Actually, at the time it let go it really wasn't under alot of boost. I was driving I was in third gear and just rolled into the throttle. "Kaboom" came at about 5000rpms. For the bolt to break like it appears to have, would think there was just a flaw somewhere. ARP is good stuff, but things happen.

Bill

quote Originally posted by Key Of David: Either that or less boost? What is better than ARP?

7/16" ARP bolts.

Have them in my rods so my SD4 won't grenade (that would suck)

You could start another thread...It's getting kinda hard to find anything in particular now in this one.

I'll probably start a new thread, but this time with more pictures detailing almost every little step I take, even thing as simple as new brackets. Hopefully ARP can tell me a little more about what happened. By the way -- Max boost was set at 21psi, but I don't think that it hit that from what my dad told me.
--Bryson

bryson,
where did you get the tubes made that are welded to the exhaust flange?
I would like to get a set of those made out of 1 3/4 321 stainless for my quad turbo project.
Thanks,
Enrico
Quad4racer@aol.com

Don't know where he got his, but Burns Stainless is a good place to get exhaust tubing and accessories:

http://www.burnsstainless.com/

Bryce
88 GT

Bryson , Rej,

Sorry, guys I just found out. Haven't been posting much these days. Is there anything left that can be salvaged and put onto the other engine?

I'll burn off some cell minutes with you guys week. Not sure if I can be much help at this point but.......

If you need money for parts or machine work, you could always sell my old wheels back to me

But seriously....keep smiling guys, your Fiero can still outrun mine. Lemme know if I can help out in any way.

Jon

quote Originally posted by Key Of David: Either that or less boost? What is better than ARP?

boost doesn't kill rod bolts... RPM does.
Really sounds like it was either flawed or over-torqued. You did use proper assembly lube, did you not?

------------------
Turn the key and feel the engine shake the whole car with its lope; Plant the gas pedal and feel in your chest neither a shriek nor a wail but a bellowing roar; Lift and be pushed into the harness by compression braking that only comes from the biggest cylinders while listening to music of pops and gurgles. Know that you are driving an American V8. There are finer engines made, but none of them are this cool.

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

Yes, I used the assembly lube. There are also two holes on the sides of the block at cyl. 3! I will post some pictures later. I am really confused as to what happened, and I can't wait to get the engine apart next weekend. Any ideas on what may have happened? Cyl 1 and 4 are at TDC at the same time that 2 and 3 are at BDC.
--Bryson

What happened? Looks like a bolt broke...

Anyway, get yourself a Twin Cam short block and bore it out to 92mm... use your current pistons and get creative with rods... OR punch the bore out to 93 and use overbored pistons and custom length rods.

With the TC stroke and Q4 92mm bore, you'll have 2.5 litres. With the 93 bore, you'll have 2.6 litres.

------------------
Turn the key and feel the engine shake the whole car with its lope; Plant the gas pedal and feel in your chest neither a shriek nor a wail but a bellowing roar; Lift and be pushed into the harness by compression braking that only comes from the biggest cylinders while listening to music of pops and gurgles. Know that you are driving an American V8. There are finer engines made, but none of them are this cool.

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

I would like to do that, but I don't like the balance shafts or the oiling system on the TC. My pistons are already .040 oversize, so I am actually a true 2.3L now. I got a few pictures of the block. The first is a picture of the block on the exhaust side of cyl 3.

Here's the exhaust side of cyl 1:

Here is my attempt at showing the underside of the engine. The entire corner of the engine is gone. The two holes in the side of the block are connected by a lack of oil pan. The gold thing is my windage tray.

--Bryson

that has to have been a part failure... i doubt that it was caused by you unless you were boosting while it was cold or you had just finished playing the your haridryer.... i hope that you get that beast running again!

[This message has been edited by TaurusThug (edited 11-03-2004).]

ouch!

------------------

1988 Quad 4 Coupe 5 speed click for more pics
1986 GT 5 speed
AOL: LastMinuteBastrd AIM: SavedbyJebus

Try and get some bolts that are the same diameter the whole lenth, and make sure that the surface where the nut is clamping
is flat also the rod surface there the bolt head clamps. Get a stretch gauge and find out the need stretch of the bolt for proper clamping.
Your connecting rod bolt and nut may have been stretch much or not enough.

quote Originally posted by bryson: I would like to do that, but I don't like the balance shafts or the oiling system on the TC. My pistons are already .040 oversize, so I am actually a true 2.3L now.

I haven't studied them intimately, but I'd heard that from the deck surface down, the TC was better than the Q4 in almost every way... I think the fact that they can be overbored 3mm and still be useable is impressive. Balance shaft removal is a known quantity also...

What do you not like about the TC oil system? How is the Q4 better?

------------------
Turn the key and feel the engine shake the whole car with its lope; Plant the gas pedal and feel in your chest neither a shriek nor a wail but a bellowing roar; Lift and be pushed into the harness by compression braking that only comes from the biggest cylinders while listening to music of pops and gurgles. Know that you are driving an American V8. There are finer engines made, but none of them are this cool.

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

Okay -- I did some reading and found out that I was wrong when thinking about the oiling system. I thought that the 2.3L had a better oiling system, but evidently many people like the 2.4L. Does anyone know why this is? I'm going to do a little more research and also look at hte blocks when I get home. You think I could use my existing pistons with that block? Also, do you think I would have to have anything machined to make the oil pump work correctly? I will definitley do some more research in this, and I'd also like to look at the piston speeds at my max RPM with a longer stroke. It shouldn't be bad, but I'll edit this post once I do the math. Thanks for your input/suggestions! I hope to make this engine stronger and more durable than the last.
--Bryson

[This message has been edited by bryson (edited 11-03-2004).]

The smaller the bore/stroke ratio is, the lower pistion speed will be. Or " over-square" as its called. large bore, stort stroke.

The other factor is the rod lenth to stroke is or R/S. This factor will decide the maximum piston intertial loading also the
optimum crankshaft angle after top dead center. The more the R/S is, the less the max.intertial pistion load is.
opp. is about 2.9.

The bore has nothing to do with piston speed. The rod length affects side loading, but not piston speed or acceleration. I am kind of stuck with the rod lengths, considering I don't want to buy custom rods, so the only choice I have with that is if I use the 2.3L crank and rods or the 2.4L crank and rods. Thanks!
--Bryson

Then use the long rods and get some custom pistions. Ever here of using 350 long rods in a chev. 400 with custom pistions.

I've got custom pistons, and as it is now I only have to buy 1 to replace the one that got destroyed...I hope I don't need to replace the one in cylinder 3 also. I won't know until I get everything apart this weekend. Thanks for your help!
--Bryson

Those big gaping holes look so painful. I almost want to donate my Ecotec to you, but then again, your thing is configured for a Quad 4, so that wouldn't work to well. :P

Good luck Bry!

Brutal and sad..........

AFAIK the TC has 94mm stroke, the Q4 has 84mm, so you're almost right about an 10mm stroke increase.

Here's a thread I started on exactly this topic: http://quad4forums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1807

Has a lot, but not totally complete, info on TC's, Q4's, and hybrids. You may have to register to view it.

Replacing rods vs pistons is all a question of how much money you want to spend.
I'f you've got the money, get 93 mm bore pistons with the pin as high as the manufacturer can put it and custom rods.
If you don't have that much money, I pose some questions about mixing and matching rods in the thread. The Q4 rods are I believe longer than the TC rods, so custom pistons with pins a couple mm higher than TC pins would still be necessary.

LMK what you think.

Edited because the stroke is 94, not 95

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-04-2004).]

Don't know if these parts will help but I received this on one of the lists I am on ...

quote ----- Original Message ----- From: "macman327" <macman327@yahoo.com> To: <Locost_North_America@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 11:09 AM Subject: [Locost_North_America] some part for locost My work friend has some quad 4 parts for short money if anyone is interested. Also my locost Quad 4 is done and It's not an easy engine to use. Like I said, the engine block, crank, rods, and pistons you can all have for free. I paid $80 for the oil pan, I'll let it go for $50. It was machine cleaned and looks brand new. I have a timing chain housing, that you can also have for $50. I think I have the gears also, but they are used. I recommend buying new ones. I have a used radiator, polished intake manifold, tubular (header style) exhaust manifold with a two tube down pipe, and several various other components. I have a buddy that works in the factory at Crane Cams that can get me returned items (new or very near new) and some new stuff discounted as well.

Respond to the sender, not to me since I don't have any connection, info, etc.

Paul

Thanks for that thread! It's really helpful. I have noticed a pretty big difference in the specifications online. I think the service manual puts the Quad at a 2.243 or something, so it's technically a 2.3L but it was advertised as being 2.26 so that it could be called a 2.3. Thanks for the offer, but I think I've got all the parts I need. If I need more, I'll let him know. If you can use the 2.4L crank and rods in the 2.4L block, with the 2.3L pistons (overbore the block), I would like to do that, especially if I can keep the engine reliable at 8000rpm. I know there would have to be valvetrain upgrades, but if I can continue to make power up high with these cams, I would consider trying to change the lifters (maybe overbore the lifter bores to fit the N* lifters -- unless the Quad's are larger diameter. I am going to buy aftermarket rods for whichever crank I use, but I would like the engine to handle as much power as i decide to make, even if I upgrade to a larger turbocharger. Raising the displacement would decrease the lag of a larger turbo, and raising the redline would give me a larger range of RPM for usable power. The car won't be raced every weekend or anything, but I do want it to hold together when I do race and I want this to last awhile. So far -- the most feasable setup looks like a 2.4L block, crank, and rods, with the 2.3L pistons and an overbore on the 2.4L block. Will there be any problems with the pistons coming out of the block with this setup? If they come out of the block 1mm, would anyone trust a "block saver" to hold 600+hp at the flywheel? Also, would there be any machine work required to put my head studs in the 2.4L block? I assume they would be the same diameter, but what about the depth? I am really intrigued about this, because a 2.5 or 2.6L engine would probably help a lot with lag, as well as what RPM the turbo builds full boost by. To remove the balance shafts, I would have to do something about the oil pump. Does anyone have any information on making this work? Thanks,
--Bryson

My opinion on this, and the way I will be going when I build my all motor Q4/TC hybrid, is to use the TC block and overbore. The TC block has improved lubrication and improved head gasket seal over the Q4 block, and the fact that it can take a 0.120 overbore and still be viable for hihg performance use speaks to its robustness. I haven't read everything out there on putting a 2.3 head on a 2.4 block, so I'm not sure about the coolant passage aspect, but I'll look into that.

For the rotating assembly, You can use a 2.4 crank with 2.3 rods if you have a machine shop narrow the big end of the rod to fit the 2.4 rod journals. That will give you a slightly better rod/stroke ratio than using 2.4 rods. Then the only custom pieces you'll need are the pistons. Be careful calculating the compression height or pin raise that you'll need. I wish I could find a reliable deck height spec for the 2.3 and 2.4 blocks.

The Q4's have 35mm diameter lifter bores. The TC goes to 33mm diameter lifters, which are the same size as Northstar lifters, which are hydraulic and CAN take very high RPM. I don't know if they are compatible in terms of overall stack height and oil groove location with the TC cam towers, however. I also don't know what the seat and open loads of common performance valve springs are...

------------------
Turn the key and feel the engine shake the whole car with its lope; Plant the gas pedal and feel in your chest neither a shriek nor a wail but a bellowing roar; Lift and be pushed into the harness by compression braking that only comes from the biggest cylinders while listening to music of pops and gurgles. Know that you are driving an American V8. There are finer engines made, but none of them are this cool.

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

I wouldn't mind using the 2.4 block -- can it be bored out safely to the 2.3L bore + .040"? I would like to try to use whatever pistons I still have. I really want a longer rod, but I don't know if it will be possible. As far as the rods go, I don't know if I want to buy aftermarket rods and turn them down to fit the 2.4 crank journals, then pay the extra money if I need custom pistons. I wonder where I can find lifters to work in the 086 head that are good for a little more RPM. I would be happy running the motor at 7400, which I think the stock lifters can handle, but I would like to be able to run up to about 8k to make a larger turbo happier. I remember something being asked about using the bottom half of the cam towers from a TC...does anyone know if that would work? Then I could put the 33mm lifters from a N* in it if they are the same height. I don't want to have to change anything as far as the valve height and stuff. I also think my cams have a lot more up top than the dyno graphs show, and I can take advantage of it once I get it tuned up.
Also, if I changed the oil pump drive on the 2.4 crank and got rid of the balance shafts, do you think I could make the 2.3 oil pump work with minimal modifications? I would also use the 2.3 windage tray. Thanks!
--Bryson

You might check out 3.4 TDC followers and see what they're good to. Check out www.60degreev6.com There was an article there comparing the two.

------------------
Alan Frazier
'88 coupe auto 74k miles for sale
'86 GT-'92 3.4 TDC 5 speed(sold)
'84 2m4 daily driver

quote Originally posted by bryson: I wouldn't mind using the 2.4 block -- can it be bored out safely to the 2.3L bore + .040"?

That's what I've been led to understand. I haven't got my hands on one to sonic test, though.

quote I would like to try to use whatever pistons I still have. I really want a longer rod, but I don't know if it will be possible. As far as the rods go, I don't know if I want to buy aftermarket rods and turn them down to fit the 2.4 crank journals, then pay the extra money if I need custom pistons.

You're down two pistons and two rods, right? If you use your remaining pistons, you'll have to buy special rods. If you keep your current rods and have those machined, you'll have to buy special pistons. As far as cost goes, at $330ish for Eagle rods and $425ish for Ross pistons, it's more expensive to get new pistons, BUT I like the longer rods better. When I get mine built, I'll see if the pins can be pushed high enough in the pistons to use 6" rods. That'll give a 1.62 rod ratio, which is approximately what a 400 Chevy with 6" rods has. But that's all talk until I actually get it done.

quote I wonder where I can find lifters to work in the 086 head that are good for a little more RPM. I would be happy running the motor at 7400, which I think the stock lifters can handle, but I would like to be able to run up to about 8k to make a larger turbo happier. I remember something being asked about using the bottom half of the cam towers from a TC...does anyone know if that would work? Then I could put the 33mm lifters from a N* in it if they are the same height. I don't want to have to change anything as far as the valve height and stuff. I also think my cams have a lot more up top than the dyno graphs show, and I can take advantage of it once I get it tuned up.

I was postulating exactly this... 086 head with TC cam towers and Northstar lifters... We just don't know enough yet to say if it would work or not. A thought occurred to me, though. Current GM practice is to use the same valvetrain components in all their overhead cam engines. The Northstar, high feature V6, Ecotec, Vortec 4200 and variants all use the same hydraulic lash adjuster/roller rocker arrangement. What if GM was doing this in the early '90's as well? What if the 3.4 TDC, TC and Northstar all share a common "form factor" for their valve lifters... That would be nice, wouldn't it?

quote Also, if I changed the oil pump drive on the 2.4 crank and got rid of the balance shafts, do you think I could make the 2.3 oil pump work with minimal modifications? I would also use the 2.3 windage tray.

The 2.3 oil pump on the 2.4, to my understanding, has been done and isn't that hard. If you're putting a 2.4 crank in a 2.3 block, getting the 2.3 oil pump to work is obviously trivial.

------------------
Turn the key and feel the engine shake the whole car with its lope; Plant the gas pedal and feel in your chest neither a shriek nor a wail but a bellowing roar; Lift and be pushed into the harness by compression braking that only comes from the biggest cylinders while listening to music of pops and gurgles. Know that you are driving an American V8. There are finer engines made, but none of them are this cool.

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

TC lifters are an exact match for the quad 4, with different part numbers. Let me know if you want one or two for testing with, TC ones that is. iirc the tc ones come cheaper than the quad 4 ones. go figure.

I would like to know which information is correct -- do the TC and Q4 use the same lifters, or are the bores different by 2mm? Also, what makes the hydraulic Q4 lifters less able to rev than the N* lifters? Thanks,
--Bryson

IIRC they are the same, the quad4forums.com guys can give you the specs. and prove either way.

Everything I've read says 35mm for the Q4 and 33mm for TC.

Hello guys,

First post and this has been a thread of intrest that I have been very quiet about. This is TheWhiteKnight one of the three head admins over on Quad4Forums.com and owner of TRS. I have to say that you all have done some impressive work. While I cannot take credit for making the stroker (since Dick Reed did that YEARS ago) I CAN take credit in "perfecting" it and putting all of the myths of it aside.

Quad 4 lifters are differnt than the Twin Cam lifters though Quad 4 lifters CAN be used in the Twin Cam, but the cam carriers have to be bored out and honed to fit them.

As far as the lifters that resist the high speed pump up? They are different lifters all together out of a different engine.

I have 2 versions of the 2.5 / 2.6L stroker kit made. The first one would never even have survived the stress that you have put your Quad 4 through.

The first type is turning the mains on the crankshaft down (which for any application over 270HP is a no-no because of the 2" main size)

The SECOND type is align boring the block.

You'll need a total custom piston package. Also you'll need to do a few other internal things to the block.

I RARELY advertise another forum on a forum, but in this case, I tihnk that it is nessecary to prevent me from repeating myself since there is a LOT of info.

Go to http://www.quad4forums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2036 That is the info on the stroker motor.

If you are interested in building one or purchasing one email me at JoshGooding@The-Race-Shop.com OR PM me over there. As said before my UID is TheWhiteKnight. I'll answer all of your questions about it that I can.

Thanks. Sorry to hear about your misfortune onyour Quad 4 project, it broke my heart when I read the posts over here. Let me know if I can be of assistance to you.

- Josh

Sorry I misunderstood, I thought you meant the 3.4 tdc lifters, those are the same, not the 2.4 tc. I dont kow why im such an idiot. Sorry for the confusion.

quote Originally posted by The-Race-Shop.com: Quad 4 lifters are differnt than the Twin Cam lifters though Quad 4 lifters CAN be used in the Twin Cam, but the cam carriers have to be bored out and honed to fit them. As far as the lifters that resist the high speed pump up? They are different lifters all together out of a different engine.

Doesn't necessarily mean they won't work. There are two considerations that ought to be looked at. The distance from the tip of the valve stem to the base circle of the cam and the location of the oil groove. Once I get my hands on some TC lifters, I'll investigate.

------------------
Turn the key and feel the engine shake the whole car with its lope; Plant the gas pedal and feel in your chest neither a shriek nor a wail but a bellowing roar; Lift and be pushed into the harness by compression braking that only comes from the biggest cylinders while listening to music of pops and gurgles. Know that you are driving an American V8. There are finer engines made, but none of them are this cool.

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

Good call, Will! There certainly is more to be investigated other than the diameter of the lifter. As far as there being an "anti-pump up" lifter for the Quad4, if there are any available, who has them?

quote Originally posted by bryson: I'll probably start a new thread, but this time with more pictures detailing almost every little step I take, even thing as simple as new brackets. Hopefully ARP can tell me a little more about what happened. By the way -- Max boost was set at 21psi, but I don't think that it hit that from what my dad told me. --Bryson

If I were to guess what went wrong I would have to blame it on tuneing. I don't remember reading in this thread if you ever got the tuneing sorted. I saw the vid of the car on the dyno and w/tuing off as much as it was then I was suprised the car made it through the pull. You are using a tec-3 right?