Bryson,
1) awesome swap, looks great! hope to race u one day after my car is done.
2) can u get me in touch with your dsm friends? i race a eclipse.

Hey!! Thanks for the input -- I just finished my water/air intercooler and my alcohol injection, and I'm heading to the dyno in about 5 mintues. My friend with the RX7 put down 311 earlier running really rich and at 15psi. I'll get some pictures later; none of the new stuff looks nice yet because I haven't had time to go through and nit pick. Anyway, I'll keep everyone posted on how it goes!
--Bryson

Bump! (Of the best kind, for dyno numbers )

I was quite suprised when I put it on the dyno because I stayed up til 6:30 this morning working on my car through last night, so after waking up at 9 and finishing my car, I didn't get to test drive the car to the dyno. I hadn't felt it on the street, so I didn't know what to expect. I let off on the gas in my first run at 5800, but still pulled 383 whp and 356 torque! I'll try to use the scanner to get these graphs on the comp, but if not I will take ap icture of the paper. My A/F was a little lean until around 4800 rpm, then it became a little too rich. Around 5300 it started to lean out a little, and was right about 11.8 at 5800 rpm. I played with it some, and next run the car kept sputtering really badly. I changed a few more things and ran again. The car still sputtered, but I put down 392 hp and 385 tq. We decided it was probably spark blowout so I got a new set of plugs and gapped them to .025" It smoothed out a ton and I played with the fuel a little. If you watch the second and third dyno graphs, you see that the O2 reading gets rich right where the spark is missing, but right before it I was up in the 12:1 area. If we fix the spark problem, we were worried about the car leaning out, so we richened it up across the board, and ended up with pretty constant O2 readings, but a little leaner than I feel comfortable with. That run I wound up with 396 hp and 371 tq, but I had to get off the gas at 7036 because my crank trigger wheel was out of round, and it was cutting out the spark. The air/water intercooler is working well, and the water/alcohol is spraying, but I haven't gone back to my datalog again to see the intake temps. I'll post the graphs next, once I get them scanned in. I also have dyno vids, but not of the final run. If anyone can post vids PM or email me. Thanks!
--Bryson

quote Originally posted by bryson: I was quite suprised when I put it on the dyno because I stayed up til 6:30 this morning working on my car through last night, so after waking up at 9 and finishing my car, I didn't get to test drive the car to the dyno. I hadn't felt it on the street, so I didn't know what to expect. I let off on the gas in my first run at 5800, but still pulled 383 whp and 356 torque! I'll try to use the scanner to get these graphs on the comp, but if not I will take ap icture of the paper. My A/F was a little lean until around 4800 rpm, then it became a little too rich. Around 5300 it started to lean out a little, and was right about 11.8 at 5800 rpm. I played with it some, and next run the car kept sputtering really badly. I changed a few more things and ran again. The car still sputtered, but I put down 392 hp and 385 tq. We decided it was probably spark blowout so I got a new set of plugs and gapped them to .025" It smoothed out a ton and I played with the fuel a little. If you watch the second and third dyno graphs, you see that the O2 reading gets rich right where the spark is missing, but right before it I was up in the 12:1 area. If we fix the spark problem, we were worried about the car leaning out, so we richened it up across the board, and ended up with pretty constant O2 readings, but a little leaner than I feel comfortable with. That run I wound up with 396 hp and 371 tq, but I had to get off the gas at 7036 because my crank trigger wheel was out of round, and it was cutting out the spark. The air/water intercooler is working well, and the water/alcohol is spraying, but I haven't gone back to my datalog again to see the intake temps. I'll post the graphs next, once I get them scanned in. I also have dyno vids, but not of the final run. If anyone can post vids PM or email me. Thanks! --Bryson

Holy hell! That's a good run, methinks!

Now all I need to do is get done and give a little competition.

Nate

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My Web page

Awesome numbers! I've been following this thread from the beginning, I've gotta say I'm really impressed by the work you've done. Now if you could just edit thread topics to get rid of that question mark after 400hp

Brad

Big thanks to Darth Fiero for posting these for me!

I think there's more that I can do with just tuning. I need to play with the fuel a little more, and I still have the timing pretty conservative. I can't wait to mess with another head and make a new stainless header! I need to fix this crank trigger wheel, but I'm pretty eager to see what I can do.
--Bryson

[This message has been edited by bryson (edited 06-07-2004).]

WOW!

Let me know the next time you are in the garage... I need to see and hear the beast in person.

[This message has been edited by topcat (edited 06-06-2004).]

That is alot of power. Few quick questions
How fast is that beast going to go?
Easy 11's?
How does it do otherwise?
Streetable?
MPG?

pm sent

Hey! I edited my post -- I wrote the wrong thing for the last 2 images. The car was pretty fast before, but it turns out I had a rubber connector on a boost tube that was split across the middle. I dont know how I missed that, but the car wouldn't build much boost. I don't know how the car will feel now (Im afraid to get on it because the trigger wheel loosens up at higher RPMs), but I hit the gas about as much as I usually would with my split connector on the way to the dyno at arouns 2500rpm and it scared me! I didn't think the car would take off that quickly. On the dyno, I also rana little over 21psi, where before with the same wastegate setting I couldn't build past 16 or so. The split got so bad near the end that I couldn't build much over 12psi! I don't know what to expect for drag times. I guess that 11s would be possible, but I don't think my transmission or axles can handle that kind of driving. I drive my car like an old lady most of the time and I think that everything will hold up fine for now, but I don't think I'll hit the strip until I start building another transmission. The car is pretty streetable, but I still have an idle problem I need to work out. Other than that, every tiem I tune the car it drives a little nicer and runs a little smoother, and the low end torque is so much more than I expected I would have. Off boost, the car still feel plenty powerful, and when the boost comes in it is pretty wild. Gas mileage isn't bad at all when I'm not in boost. Because I have the TEC3, I can program it to run just enough fuel to keep the air/fuel ratio right when I'm cruising. Since the engine isnt taking in much more air than a stock Quad when cruising, gas mileage is good until I lay into it. Thanks everyone!! Tony -- give me or my dad a call sometime; I'll take you out when I fix the trigger wheel!
--Bryson

quote Originally posted by bryson: I also have dyno vids, but not of the final run. If anyone can post vids PM or email me. Thanks! --Bryson

Hi Bryson!

Yeah, sorry about the lack of posts from yours truly. I was really sick for awhile. Some virus took a good hold on me, and I was coughing up florescent yellow mucus... yuck!

I have a new domain, www.suprememotorsports.com, with 500MB on it, so, um, yeah, I have plenty of room now. How big are those vids????

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PETTY OFFICER (no more airman!) Michael C Casaceli
Patrol Squadron Ten, United States Navy
1988 Pontiac Fiero 2.5L, soon to be 2.2L Ecotec Turbo (THE PROJECT HAS STARTED!!!)
1988 Oldsmobile Firenza 2.0L non-turbo (R.I.P.my beloved J-body. KIA by a Ford)
1994 Chevy S-10 4.3, it's finally here, and it is gorgeous!

Bryson, very impressive. I just read the whole thread over again. So what exactly are you running for the water to air? Where did you locate it? Im looking into a spearco, and am about to buy. Sounds like things are working out well for your setup. Thats some crazy power. That thing is a V8 killer for sure

Ryan

quote Originally posted by fieroX: Im looking into a spearco, and am about to buy. Ryan

Spearco is a good choice, if not the best. Vortec is smaller, simpler, and the blow-off valve flange is built into the intercooler, but for best overall performance, Spearco is the best.

*if* your interested, there is a local guy here, selling a 1991 olds 442, new paint, strong running high output quad4, with 5 speed, and he has an extra quad4 high output with bad head and extra 5 speed transmission, He lost the title to the car and the previous owner lives in indiana, so getting a title is next to impossible for him, he was so pissed off that he cant put it on the road now that he said he will take $650 for the whole car (runs strong)

would make a great start for extra parts.

matthew

How bout a pic of that engine compartment?

how do you set the water intercooler up. how much flow is needed from the waterpump.

hans

The intercooler is a unit with a Spearco 2-231 core with custom endtanks. I saw that the inlet was 2" (the same as my turbo outlet) and that the outlet was 2 3/4" (same as my throttle body), so it fit perfectly! For the water pump for the intercooler, I bought a ShurFlo unit -- I'm not sure of the part number because I bought it locally, but I can get part numbers and a comprehensive list of what all is needed. I'll try to get pictures of the setup tomorrow for everyone. As far as I can remember, I purchased:
Spearco core air/water IC
3/4" pipe > 1/2" barb Aeroquip socketless fittings
heatercore for heat exchanger
1/2" hose
water pump (included 1/2" barb fittings)
resevoir with 1/2" barb fittings
relay
12 ga. and 16ga. wire
inline fusable link
fuse

Thats all I can think of for now, but I'll edit this if I need. For the acohol/water injection I used a 60/40 water/methanol mix, and I used this site for reference: http://members.cox.net/stevemonroe/AlcoholInjMod.html
I used the TEC3 to cut it on slowly instead of all at once, but a pressure activated switch will work just fine. Thanks!
--Bryson

[This message has been edited by bryson (edited 06-07-2004).]

Is that heater core enough of an exchanger for everything to stay cool and effecient? Ive heard that its optimum to have 260 square inches of heat exchanger surface to remain optimum. I bought a GSXR 1000 radiator with fan for my exchanger. Got any recent pix up yet? Im ready to check this thing out.

quote Originally posted by bryson: If you watch the second and third dyno graphs, you see that the O2 reading gets rich right where the spark is missing, but right before it I was up in the 12:1 area.

That's odd... it should go lean when mis-firing (more oxygen in the exhaust)

0.25 isn't much of a gap... the TEC3 can do coil per cylinder, right? How is your ignition currently set up? You might try LS1 coils... Supra guys are using them with good success or so I hear.

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'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

I thought that it would go lean as well, because I thought that the o2 sensor read the amount of oxygen in the exhaust, but the guys that run the dyno said that the raw fuel could mess up the readings, or maybe it was the engine recovering from the miss. Either way, once I fixe it I added fuel all over the map and still ran a little lean. The gap on the plugs is pretty tight, but I think it is alright. It's not detonating, and the acohol keeps the combustion chamber pretty cool, so I can't think of anything else it could hurt. I haven't pulled the plugs yet to see how they look, but the car is driving fine. I think that the TEC has the ability to go coil per cylinder, but right now I have it set up for a waste-spark application, where it fires in pairs. I'm using the coil pack from electromotive, so I'm pretty sure it is adequate, although maybe no tthe best. Thanks!
--Bryson

Thats unreal man. How long do you think the motor will last if driven with some zest? My V8 wont be able to beat you, but I just got a Ninja It might keep up. Good work.

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1986 GT, LT1/4T60E
http://hometown.aol.com/ptfiero/index.html
On the forum
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/045554.html
more in depth look
http://dtcc.cz28.com/LT1build/index.htm

Maybe I missed this info;

Were the dyno numbers with the split tube or was the tube fixed?

What octane gas was used for the dyno pulls?

Thank you.

quote Originally posted by Will: That's odd... it should go lean when mis-firing (more oxygen in the exhaust) 0.25 isn't much of a gap... the TEC3 can do coil per cylinder, right? How is your ignition currently set up? You might try LS1 coils... Supra guys are using them with good success or so I hear.

When it goes way rich, it will cause misfires because the A/F mixture is so rich. Rich mixtures are much harder to fire than a stoich mixtures. Here is a dyno sheet of the 3.8lt firebird kit we released earler this year. This car has no computer tuning and uses an FMU for enrichment. The booster pump in series with the stock fuel pump makes for LOTS of fuel pressure. Unfortunately it doesn't show the A/F readings but it was off the chart rich at this point. This was a 15psi run on an otherwise stock engine. Chart is SAE not STD corrected and the pull wasn't made to redline for obivous reasons

The popping you hear on an excessively lean run is normally detonation!

Bryson - You've done an awesome job on your car and made a great thread showing everyone what you've done. Congrats on your success and I can't wait to see how it turns out. If you have any turbo related questions, needs, please let me know!

quote Originally posted by caddyrocket: When it goes way rich, it will cause misfires because the A/F mixture is so rich. Rich mixtures are much harder to fire than a stoich mixtures. Here is a dyno sheet of the 3.8lt firebird kit we released earler this year. This car has no computer tuning and uses an FMU for enrichment. The booster pump in series with the stock fuel pump makes for LOTS of fuel pressure. Unfortunately it doesn't show the A/F readings but it was off the chart rich at this point. This was a 15psi run on an otherwise stock engine. Chart is SAE not STD corrected and the pull wasn't made to redline for obivous reasons

Are we on the same frequency? Yeah, a way rich engine will misfire, but the O2 will read lean because there's unburned oxygen in the exhaust.
Of course dumping raw fuel on an O2 sensor won't help its performance....

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'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

Awesome job so far. There goes MY chances of having (someday) the fastest 4 banger Fiero in SC.

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I have the precious gift of patience.....it just takes too long to use it!

quote Originally posted by Will: Are we on the same frequency? Yeah, a way rich engine will misfire, but the O2 will read lean because there's unburned oxygen in the exhaust. Of course dumping raw fuel on an O2 sensor won't help its performance....

Yeah, we are on the same frequency. The 02 sensor will still read rich despite the misfire events because, while their is more oxygen in the sample it's testing, their is more fuel as well. Galvanic oxygen sensors measure the oxygen contact by generating a current. The current is generated based on the oxygen consumed to create hydroxyl ions and lead oxide. In a excessively rich enviroment, there will be fewer parts per sample of oxygen atoms to use. So while their is unused oxygen in a rich enviroment, there are a lot of things in there too. Therefore an 02 sensor will read accurately rich in a misfire event caused by an excessively rich air fuel mixture.

http://forums.clubsi.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB4&Number=4202698&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

Ahhhhhhh. awesome, figures a guy like you would be in dealings with the DSM community, those boost crazy folks, I love em!
my brother has a 92 AWD talon, 6 bolt motor and the LSD, the crown jewel of DSM! Nice build, love to see the car someday, take it to the track please!!!!!!!

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---"Didn't those catch fire?"---
---"Why didn't you get an MR2?"---
---"The engine is WHERE?"---
---Liking Fiero's is a lonely business---

Those numbers were after I got the tube fixed. I was running regular 93 octane. I still need to do some tuning, but the dyno is coming back down in a few weeks. By then I want to be able to run around 27psi, and John in his RX7 wants to be able to do about 30.
When I fixed the spark blowout, the car stayed smooth and did get a little leaner, so I think all I need to do now is fix this crank trigger wheel so that I can run the car out al ittle more. The power dropping off suprises me because the cams I have in here are pretty large. 238*at .050 and .430" lift seems pretty large, but they are ground at 112* lobe centers. Would that make a difference at the top end? I'm happy with the amount of torque I'm making, and hopefully once I get some bugs worked out I can pull over 410 at the same boost.
As for the Si forum, all I can say is that I built this car for under $10k (including the car), and now I have something that is really unique. Besides, I enjoy working on the car and the challenge of figuring out how to make something as much as I like driving it. What fun is buying parts already made for it? :P Ahh oh well, to each his own. I'm happy and that's plenty for me Take care!
--Bryson

I just thought it's interesting that talk of the car is circulating that far.

quote Originally posted by bryson: As for the Si forum, all I can say is that I built this car for under $10k (including the car), and now I have something that is really unique.

Yes, that is interesting. It is also interesting to see peoples' responses. Much about the authors can be read between the lines. Some have knowledge and appreciation. As Bryson said, he built the car for himself, not anyone else. I for one thank you, and everyone else on this forum for your support and encouragement. When I was 16, I had trouble waiting 15 minutes for something, much less 15 months. You people helped him tremendously during that time. Thanks again!

Bill

COOL

how about some video

After reading this post and seeing the dyno data, I must say that I am amazed that you are pulling this much HP from the Quad four engine. It's an absolutely incredible achievement. I do have questions about the long term durability of the engine at this power level but a few runs at the track should answer this question. Great job and best of luck. You have a unique powerful light weight engine in a car that will be a real screamer, a good looker and perhaps will offer decent mileage too.

Thanks for the compliments! The engine seems like it will hold up alright, but I only get on the gas occasionally. At the track I am more concerned with the transmission than anything else. Lately I have been really suprised with the gas mileage. The car still has a few little things I need to work on (read: tuning), but I am enjoying the car as of now. Thanks again!
--Bryson

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: http://forums.clubsi.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB4&Number=4202698 &page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

That wolf fellow is dumbass. I wish he lived a little closer so we could compare times. WHo would advertise a 14.1 with that much power? I dont make much more than that, and I run a 13.2.

Bryson :
I read your posts over on the juvi-board, go give your dad (and mom) a hug, they've done a good job, patience, usable intellect, persistence,
ambition, the ability to self-reward, these are all traits for success, I'm sure you'll be an asset in any career path you choose. You have the ability to create your own good fortune! Your dad is lucky .... neither of my daughters are showing much of an interest in mechanics, but we do share hobbies, photography and music, and I trust their paths will be as smooth as yours!
Norm

Um, yeah, what he said. Ditto for me

Went down the same road with my complete suspension and brake system overhaul and upgrade. Taking up my 'rent's garage for months on end.

BUMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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PETTY OFFICER (no more airman!) Michael C Casaceli
Patrol Squadron Ten, United States Navy
1988 Pontiac Fiero 2.5L, soon to be 2.2L Ecotec Turbo (THE PROJECT HAS STARTED!!!)
1988 Oldsmobile Firenza 2.0L non-turbo (R.I.P.my beloved J-body. KIA by a Ford)
1994 Chevy S-10 4.3, it's finally here, and it is gorgeous!

[This message has been edited by fieroturbo (edited 06-16-2004).]

I'll just way this.... you rock!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!