85 Fiero GT with a 2.8L V6 and muncie 4-speed...

Worked on it a little today prepairing the stock powertrain for removal in favor of this:

2002 GTP L67/4T65-E

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power corrupts. absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Custom Chip Burning | Fiero Engine Conversions | Turbocharging | www.gmtuners.com

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 10-01-2004).]

i've seen that engine bay before...(tries to remember whose it was) lol, looks like another great build thread!

James

Thank you for posting this, it put a smile on my face
I am looking forward to reading all about it.
I whish I would give you another +

Would you happen to sell an intake tube that you have on the old 2.8? It looks like it would work great for the new L67. Can you hook me up?

Thanks,
Greg

Actually for now we will be using the intake tube that is currently on the 2.8L, but in the future it will be getting replaced with another one because the current one has been massaged to clear the clutch slave cyl. I can put you in touch with the owner of the car and you can discuss it with him if you like.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Actually for now we will be using the intake tube that is currently on the 2.8L, but in the future it will be getting replaced with another one because the current one has been massaged to clear the clutch slave cyl. I can put you in touch with the owner of the car and you can discuss it with him if you like.

What are you going to replace it with? Anything I can get soon?

Thanks,
Greg

Well, after having this motor and trans. for about a year I'm finally getting them installed. I was so lucky to have a person so close with so much expertise and does such detailed work. After our meetings and all the phone calls and e-mails, I knew this was the right man to do the job.
Pete Disbennett

Could you please post a close up picture of where you mounted your fuel pressure regulator as I am deciding either to mount it down by the fuel filter or where you have it. Nice job on your motor. looks like mine as well

UPDATE...

Got the stock powertrain and cradle pulled today, after having to cut one of the front cradle bolts off since it was rusted to the bushing sleeve. I'm sure most of us have been there

Tomorrow I will clean up the cradle, replace the front bushings and prep it for the L67/4T65-E.

quote Originally posted by dizmon_85GT: Greg, I will be replacing the intake tube someday, but if you want one they are on e-bay all the time. They are the intakes for 89-91 Honda CRX. just do a search on e-bay. Pete

I bought one off E-bay, but it is only 2.5". I need a 3" at least with my motor. PM me if anyone has a source that could help me out. Sorry to intrude on the topic.

Thanks!
Greg

Cleaned the cradle today and changed out the front bushings without too much hassle. Got the cradle mocked up and leveled and started placement of the engine/trans. I will start fabricating mount brackets tomorrow.

Speaking of mounts, in case anyone has missed what I have used in the past here they are:

These are pictures of the engine mounts used in the 1975 Dodge Pickup 2WD 318V8. They retail for $3.99 ea at O'Reilly's. As you can see they are fairly small and compact and can work almost anywhere.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Cleaned the cradle today and changed out the front bushings without too much hassle. Got the cradle mocked up and leveled and started placement of the engine/trans. I will start fabricating mount brackets tomorrow. Speaking of mounts, in case anyone has missed what I have used in the past here they are: These are pictures of the engine mounts used in the 1975 Dodge Pickup 2WD 318V8. They retail for $3.99 ea at O'Reilly's. As you can see they are fairly small and compact and can work almost anywhere.

Darth,
Do those motor mounts have a metal safety catch or pin so that if the rubber breaks they wont completely separate?

Not that I know of, I think that was a function of the brackets they bolted to on the original Dodge truck. With that being said it should be noted that I have yet to break or wear out one of these mounts.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Not that I know of, I think that was a function of the brackets they bolted to on the original Dodge truck. With that being said it should be noted that I have yet to break or wear out one of these mounts.

Cool, I suppose I could put a bolt, a couple of washers and a nutt on them just in case but, if you havent broken one then they must be pretty tough

trust me they are pretty hard, not stock Fiero trans mounts rubber, much harder than that but not quite poly.

I used one of the Dodge mounts on the "fourth" cradle mount that I installed on my SC3800 conversion. They are pretty hard. I had the same concern about it not breaking, but after about 1500+ miles, it has proven to be quite tough. Granted, the fourth mount does not take nearly as much abuse as the other ones. It is there more to stabilize the engine more than mount it. I put it in the same location as the shock looking torque strut on the 2.8 engines.

The 79 Dodge mounts have the safety so that they will not fly appart in a failure.
You are going to pay a bit more for them. But that is up you and how you want to install them.
We have broken two of the 75s on the 4.9 but then the car is driven very hard. Along with some clutches
also. LOL
I like useing the Dodge mounts also, Put the safety mount on the front and the regular mount on the back if you want
to save a dime.
Thanks Darth, for the great idea with the mounts.

What all did you do to the cradle before you were ready to install the engine?
Rod

quote Originally posted by rroberts: What all did you do to the cradle before you were ready to install the engine? Rod

Just cleaned it up and replaced the front cradle bushings. Now what I do, to get a reference point for leveling, is slide a rod or piece of metal brake line thru the front cradle bushing holes. This will give you a great 2-axis leveling reference point in which you can level the engine and transmission to. I think this is a very important step that some people neglect in their swaps. While it is not critical to get your engine installed straight and level especially when you consider the angles the the CV drive axles can work with, it sure does look better at the car shows.

Today I got the front trans mount bracket fabricated and started removing some of the serpentine assy's so I could build the front engine mount.

Today I got the front motor mount fabricated as well. I also added the stock trans mount support shock absorber to the front trans mount.

Yes, those are two dodge truck mounts per mount, and I only do that on the front. My experience with these mounts is they are very difficult to crush or compress, but a little easier to pull apart. Since the front mounts take the brunt of the pulling-apart torque (under full throttle excursions), I usually build these up stronger. I seriously doubt anyone will be able to break this mount setup, the way I have it designed, if so I will buy that person a case of beer. Oh yea the trans mount shock absorber will also help to limit the movement should the mounts fail.

so you are planning to sell these?

Looking real nice Ryan. I was wondering what you were going to do with that shock/strut mount. I too believe those truck mounts will do the job. Getting more excited everytime I see an update. Thanks

quote Originally posted by Kohburn: so you are planning to sell these?

Perhaps some day, but right now all I have to work with is a sawzall, hand drill, and bench vise so this kind of fabrication takes a lot of time. I probably spent over 3 hours on just the front trans mount alone. For the price I would have to charge no one would probably buy them. However, I do plan to open my shop next year which means I will be purchasing a lot of machining equipment, if this is the case I might consider selling these mounts outright. But for now to get them you have to have me do the swap.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: but right now all I have to work with is a sawzall, hand drill, and bench vise...

I just hate it when i have to wait for my dewalt batteries to recharge so I can sawzall and hand drill more... just wish i had a bench or better yet a bench vise!

a good bench vise is like 80$ too

i have a band saw.. you should pick up an innexpensive one from http://www.grizzly.com/

like this one http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?itemnumber=G1010

i have their 3 wheel wood working one but its no good for steel (turns too fast) - works on aluminum though

Darth,
I sent a PM regarding some tuning and ecm questions.

btw, I like the dodge mounts. Seems like quite a few people have been using them lately. GSXRBobby and I will likely be using them for his northstar swap.

Got the left rear trans mount completely done today but was only able to finish half of the right rear trans mount before I ran out of welding wire, so that will have to wait until tomorrow.

The stock 84-87 cradle has pleanty of room for one of these dodge motor mounts to sit inside the mount pocket, all you have to do is drill a hole. Also, notice the extra reinforcement bars I welded in since there will be a lot of downward force in this area any time the engine is under load.

Also built the bracket that bolts to the trans. In GM's infinite wisdom, none of the 3 bolt bosses that are in this location are cast to the same depth, so I had to use spacers for two of the bolts. The slot in the mount makes it easier to get the trans off and on the cradle.

looking good

Finished up the mounts today. Pics of the right rear trans mount...

With the mounts done, there are only two things left to do before the engine can be installed in the car. First, since we are not using the OEM 3800 tensioner bracket, I needed to figure out a way to get the heater hoses plumbed to the engine. The solution was a 3/4" pipe thread tap.

Last but not least, I had to make sure to prime the oil pump. While this can be done in the car, I prefer to do it with the engine sitting outside the car in case oil pressure will not build with cranking alone. I did get the oil pressure to come up with just cranking, but if you can't, you will need to manually prime the oil pump.

There are several ways to do this but the easiest I have found is to do the following:

1) Take your oil filter off (or use a new one), you will several holes around the outside of the large threaded hole. These outside holes typically have a rubber seal under them that act as a 1-way check valve. I recommend using a piece of a plastic wire tie and sticking it thru one of the holes to prop open the check valve. IF YOU SKIP THIS STEP THE OIL PUMP WILL NOT PRIME. Fill the oil filter with oil and reinstall.

2) Remove the oil pressure sender and thread in a hose barb connection. It really doesn't matter what size barb you use so long as it has the correct thread for the hole. Connect a length of clear tubing to the barb fitting and connect the other end to a funnel.

3) Pour motor oil into the funnel and fill the clear tubing and approx 1/2 of the funnel. If necessary, have an assistant help you.

4) Using a rachet, socket, or equiv, turn the crankshaft counterclockwise (backwards) slowly. The oil level in the funnel and tube should begin to drop. Once the oil level gets down towards the sender fitting on the engine, STOP. Be sure not to suck air into the sender hole.

5) Disconnect your hose and fittings and reinstall the sender. At this time you can also remove the plastic wire tie from the oil filter and reinstall it.

6) Disable the ignition and fuel systems and crank the engine until oil pressure comes up.

There you have it, my "easy" way of priming the oil pump.

double post!!

I think the forum is broken for me. Is something going on with it?

[This message has been edited by shop_rat45 (edited 10-08-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Erik: Darth, Do those motor mounts have a metal safety catch or pin so that if the rubber breaks they wont completely separate?

Went to the track today with my 3.4 DOHC / 5-speed SE and the wifey took her L36 powered 2m6. Both cars are equipped with the dodge truck motor mounts. To my surprise both cars suffered mount failures after repeated hard launches. My 3.4 DOHC had one of these dodge truck mounts on the front trans mount and I ripped it in two after dumping the clutch at 3000rpm. This was probably due to a "design flaw" on my part in the way I had the mount placed on the brackets. I will redesign this mounting system for this vehicle at a later time. I think the problem here was the mount was already stressed at the angle I had it mounted at and the shock of the hard launch broke it.

The L36 suffered a mount failure under the A/C compressor. Unlike my turbo 3800, and this 3800SC swap I only put 1 mount in this location on the L36. The L36 also does NOT have a dog-bone setup so all the stress of the repeated launches at the track tore it. I will be replacing this mount and in addition either adding another mount at the same location, or adding the 2.8L Fiero shock absorber mount to help absorb the shock and limit the travel.

Despite all of this I will be looking into the 79 mounts that were mentioned to see if I can use these as a substitute. But this is WHY I like to go to the track and do some testing. Here is my personal example of how lessons learned in racing can translate into a better product that leaves the shop.

This 3800SC (L67) / 4T65-E swap has a far stronger mounting system than even my 3800 Turbo, which has gone 12.38sec in the 1/4 without any mounting failures. I do not anticipate any problems with the mounts on this latest swap but if they do occur, I will fix the problem with an upgrade. Its all part of the learning and periodic product upgrade process.

It was a bit disappointing to have to leave the track two hours earlier than planned, but I guess that gets Darth back to work on this latest project sooner. I'm just like a wife aren't I? Anyway, I don't know the owner very well, but I really like this project. I just like the way the engine looks with the supercharger on and it just has that look of being ready to race, not quite sure exactly why, but I like it.

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http://dtcc.cz28.com/85FieroL36

Hi Darth Fiero,

thanks for the mount info. i will be using six of these mounts on my aurora. four of them angled and two flat. do see any issues with this? I don't plan on running the car at the track more than two or three times just to see what it will do.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/049859.html the angled mount pics are at the bottom of the first page and the flat mounts are part way down the 3rd page.

[This message has been edited by cptsnoopy (edited 10-09-2004).]

Sorry to here about your mounts. From what I was reading they only had one mount and your turbo and my supercharged has two. I know I will not be doing much hard launching and with the automatic it should not stress them as much. I'm feeling confident that with the two on the one side that does the pulling that it will not fail.
Things are looking good! I like the pipe thread for the heater hose. I guess we were right about 3/4" being the correct size.
I'm keeping my eyes on this write-up and getting excited everyday. Keep up the great work!!!

quote Originally posted by rroberts: The 79 Dodge mounts have the safety so that they will not fly appart in a failure. You are going to pay a bit more for them. But that is up you and how you want to install them. We have broken two of the 75s on the 4.9 but then the car is driven very hard. Along with some clutches also. LOL I like useing the Dodge mounts also, Put the safety mount on the front and the regular mount on the back if you want to save a dime. Thanks Darth, for the great idea with the mounts. What all did you do to the cradle before you were ready to install the engine? Rod

Just want to give credit to Rod for telling us about the 79 Dodge truck mounts. I bought one today, they cost $8.99 at O'Reilly Auto Parts.

As you can see the 79 Dodge mounts have a safety catch, or stretch limiter integrated in their design. This should help prevent failures from occuring at all just because it will not allow the mount to over-stretch.

I got the L36 failure delt with and I think I found a cause. One side of the rubber pulled completely away from the metal. It appeared that during the manufacturing process there was not enough glue or vulcanization for this mount because most of the rubber was undamaged, and the opposite face on the metal bracket was clean with no sign there was ever any glue there. My hunch is this was a defective mount from the beginning which contributed to the failure.

I did get to work on the L67 swap some today. It is now installed in the car...

I still have some final leveling to do but this is pretty much how it is going to sit in the car. This powertrain is mounted as low as possible on the cradle, any lower and the oil and trans pan would be below the bottom of the cradle.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Went to the track today with my 3.4 DOHC / 5-speed SE and the wifey took her L36 powered 2m6. Both cars are equipped with the dodge truck motor mounts. To my surprise both cars suffered mount failures after repeated hard launches. My 3.4 DOHC had one of these dodge truck mounts on the front trans mount and I ripped it in two after dumping the clutch at 3000rpm. This was probably due to a "design flaw" on my part in the way I had the mount placed on the brackets. I will redesign this mounting system for this vehicle at a later time. I think the problem here was the mount was already stressed at the angle I had it mounted at and the shock of the hard launch broke it. The L36 suffered a mount failure under the A/C compressor. Unlike my turbo 3800, and this 3800SC swap I only put 1 mount in this location on the L36. The L36 also does NOT have a dog-bone setup so all the stress of the repeated launches at the track tore it. I will be replacing this mount and in addition either adding another mount at the same location, or adding the 2.8L Fiero shock absorber mount to help absorb the shock and limit the travel. Despite all of this I will be looking into the 79 mounts that were mentioned to see if I can use these as a substitute. But this is WHY I like to go to the track and do some testing. Here is my personal example of how lessons learned in racing can translate into a better product that leaves the shop. This 3800SC (L67) / 4T65-E swap has a far stronger mounting system than even my 3800 Turbo, which has gone 12.38sec in the 1/4 without any mounting failures. I do not anticipate any problems with the mounts on this latest swap but if they do occur, I will fix the problem with an upgrade. Its all part of the learning and periodic product upgrade process.

Darth,
I was wondering about those mounts, Would it be possible to drill a couple of holes in them and use a couple of bolts nuts and washers to limit the amount of shear and stretch? They look like cool mounts being low profile and all it would be nice to use them and not have to worry about them breaking.

quote Originally posted by cptsnoopy: Hi Darth Fiero, thanks for the mount info. i will be using six of these mounts on my aurora. four of them angled and two flat. do see any issues with this? I don't plan on running the car at the track more than two or three times just to see what it will do. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/049859.html the angled mount pics are at the bottom of the first page and the flat mounts are part way down the 3rd page.

PM sent.

That's sure going to look nice everytime I pop the hood!