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3800 SC: OBDI or OBDII? My recommendations... by Darth Fiero
Started on: 09-14-2004 10:52 PM
Replies: 9
Last post by: LoW_KeY on 09-16-2004 08:31 PM
Darth Fiero
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Report this Post09-14-2004 10:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageSend a Private Message to Darth FieroDirect Link to This Post
Over the past few weeks I have gotten quite a few emails on this subject concerning the Fiero swaps. Personally, I use the 94-95 OBDI 3800 PCM on all of my 3800SC swaps, but it does have its limitations. With that being said, there are pros and cons to both types of systems so allow me to describe your options with each:

OBDI

The 94-95 OBDI computer is a passenger compartment mounted computer with a removable mem-cal (chip) assembly. It does NOT require any OBDII-specific sensor monitoring capability, which in plain english means there is less wiring involved. This computer will fit in the stock Fiero ECM mounting location and it accepts the common ECM wiring connector terminals like those used on the stock 2.8L Fiero computer (although the plastic connectors are different). This computer was designed to control the 3800 Series I and II n/a engines, as well as the 3800 Series I SC engine. I have also successfully reprogrammed this computer system to work with the 3800 Series II SC and 3800 Series II Turbo engines. This computer can be reprogrammed to run the 3800 Series III engine so long as you use a cable-operated throttle body.

With that being said, it does have limitations. First and foremost, this computer is not compatible with the 4T65-E transmission. However, it will control the 4T60-E transmission, as well as work with any non-electronic auto or any manual transmission. This computer also has a tuning limitation concerning the rev limiter. Currently, I cannot set the rev limiter any higher than about 6400 rpm (this could change as I and others do more research into this computer system). However, I do have the capability of disabling the rev limiter altogether if you wish to rev the engine higher. Concerning other tuning aspects, the sky is pretty much the limit as far as timing and fuel amoung other things. I like using this computer because it allows me to switch out the chips easily. This can be very useful in tuning on the dyno or at the track, or if you want to be able to swap in a race gas chip for racing use without having to reflash the whole computer.

OBDII

There are a number of different OBDII computers for the 3800. First, the 1996 computer is designed to only work with the 4T60-E transmission. I am sure it can be reprogrammed to work with a manual or non-electronic auto but I am not aware of many aftermarket tuners who are tinkering with this system. The 1997 computer is designed to operate the 4T65-E trans, and like the 96 unit it can be reprogrammed to run the other transmissions as well. The 98-up L67 (3800 Series II SC) computers have the same capabilites as the earlier units, but these newer systems are designed to work in conjunction with a body control module, ABS computer, and possibly other components that share the Serial Data Line. If you plan on using this system in a Fiero without these other components you may have to have the computer reprogrammed to delete these other systems or it may not function properly. Not all of these computers work the same and this depends on year/make/model of the car in which you get the computer from.

GM released the 3800 Series III engines in 2004. These engines used fly-by-wire throttle control which works in conjunction with a gas pedal position sensor to determine optimal throttle opening for minimal emissions during all driving aspects. If you want to use fly-by-wire throttle control you MUST use a compatible 2004-up computer system, no earlier computer will operate the electronic throttle. However, as I stated before, there are adapter plates available for about $100 that will allow you to use an earlier LS1 or L67 cable-operated throttle body on this engine. The earlier computers can easily be reprogrammed to work on the Series III engines.

The biggest issues I see with the OBDII systems are as follows: These computers must be reprogrammed (flashed); there is no removable chip. This means that if you don't have the ability to flash your own computer, you must send the ENTIRE unit off to someone to have it done. These computers are also physically larger than the OBDI computer which puts limits on where you can mount it. However it is a sealed unit which means it can be mounted inside the car or outside in the engine compartment. These computers also have more wiring involved, depending on year/make/model they are. You can have these systems reprogrammed to disable all of the OBDII sensor monitoring such as the post cat-converter O2 sensor, enhanced EVAP emissions monitoring sensors, etc just to name a few; which means you don't necessarily need all of this extra wiring.


So basically to boil it all down the only thing an OBDII computer can do that an OBDI computer cannot do is control a 4T65-E transmission. As far as performance and drivability there is virtually no difference between the two types of systems and there capabilites. In fact, some of the fastest 3800 powered Fieros here on PFF are running OBDI systems. But to be fair, that doesn't mean you can't do the same with an OBDII system. Just depends on what trans you want to run.

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rroberts
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Report this Post09-14-2004 11:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rrobertsSend a Private Message to rrobertsDirect Link to This Post
That's good information, I must have the odd 94 computer because it is larger then the Fiero computer. I installed mine in the area of the trunk blower motor. That helped out great on the wiring. I would like to get the car up to you before you escape the area. And have you hook it up the your laptop. I'm off to my weekly Iowa City stay and have been putting in some late hours. So I haven't had the chance to work on mine this week, But that's what the weekends are for. This was two 3800 installs in one month and mostly on weekends so I think I did well.
Thanks for all the great information you always give. You have a great talent.
Rod
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birdpoo
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Report this Post09-15-2004 02:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for birdpooSend a Private Message to birdpooDirect Link to This Post
good info.

when i used to goof around at a certain place & time, i formerly designed cad drawings & fabricated engine harnesses for OD1, OD2, systems that involved the 3.4L dohc, 3.8L naturally aspirated /supercharged, haltech ecms, & the norhtstar. this was hardly a challenge having been an avi/calib tech. since moving on, i never had the chance to screw around with an OBD3 3.8L --which i dont forsee an OBD1 not having the capability of Efficiently controlling the new block(OBD3). (im sure obd1 sensors can be installed onto the obd3 block-). i am highly aware of permutations of donor AT or Man trannies, ecms, & the different fieros used for these mods---

personally if i didnt live in such a nazi-smog controlled stuck-up state, i would dump a good ole carburated small block into mine
given its simplicity & easy electronics 'faking' hazzles, by far, the ecm of choice is OBD1...

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skitime
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Report this Post09-15-2004 07:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for skitimeSend a Private Message to skitimeDirect Link to This Post
Great post Darth! Just a small sub note to the above. The OBDI only uses one knock sensor instead of 2 like the OBDII. I am using the OBDI in case anyone is wondering.

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Master Tuner Akimoto
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Report this Post09-15-2004 07:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Master Tuner AkimotoClick Here to visit Master Tuner Akimoto's HomePageSend a Private Message to Master Tuner AkimotoDirect Link to This Post
Very informative and a + for you will bookmark this as a 3800 II is my next project.
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flyingbob
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Report this Post09-15-2004 12:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for flyingbobSend a Private Message to flyingbobDirect Link to This Post
Good post Darth I have a OBDII system I will send to you in the next week or two but will call you first to set it up .
Thanks Bob
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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post09-15-2004 03:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageSend a Private Message to Darth FieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rroberts:

That's good information, I must have the odd 94 computer because it is larger then the Fiero computer. I installed mine in the area of the trunk blower motor. Rod

No you don't have an odd one, they (94-95) are all that big and they do fit in the stock Fiero ECM location...BARELY. But hey the trunk area is ok too if you don't mind it being there.

 
quote
Originally posted by skitime:

The OBDI only uses one knock sensor instead of 2 like the OBDII.

All 94-95 Vin L (3800TPI) and vin 1 (3800SC) use one knock sensor. However if you happened to get ahold of a 95 vin K (3800S2) then it does use two knock sensors even with the OBDI computer. Actual number and type of knock sensors that are required are determined by the knock filter module that is part of the mem-cal assembly. Since we are on this subject (glad skitime brought it up), I would like to share with you how all of this works. The knock filter module sends out a bias voltage signal to the knock sensor(s). The knock sensor(s) have a certain resistance value that pulls this bias voltage down to somewhere around 2.5 volts, depending on what system you are using. The knock filter module monitors this voltage and if it is above or below the specified range it will set a code 43 and retard the timing by 10 degrees all the time. If the system is working, the knock filter module monitors this bias voltage to "listen" for detonation. The knock sensors are basically microphones which cause detonation or pinging to alter this bias voltage signal which in turn tells the PCM there is knock occuring and how bad it is.

 
quote
Originally posted by flyingbob:

Good post Darth I have a OBDII system I will send to you in the next week or two but will call you first to set it up .
Thanks Bob

Bob, when you are ready shoot me a PM or email and I will give you my contact info so we can get in touch.

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Jncomutt
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Report this Post09-15-2004 03:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttDirect Link to This Post
Good Post... Thanks for the info. I plan on going OBD I once I get my parts situationed. I also plan to be using a manual trans.
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Report this Post09-16-2004 08:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SOULCRUSHERClick Here to visit SOULCRUSHER's HomePageSend a Private Message to SOULCRUSHERDirect Link to This Post
Believe me, the easily swapped chips is great advantage to the OBD 1, especially when you are throwing on mods and tuning! I speak from personal experience.:wink:

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USED to be NOS3800
1988 Purple Fiero GTw/SC3800 conversion
Best ET with 3.0 pulley and 1.9 rockers: 12.74@105mph
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LoW_KeY
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Report this Post09-16-2004 08:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LoW_KeYSend a Private Message to LoW_KeYDirect Link to This Post
awesome I know some people are stuck on OBD 2 and think it's the only way to go, this really explains it all. I have to hurry and send my chip to you, get my timing bumped a few degrees.

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