2.8 last on juice? I can put nos on my 4.9 and brag also. On a rebuilt 2.8 It might be safe juicing it but on a tired one? I know it is atleast $1200bucks for a rebuild (im guessing more) and another $400bucks for the juice will put you at maybe $1600 and a shorter lifespan of a 2.8 I would feel more safe juicing a tired 4.9 then a tired 2.8

You can juice up a 3 cyl geo and have it run 200hps The answer is HOW LONG WILL IT LAST?

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Primaris
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Report this Post08-15-2004 07:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PrimarisClick Here to visit Primaris's HomePageSend a Private Message to PrimarisDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jstricker:
... that I wouldn't be legal in SM2 class and I'm trying to keep the car legal in multiple classes, if possible.

John Stricker

Are you sure about not being legal in SM2? I think you can use any GM engine and FI it to boot.

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jstricker
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Report this Post08-15-2004 07:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jstrickerSend a Private Message to jstrickerDirect Link to This Post
16.1.D.1

Engine block must be a production unit manufactured and badged the same as the original standard or optional engine for that model. Badges that exist as marketing aliases for the manufacturer (Honda/Acura, Toyota/Lexus.......)will be recognized as equivalents. Swaps involving makes related only at a corporate level are not recognized as equivalents.

Even using the 3.4L crate engine is pretty iffy in SM2, going by the rules, but at least it would be something open to debate. There would be no debate about a Cadillac engine in a Pontiac when that engine wasn't ever offered in even a Pontiac, much less a Fiero. Intakes are still wide open on it, though, and I have plans for that. When I did the heads, I did them with the intent that if I wanted to go back further in classing, I could rebuild a stock 2.8L shortblock and then swap the heads, without that additional expense.

John Stricker

 
quote
Originally posted by Primaris:


Are you sure about not being legal in SM2? I think you can use any GM engine and FI it to boot.

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Report this Post08-15-2004 09:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronrusSend a Private Message to aaronrusDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fastback 86:


Don't know exactly. If you used one that you can prove (ie have VIN # and what not) came from an F-body then it should be ok as far as I know. But that means N/A 3800 only, unless you can find an aftermarket, CA smog approved Supercharger for the 3800. You can't use a stock 3800SC because those only came in cars with Auto transmissions.


who gives a ****.. teh guy lives in GA, not CA

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