By the way, Scott, yours is looking great! How's it coming along? I have class at 3:00, but reading this and seeing everyone else's responses gets me all hyped up to go work on the car! Ahhhh the torture of anticipation will be until 4:20.......
--Also, I made a bet with my boss that my car will be finished by prom, but I think I'll win taht one. I made a bet with my friend for Christmas, so I REALLY need to get a move on!! Thanks for your replies and stuff, it gets me motivated to get off my lazy behind and go out to North Charleston!

*edit* WOOHOO page 3!

[This message has been edited by bryson (edited 10-22-2003).]

quote Originally posted by RotrexFiero: What happened to the dual intercoolers?

Rotrex,

Sorry about the confusion but I hijacked Bryson's thread to post some pictures of my N/A quad 4.

Bryson,

I should get the rest of the body panels back from the painter tomorrow. I'm in the process of doing urban remenwal on the front suspension. Hopefully have that done by the weekend and can then put the body back together and see if this sucker will run.

Awesome! I can't wait to see pictures when it's all done! I got the fuel tank *almost* out today. Haha I got spoiled from having those lift for the engine in/engine out deal! We had the back of the car up on ramps and I was getting smushed the whole time. Tomorrow I'm going to see about fuel lines and A/C lines, and hopefully a fuel pump. I need this thing DONE! Now that my friend got his 93 RX7 I am dying to have a car that people look at. Oh well, more tomorrow!
--Bryson

------------------
88 Fiero GT Quad4 Turbo...It has begun
88 VW GTI 16v ($300 driver/autox MACHINE!)
90 Olds Calais International H.O. (donor car)
88 Fiero Formula (parts car)

Sorry I haven't written in so long, but things have been somewhat slow. I got the fuel tank out, painted with POR-15, and the fuel pump has been ordered but id not in yet. I got the fuel lines cut and fittings put on the end for the steel braided hose. I should knock out the coolant lines soon, and hopefully get some pictures for everyone of the fuel system. I'm going up to the shop tomorrow hopefully so we will see what goes on.
--Bryson

any progress on this?

marcus

Bryson,

What a great swap!! Very cool. I can't wait to see more. I was just wondering, how are you routing the the lines from the turbo to the intercoolers to the engine? Are you going in series or are you splitting the the flow? The reason I ask is because when there is too much intake volume on a turbo motor it takes longer for the boost to build causing some serious turbo lag. Maybe this is not a concern if you're looking for all-out power. There's just so many different ways to go when building a turbo motor (early boost, around town drivability, high output, etc). I guess I'm just curious as to what yuor school of thought is on your build (purpose of car, boost levels, and so on).

Thanks and Good luck
Troy

Hey! I got the fuel tank and pump in and I got some parts of the fuel lines made. The fuel filter is ordered (HPG1 from Fram) and I have started on the headers. I'm going to run the intercoolers in sequence. The boost tubes won't be too terribly long and since the intercoolers are small I don't expect much pressure drop or lag, but this whole thing is an experiment. I don't know how anything will react. The car IS a daily driver, but I'm not planning on starting to build boost until about 3000rpm. This doesn't bother me because I like to be able to drive around town without getting into boost. I'm planning on running about 15psi on the street and 22 at the track, and also being able to run as much as 25psi for "special occasions" The car will be autocrossed maybe every other month, but will probably never see a set of drag tires. Any drag runs I make will probably be on street tires, and the car is by no means a drag car. I still need to make the steel braided fuel lines (and coolant and oil for the turbo), I need to finish the wiring -- I got many connectors on the harness -- and finish the headers, and I have one more coolant hose (a heater hose), and that's about all I can think of until I get this thing finished!!
--Bryson

------------------
88 Fiero GT Quad4 Turbo...It has begun
88 VW GTI 16v ($300 driver/autox MACHINE!)
90 Olds Calais International H.O. (donor car)
88 Fiero Formula (parts car)

Wow, sounds great. Turbos can be a great set-up if done right and it sounds like you're doing exactly that. And 25psi to boot!! I'm assuming that that those "special occasions" will include a tank of 100+ octane fuel to match? In any case with what you have left, it sounds like its about ready run. All I can say is MORE PICTURES!! WE want more pictures.

quote Originally posted by bryson: I'm going to run the intercoolers in sequence. The boost tubes won't be too terribly long and since the intercoolers are small I don't expect much pressure drop or lag, but this whole thing is an experiment.

Personally, I'd go to the trouble of plumbing the intercoolers in parallel rather than series. It will require more plumbing but will drop less boost,and give you better response because the path length will be shorter.

------------------
'87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc.
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow

Hooking them up in parallel would probably pretty good, especially if I could custom-make endtanks. The way the endtanks are and the positioning of the throttle body makes it more practical to run them in series, but once I get some nicer intercoolers and am forced to make my own endtanks (darn) and if I can figure out an intake manifold with the throttle body in the middle, I will probably split the boost tubes to run the intercoolers in parallel. I hadn't even thought of that before...man you guys are making my head spin!

ive kept my mouth shut till now, but i gotta speak up.

Ive been following this thread since the begenning and i must say everything looks GREAT, except for one thing.

The issue is your intercoolers, i personally dont think they will work worth a damn. Reason is that A) you will need way to much piping to run them (series or parrallel) so boost drop adn youll run the turbo harder and hotter to get the desired boost, heatsoaking the IC's
B) they are small units and your talking lots of boost. Heatsoak will be a real issue
C) I absolutly think its a terrible location to mount them, even with the ducting your going to do the intercoolers still sit in a high heat area and are going to be very likely to heat soak very fast without boost to help them along. boost and engine heat doing double duty to heatsoak the things
D) I dont know how efficiently those things flow, but i cant imagine its terribly well, ford was turbo chargine the 2.3L without an intercooler very sucessfully at 15psi for years before they added the intercooler on the thunderbirds and the boost stayed at 15psi, and the HP differences were marginal(they are t'bird units right? Im to lazy to go find that in the thread) And while i do know a couple merkur guys that have added a t'bird IC to their setup it has never been the ones that go for high boost and power. Yea this point is pure conjecture, but i used to be a merkur guy so my head isnt totally in my ass.
E) How is the endtank design, and what is the size of the inlet/outlet? If you can mod them to 2.5" the IC cores will probably perform better. but i still think the cores are too small and mounted in a poor spot...

First thing id look at in a fiero is an air/water core, water will absorb 4x the heat that air will, thus equal sized IC cores will be 4X more effective if you can efficiently cool the water, which is the easy part if you dont mind pluming in an extra rad. The big bonus is you can have a reasonably sized IC mounted nearly anywhere, redcing the piping by alot, thus less boost drop, less lag, and less actual work the IC needs to do. and for runs at the track dry ice drops in the reservoire real easy. (no personal experiance but i was chattign to a guy and he said that regular ice is gone after a single pass, DSM guy) One thing ive thought about doign myself is getting a spare IC core and welding up a waterjacket and new endtanks then the rest of the air water system can be picked from a junkyard for pennies. except for the water pump, but an RV unit should do the trick well and be pretty reasonable priced.

If thats not an option id do everything i could to get them out of the engine bay, or at the very least insulate them from the engine bay as best as possible.

Just remember that 15psi and 25psi are two totally different worlds, i have no question that youll be able to boost 15, daily on pump gas. but 25 even on race ras needs lots to run well.

This is for all you people that don't know,....the Quad4 exhaust is on the trunk side only, so there is minimal heat by the firewall/intake. So the heat soaking of the ICs by the engine will be minimal, at least by the exhaust or any other engine comparison.

------------------
'84 Fiero Sport Quad 4 coming soon
http://www.lasvegasfieroclub.com/

I remember reading somewhere that water to air intercoolers aren't as efficient as air to air intercoolers, and it was from a company that maufactured both. The same principle can be found in the cooling methods of the engine itself. I remember my auto technology teacher telling the class about combine harvesters that had air cooled diesel engines, and that these engines were designed to be run in the highest heat areas. He told us that air cooling is more efficient because its using the outside air to cool the engine itself, not using the outside air to cool coolant that cools the engine. However, I can see how putting ice in the tanks could possibly make this setup get cooler air intake temperatures, but that's only good for track use, and its even limited to drag racing, not autocross or any events of that sort.

quote Originally posted by jim123185: I remember reading somewhere that water to air intercoolers aren't as efficient as air to air intercoolers, and it was from a company that maufactured both. The same principle can be found in the cooling methods of the engine itself. I remember my auto technology teacher telling the class about combine harvesters that had air cooled diesel engines, and that these engines were designed to be run in the highest heat areas. He told us that air cooling is more efficient because its using the outside air to cool the engine itself, not using the outside air to cool coolant that cools the engine. However, I can see how putting ice in the tanks could possibly make this setup get cooler air intake temperatures, but that's only good for track use, and its even limited to drag racing, not autocross or any events of that sort.

WOW, water is 4X more effective at absorbing heat as air. So how an air/water IC could be less efficient is beyond me. FACT a air/water IC id 4X more efficient than a similar sized air/air...

Look back in time and virtually all motors were air cooled, now virtually all are watercooled. why would 99.99% of the automotive industry waste billions of dollars developing and producing watercooled engines if they werent better. By better i mean more efficient at cooling.
The last hold out i can think of was the porsche flat 6, but even they started to watercool in the last 10 or 15 years and as a result they can pretty much tripple the power output.

As for the ice i was told, by a guy with personal experiance that it doesnt work well (didnt even last through the staging lanes) but dry ice will last quite some time, making it very effective for autoX's

quote Originally posted by sardonyx247: This is for all you people that don't know,....the Quad4 exhaust is on the trunk side only, so there is minimal heat by the firewall/intake. So the heat soaking of the ICs by the engine will be minimal, at least by the exhaust or any other engine comparison.

True, but the IC will still heat soak due to the hot compressed air generated by the turbo. I agree that the IC should be kept away from the engine bay. The engine bay will reach high temps (I thought some one quoted near 200*F) making the point of having an IC moot. This is what I did:
http://home.comcast.net/~jszczech1/Project_Chill.doc

Another alternative is to go with a water injection system like Autotune sells.

[This message has been edited by Leadfoot (edited 11-13-2003).]

quote Originally posted by Neal: WOW, water is 4X more effective at absorbing heat as air. So how an air/water IC could be less efficient is beyond me. FACT a air/water IC id 4X more efficient than a similar sized air/air... Look back in time and virtually all motors were air cooled, now virtually all are watercooled. why would 99.99% of the automotive industry waste billions of dollars developing and producing watercooled engines if they werent better. By better i mean more efficient at cooling. The last hold out i can think of was the porsche flat 6, but even they started to watercool in the last 10 or 15 years and as a result they can pretty much tripple the power output. As for the ice i was told, by a guy with personal experiance that it doesnt work well (didnt even last through the staging lanes) but dry ice will last quite some time, making it very effective for autoX's

Neal,

You're right air to water is more efficient, but you are forgetting the most important factor in heat transfer: Delta T (the temp diff. between the two objects exchanging heat). With air to air you're cooling air is always going to be at ambient temps (if IC location and flow to it are designed correctly). However, with water to air it starts out that way, but over time the radiator that cools the water, unless it is sized on a scale that will not fit into a fiero, will not be able to keep up with the heat load and the water temperature will rise reducing the effectiveness (not efficiency) of the IC. Since you can add dry ice for specific aplications the real question is then, "how important is this cooling for every day driving with lower boost levels?" Of course some of the other points you made earlier concerning packaging it into the car and keeping intake volume to a minimum are a very big plus.

Now as for why most modern engines are water-cooled that has to do more with the fact that 99% of them get driven in stop-and-go traffic. If every car was driven non-stop 40mph from its starting point to its destination, we would likely see more air cooled engines. Now in regards to the porsche flat 6, you're just wrong. The water cooled N/A motor is making nearly the same power as a similar displacement air cooled motor. And either one can be bumped up to ridiculous levels of power with turbo setups (I think I've seen in upwards of 600 bhp out of the 3.2 air cooled).

Regards,
Troy

Bryson
I just wanted to tell you, that you are doing a great job, you are putting your $ where your mouth is, a lot of us dream about doing this and that but your are doing it.

As far as the intercooler location I am no expert when it comes to turbos but I have done a lot of research on them and now my daily driver is "force fed".
As for the intercooler location I think if you have scoop directing air to them and somehow shield them from the engine it should be ok, might not be the best set up but you can make it work.
Suggestion you cold have jets that spray n2o on them, also you could get a eng vent on the back of the engine lid (like Skiitime ) to help get rid of some of the heat.

I also wanted to say the discusion on the placement for the intercoolers made me think about one of my favorite car
FERRARI F40

[This message has been edited by 85LAMB (edited 11-14-2003).]

I would suggest a pair of small radiator fans below the intercoolers with the air going out the top. As for the water vs. air, well they both have there advantages and disadvantages, but I think in a Fiero, air to liquid makes more sence since you can put another radiator up front away from the heat. Like stated before, would be to put a resevoir in the loop on the liquid and fill it with ice when you need it.

You could also place the intercooler LOW in the engine bay, like say about where the cat used to be, and again put a fan in with it to force the air through. I think the upward air in that location is pretty strong and cold. But of course you do put the intercoolers at risk of FOD. Hopefully I'll have pics of my Quad4 tonight. Its looking really good. Im tempted to supercharge the thing now, got the M90 sitting in the basement.

------------------
84 Indy fiero Quad 4 HO (almost done!!)
Silver 88 GT, Newest addiction.

quote Originally posted by Mighty Mouse: Neal, You're right air to water is more efficient, but you are forgetting the most important factor in heat transfer: Delta T (the temp diff. between the two objects exchanging heat). With air to air you're cooling air is always going to be at ambient temps (if IC location and flow to it are designed correctly). However, with water to air it starts out that way, but over time the radiator that cools the water, unless it is sized on a scale that will not fit into a fiero, will not be able to keep up with the heat load and the water temperature will rise reducing the effectiveness (not efficiency) of the IC. Since you can add dry ice for specific aplications the real question is then, "how important is this cooling for every day driving with lower boost levels?" Of course some of the other points you made earlier concerning packaging it into the car and keeping intake volume to a minimum are a very big plus. Now as for why most modern engines are water-cooled that has to do more with the fact that 99% of them get driven in stop-and-go traffic. If every car was driven non-stop 40mph from its starting point to its destination, we would likely see more air cooled engines. Now in regards to the porsche flat 6, you're just wrong. The water cooled N/A motor is making nearly the same power as a similar displacement air cooled motor. And either one can be bumped up to ridiculous levels of power with turbo setups (I think I've seen in upwards of 600 bhp out of the 3.2 air cooled). Regards, Troy

Thanks for the porsche info, im certianly not a big fan and not up to date on what people have done with their air cooled engines.

Well im really going to have to disagree with you on the the sizing of a rad for a liquid/air IC system. If the motor was under constant boost (only situation i can think of is road racing) i may agree (havent worked out the math yet) but most drivers in day to day circumstances spend only a small fraction of time on boost. (I drive a turbo car everyday id guess that less than 1/10th of the time is boosted, basically merge lanes or when im having fun). I think the longest time under boost would be in autoX and a typical solo2 run lasts for 60seconds and a typical drag race lasts 15seconds. (and if bryson does reach his goal, hope he does, it will only last 12seconds) Making the amount of heat that needs to be absorbed and dissipated in the IC system much less than if under constant boost. In other words I would assume that the system only needs to be relatively efficient for 60 seconds, so a small increase in the water temps over this time would be acceptable.
Thus makign a system that can sustain reasonably short periods of boost should be very easy compared to constant boost.

What i will do if i dont get busy today is do the math and get a good guestimate on both necessary rad size and system volume to keep the water near ambient temps with sustained boost. I do want to see how practical this really is.
And for the record it is my hope to build an liquid/air system for my DSM, i think i can do it for about a 1/4 of the cost of an off the shelf front mount IC unit and get more performance out of it.

[This message has been edited by Neal (edited 11-14-2003).]

I have been reasearching this project for a long time and here is my take on the intercoolers. A water to air intercooler has the POTENTIAL to cool 4x better because of water's ability to adsorb heat better. The disadvantage of a water to air intercooler is the complexity. Neal is completely right to assume I am not going to be in constant boost. The beauty of an air to water intercooler is that it does the work when you rent under boost. The only problem is, to have an effecient intercooler you need not only the pump and lines, but a large enough resevoir so that the same water never circulates through the core twice. Since a water to air intercooler cools the water in the entire system when the car is not under boost, and when it is under boost the first drop of water that absorbs heat from the intercooler core should never make it BACK to the core because it will not be as cool as the rest of the intercooler. As much as I would like one, I can not afford a water to air intercooler at this point. Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with the intercooler placement. They are not only as far away from the engine as possible, but there will be a sheet of metal (probably aluminum) in between the intercooler and engine bay for performance and aesthetic reasons. The inlet to the first intercooler is slightly larger than the compressor outlet of my turbo, and exactly the same size as the pipe my BOV is mounted on. The outlet of that intercooler is larger, and since I'm sending the air straight into the opposite side of the same type of intercooler, it's inlet is the same. A 64mm ID aluminum pipe was welded onto the endtank where the inlet was before. I am going to run an alcohol injection system (I may make it a two-stage system) to cut on at around 15psi. When I first tune the car, I will datalog and go back and look at my intake air temperatures. I may program one jet to spray at 13psi and another at 18 (just guesses, but you get the idea). I will probably also have a C02 spray that is activated by a solenoid at around 15psi. The intercooler piping is not terribly long. Think of any typical front mounted air to air intercooler (Neal, think about a DSM -- I have been researching them a lot because two of my friends drive GSX's and one drives a TSi). The piping has to go from the turbo in the middle of the engine to one side of the intercooler, all the way across the front of the car in an intercooler (read: more pressure drop than a pipe), then back up and to the firewall to make it to the throttle body. Mine is no different. It will go from the turbo at the back of the engine across to the front of the engine to the intercoolers, across the middle of the car, and to the throttle body almost right after the second intercooler. As far as the fans go, I am trying to figure out if I should have fans that are under the intercooler and push up through it, or if I shoudl have them on top of the intercoolers pulling. I don't think there would be much room on top, so I may put fans underneath the intercoolers. Sorry it was so long, but I had alot to say. I can't wait until it's running and I can post data (air intake temps, boost levels, etc) to determine how changes in the setup affect the performance of the intercooler(s), but for now I'm really happy we can all have an intelligent conversation without arguing. Thanks everyone -- this is my first "big" thread and I'm glad it's going well (and hopefully helping people).
--Bryson

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88 Fiero GT Quad4 Turbo...It has begun
88 VW GTI 16v ($300 driver/autox MACHINE!)
90 Olds Calais International H.O. (donor car)
88 Fiero Formula (parts car)

[This message has been edited by bryson (edited 11-15-2003).]

[This message has been edited by bryson (edited 11-16-2003).]

quote Originally posted by bryson: 88 Fiero Formula (parts car)

Hey Bryson great project that I've been reading up on. Formula parts car? ANythign for sale on it? The only thing I notice is that Quad 4 is very very clean compared to what I bought from ya! Hehe
If you have any spare time I think my uncle could use some help on his two Fieros that he has. Needs to replace a water pump and put a rear swaybar on the 88 that I gave him back in March! Maybe make a couple of bucks too. I just thought I'd say hello and everything looks great!
Matt Jackson

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MRJ
MY 86GT For Sale
My Black 87GT For Sale

[This message has been edited by MRJ (edited 11-15-2003).]

Bryson, shoot me an email the next time you are going to be in the shop. I would love to take a close-up gander at the project. It looks awesome... Great Job

Since Pip is being good to me now, I might as well...
Oh LOOK at that intake!! GM did a good job on this piece.

I increased my throttle body size by making an adaptor plate to fit a 96' 3.4 DOHC throttle body on. I then punched out the hole in the intake on a milling machine.
The small one is a stock one.

Looks good ont the stand

Looks better in the car!

Its a good fit too!

Page 6?

Im considering putting an M90 on the Quad 4 before I put it in...

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84 Indy Quad 4
88 Silver GT 5 SP

Alright, keep up the good work. Mine's still taking a god aweful long time to finish (that's what happens when your in university and have a part time job).

I'd like to get a turbo on mine sometime in the distant future, but I'm trying not to delve too much into dreaming about future upgrades until the swap is actually finished.

Btw Neal, I was waiting for you to chime in about this one, lol. Good points though.

quote Originally posted by Posthumane: Mine's still taking a god aweful long time to finish.

I hear that. Me too

Anyone have some quad4 times in a fiero?

------------------
'84 Fiero Sport Quad 4 coming soon
http://www.lasvegasfieroclub.com/

I would like to chime in with my 2 cents about the water-to-air intercooler debate. I have a bunch of friends and people I know who have or had a GMC Syclone or Typhoon. As most of you know, these came with water-to-air intercooled turbo 4.3 V6 engines. Now one gentleman in particular was running 11s with his typhoon using the biggest aftermarket water-to-air components he could fit under the hood. I guess this is where the size issue comes in. He finally pulled all of that stuff off his engine and put on a front mount air-to-air which allowed him to get into the 10's.

I think one of the biggest problems with water-to-air IC setups are the charge air cooler units. Most I have seen are simply too small to be effective (in my opinion). Now say you took a stock GN intercooler and welded tanks on it and ran water thru it (where the ambient air used to go thru it to cool it), I am sure it would work very well provided you could keep the water cool. Problem is I could see where you would run out of space really fast, especially in a Fiero.

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power corrupts. absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Custom GM Chip Burning | Fiero Engine Conversions | Turbocharging | dtcc.cz28.com

bump...how ya doin

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FieroGt3 Website! Check it out.

BUMP BUMP BUMP

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'86 Fiero GT


www.KylesFiero.tk

Happy holidays! I've been working on fabricating my header and that's about it. I taking a little break from everything over Thanksgiving - going to a freind's, out in the country. Will update on my return. Thanks.
-bryson

Hey everyone! I'm waiting on some mandrel bends to come in but I've got 3 of the 4 primaries mocked up. Its quite different from what I planned, but I think it will work alright. I'll try to get some pictures as soon as possible!
--Bryson

Very impressive build up my friend!! There really isnt too much interest in Quads so I am very happy to read on your progress. My Fiero has had a Quad in it now for over 9 years now. I didnt have to do any fabricating my self because I got every thing from IRM, including the exhaust and wiring harness. You have given me some fresh ideas of doing my own Quad and adding some more ponies.

Are you going to stay with the stock rad or go aftermarket, and cant wait to see your exhaust....I went through a few set ups before I was happy with it.

Keep up the good work, and Seasons Greetings to all!!!!

Looks like I might have to build a "backup" motor, with one of my lower compression piston sets and a little (Ok, not so little) turbo. Couldn't find a good spot for a supercharger. Oh well. back to work

[This message has been edited by Fierobsessed (edited 12-23-2003).]

my 2 cents (no flames)
on the a/a intercooler thing....
make sure you do the math and size the cores and plumbing correctly
there is only one right size for the projected CFM you plan to move
through the system. A/A has to be out in the front of the vehicle period.
no amount of ducting or fans will do the job correctly

for example
you need about 2.5 in ducting for about 400 hp
every 90* bend loses about 3 to 5% of the potential max output.
You need about 12 sq. in. of core per 100 hp placed for max airflow
based on an average velocity of 60 mph. These figures are based on peak
hp and peak boost and you have to design for this because 1 boost spike
or heat spike and it's all over.

Stick your hand out the window at 60 mph and feel the pressure. This is what you will need across the whole surface area of the core(s)

on the a/w debate its 10 to 14 x

there are positives and negitives for both in a front engine car.
In a mid engine car the balence might change somewhat. Also a front engine
car tends to run cooler under the hood
A good good way to demonstrate the differences would be to stand outside
on a 70 deg day and you will be quite comfortable. Now consider sitting in a
swimming pool at the same water temp, talk about "shrinkage"

a shoe box size A/W Ic will support 600 hp easily
The waterpump and plumbing is no biggie compared to putting a Quad 4 in a fiero
Yes. F1 used A/A but they ran diff gas and had a wind tunnel to design the system
some of the fastest imports run A/W
Spearco based its opinion on front engine cars.. give them a call

the quickest syclone 10,26 in the 1/4
stock block, stock manifolds switched to A/A at when he started to break the
11.5 second range (with 4 wheel drive)oh ya by the way he's Canadian

what ever ya decide, remember it is a system...
knowing when your turbo is most eff. is just a start
for instance at low boost they could make more heat than at high boost depending
on the peak eff island
mess with TurboCalc and it will open your eyes

I can give you TurboCalc (I have permission)
email me at vortecfiero@rogers.com

l

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84 Fiero Turbo Vortec 4300 Phantom GT
L35 block, Syclone Intake and ECM Moates adapter
T04B 50lb injectors, 3 bar map sens, T04B H3 Turbo www.cardomain.com/id/vortecfiero
Murphy's Constant Matter will be damaged in direct proportion to its value
Murphy's Law of Thermodynamics Things get worse under pressure.
Arthur C. Clarke "Any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

We're all batting around theories and idea's, then you come along and throw in facts? What ever happend to trial and error?

One point you raised but didn't follow up on,

"the quickest syclone 10,26 in the 1/4
stock block, stock manifolds switched to A/A at when he started to break the
11.5 second range (with 4 wheel drive)oh ya by the way he's Canadian"

I'm more then suprised to hear that he had a A/W I/C. Most of the time its just more effective (both in price and practicality) to run a A/A, especially in an SUV where the front end is flat. But in the end why did he switch?

quote Originally posted by Fierobsessed: We're all batting around theories and idea's, then you come along and throw in facts? What ever happend to trial and error? One point you raised but didn't follow up on, "the quickest syclone 10,26 in the 1/4 stock block, stock manifolds switched to A/A at when he started to break the 11.5 second range (with 4 wheel drive)oh ya by the way he's Canadian" I'm more then suprised to hear that he had a A/W I/C. Most of the time its just more effective (both in price and practicality) to run a A/A, especially in an SUV where the front end is flat. But in the end why did he switch?

the syclone comes with a A/w system and by using data logging (Datamaster)it was
found that at that hp level (for anything at or under 11.5) the MAT temps were starting
to rise faster that the system could cope with.

his build is now a published/posted recipe for any serious low ETs
personaly my goal is a safe 400 hp so I going the A/W route with
stock parts

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84 Fiero Turbo Vortec 4300 Phantom GT
L35 block, Syclone Intake and ECM Moates adapter
T04B 50lb injectors, 3 bar map sens, T04B H3 Turbo www.cardomain.com/id/vortecfiero
Murphy's Constant Matter will be damaged in direct proportion to its value
Murphy's Law of Thermodynamics Things get worse under pressure.
Arthur C. Clarke "Any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

"A/A has to be out in the front of the vehicle period.
no amount of ducting or fans will do the job correctly"

I agree VortecFiero completely, I was going to run an A/A in the back of the Fiero first but after further research and way the Fiero was designed in the back, it will not be efficient having it in the back. I was even going to mount it in the trunk areas with a large scoop (the trunk will be removed anyway for the longitudinal setup). There wasn't enough airflow for the A/A IC to work efficiently. So what my conclusion is that I will be using two stock GN's A/A IC’s stacked on top of each other and welded together, then boxed completely so I can run water through it. The liquid setup will consist of two high volume pumps, two fuel cells which will be used for ice and water and a heat exchanger up front. This way the IC will be in front of the engine and right behind the firewall thus all I need is minimal plumbing from the turbo to the TB, which is important for IC's efficiency. There is no right or wrong way of doing things; I know some people will say how I am crazy for doing what I am doing. You are doing what you want to do, a custom job. We all have different way of doing things. No matter how you do it will be a one hell of a setup and you are moving forward.

Good luck

Prasad

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"Turbo Cars are like hot women. A little edgy, every guy wants one, some guys can't handle them, and if you throw a little alchohol in the mix they'll rock your world"
1986 GT (waiting for Buick GN setup trasplant)
1984SE 5 Speed W/SBC V8
1987 Buick GN(10.70@124MPH)
1987 Trans Am SBC 355cid Twin Turbo(no track times yet)
1992 GMC Typhoon(13.20@ 99mph)
Other cars; JaguarXJ6 & Mercedes AMG 500SEC

[This message has been edited by WikedV6 (edited 12-24-2003).]

The size of my pipes will average about 2.5" I am running 2" from the turbo to the first intercooler, 2.5" from the first to second intercooler, and 3" into my throttle body. I know that these intercoolers probably won't support the amount of power I would like to run. The cores (added together) create a total core volume of 22x6x3, if I am right about the thickness. Spearco (Turbonetics) makes a bar and plate intercooler core (like the TC intercoolers) with the dimensions 3"Dx7.125"Wx18.5"H, which has the same surface area as my intercoolers. I understand that the arrangements and number of fins and many other things affect intercooler performance, but this core can support 450hp, and 670cfm. I am going to upgrade the intercoolers later to a more efficient and probably thicker core and endtanks, or I may run a large intercooler on the bottom of the car between the engine and the firewall with a duct to the bottom and a vent and a sheet of metal that prevents any hot air from going under the car from behind the radiator. I just purchased an Archie 4-core radiator. I would rather run an A/W intercooler, but I want to get my car running, even if it is on low boost. The alcohol injection will help tremendously, as well as a CO2 spray. If anyone knows where I can pick up a good A/W intercooler, let me know, because it would make it much easier to run boost tubes and it would probably work better than my air to air setup. The TEC3 can datalog intake air temps, so I'll do a few dyno runs and post the results as soon as I get things finished up. This is an experiment, and although I would like to come straight out with 400hp, I don't mind doing a little trial and error to get there; that's half the fun in making your own system Thanks for everyone's help, and keep posting!!
--Bryson