Just because it looks cleaner, and to balance out some of the 300lbs I put in the rear

Not to debate the pros and cons of the Northstar engine swap, but I can safely tell you that working out the electronics so that the ECM runs the engine correctly is not an easy task.
Many comments on the N* not performing well have to do with the fact that most of these installations are not running correctly. If ALL of the inputs that the ECM needs to see are not there, the ECM goes into failsafe or limp home mode. If this happens the engine won't produce much over 200HP.
For proper engine management to occur and full power reached, you'll need to find a way to simulate the ABS input, VATS, A/C compressor feedback, and a few other body electronics inputs or rewrite the program.
Getting the complex N* ECM to work correctly is a job for a master programmer. The electronics is one reason that I have not considered this swap. Many people report that the 4.9L is actually faster so why take on such an agressive project? Regardless I wish you luck with the swap.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo Best 0-60 5.2 seconds
http://www.turbochargerpower.com/turbo.htm

I'm an electronics person, in case the tranny controller doesn't give it away... that being said, reusing the stock ECM scared the bejezus outta me. I'll either be going with the holley 950, or the electromotive tec3. I appreciate your concern though

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Not to debate the pros and cons of the Northstar engine swap, but I can safely tell you that working out the electronics so that the ECM runs the engine correctly is not an easy task. Many comments on the N* not performing well have to do with the fact that most of these installations are not running correctly. If ALL of the inputs that the ECM needs to see are not there, the ECM goes into failsafe or limp home mode. If this happens the engine won't produce much over 200HP. For proper engine management to occur and full power reached, you'll need to find a way to simulate the ABS input, VATS, A/C compressor feedback, and a few other body electronics inputs or rewrite the program. Getting the complex N* ECM to work correctly is a job for a master programmer. The electronics is one reason that I have not considered this swap. Many people report that the 4.9L is actually faster so why take on such an agressive project? Regardless I wish you luck with the swap.

As for the electronics, I am using the stock ECM. VATS was no problem and won't cause engine to run in derate. ABS was the only real problem that I had, but I have a special chip that was programed by GM that has the ABS turned off. Car runs real strong. None of the body inputs will cause a derate besides the ABS. As far as the A/C I have that hooked up and working correctly. I have the SES light hooked up and operational. Light does not come on. The only codes that are stored are for the cruise control, I am using the stock cruise control, and for the instrument cluster. As far as the 4.9 being quicker NOT. It MIGHT be up to 20 mph. Yes I seen the 4.9 thread with the graph showing it faster to 30 mph., but that was in a 4000 lb. car. Lighten the load on both engines and I think the N* will gain the most. Also I don't think 200hp will get a Fiero down the 1/4 mile in the mid 13 seconds, which is what most of the N* that have been to the track run.

edited because I thought of more stuff.
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Signature courtesy of MinnGreen.

[This message has been edited by Fiero STS (edited 07-09-2004).]

A correctly functioning stock Northstar (with a manual transmission) runs 12's. 'nuff said.

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'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

My images are so horrible... I feel sorry for you guys, trying to interpret my pictures But anyways, front mount battery as promised:

I think I saw this in iraq once...

That's the pic of my "crossover tube". I'm using a 1.25" copper tubing ($15 for 10' ) for that. I'll be picking up radiator hoses tomorrow, and I'll share the application for that when I've got it. Also, to hook up the front battery, I used 2 gauge wire for the +, run to an aux terminal in the rear, and 2 gauge for the - , connected to the frame up front, and 4 gauge from the frame to the engine. Looks like it's starting to take shape here... getting exciting.

Final test fit:

Shows the arc I had to grind into the right side hinge:

Taking inspiration from Aaron88, I screwed a 1" 3' length of aluminum to the firewall, and ziptied the heater hoses to it. It mounts using 2 existing brackets (can't remember what they were for originally...hmm... It clears the maximum range of the water pump tensioner by about 1/4".

This pic shows the driver's side and all the coolant hookups that need to be done... I did not have the option of using the original heater tubing, as I didn't have it... So, I used two 3/4" 90* elbows, and one 45* elbow to get this orientation. The other heater hose will be hooked up with the same bends I believe.

The main coolant hoses were standard off-the-shelf items. I have the part numbers in case somebody can crossreference them?

The 1.5 to 1.25 hose, goes from therm. to coolant crossover: (E)71203cs
(this hose was cut, and one end is used for the thermostat side of the crossover, and the other is used to connect the crossover to the coolant pipe. There was a metal spring in this hose that needed to be cut as well.)

The 1.25" hose, goes from water manifold to drivers side coolant tube: (C)71233cs
I'll try to get the brand name on monday, as the parts store is closed right now.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Good start!

indeed, i agree very much.. i knwo a guy who can remove the VATS code for you, hsi name is Tyre Daniely, and his email address is tdaniely@yahoo.com . he lives in GA.

also, I noticed that you are using a deville northstar engine, and if im not mistaken that verison of the northstar is 275 HP, wheres as the seville STS ( vin 9) verison, is 300 HP. i am almost postive that the only difference between the two engiens is the heads and maybe the camshafts..

I recently bought a 2000 STS touring coupe block from the wrecker service, to pull the pistons and use them in my 4.9L caddy engine. I scrapped the lower portion of the block, sold the intake, and kept the heads, complete with sensors, camshafts, and bolts. the engine had only had 26K miles on it. I have no use for the heads, so i figured someone in this thread might want to buy them.. I am asking for $400 OBO for the complete set, and ill even throw in all the sensors i pulled from the engine as well. I am also open to a trade and some cash, as I need an economy geared 4 speed muncie tranny from an '84 fiero, the 5th digit in the VIN number would be "E" from the car it comes out of..

my email address is aaronrus@tampabay.rr.com

Heads are the same, intake cams are different
The Y2K intake manifold has larger runners than the early manifold. I'm in the market for one if anyone runs across another.

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'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

quote Originally posted by Will: A correctly functioning stock Northstar (with a manual transmission) runs 12's. 'nuff said.

BOOLshit.. 295 ft lbs of torque of the northstar with any of the fiero manuals will NOt get into the 12's .. low 13's, MAYBE

quote Originally posted by aaronrus: also, I noticed that you are using a deville northstar engine, and if im not mistaken that verison of the northstar is 275 HP, wheres as the seville STS ( vin 9) verison, is 300 HP. i am almost postive that the only difference between the two engiens is the heads and maybe the camshafts..

Not sure where you got your information, but my engine is a 1995 VIN 9, I mic'd the intake cam myself to make sure. That's the only difference between the two engines, no other visible/discernable differences exist.

quote $400

I appreciate the gesture, but that belongs in the mall or on ebay. This is a buildup thread, and I would like to keep it like that.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: I appreciate the gesture, but that belongs in the mall or on ebay. This is a buildup thread, and I would like to keep it like that.

teh guy who started this thread, caddy rocket.. i was talking about HIS engien

quote Originally posted by aaronrus: teh guy who started this thread, caddy rocket.. i was talking about HIS engien

I do not believe he owns it anymore. He was trying to sell it a ways back to work on another project of his.

quote Originally posted by aaronrus: BOOLshit.. 295 ft lbs of torque of the northstar with any of the fiero manuals will NOt get into the 12's .. low 13's, MAYBE

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'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

quote Originally posted by Will:

Nice!

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-Chris - Custom Gun Metal 86 GT 3.4 5spd
3.4 SOLD & 4.9 being installed

"It's too low, too rough, too loud, drinks gas, it's totally impractical, but damn good lookin. In other words, It's almost perfect!"
Build up tread or MODS w/ Pics

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: I'll try to get the brand name on monday, as the parts store is closed right now.

Back on topic, the brand for the hoses is "Dayco Products". I tried to get a crossreference/make/model for them, but couldn't.

quote Originally posted by aaronrus: BOOLshit.. 295 ft lbs of torque of the northstar with any of the fiero manuals will NOt get into the 12's .. low 13's, MAYBE

HEHEHEHEHE

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Bobby from NW Indiana
86 Fiero GT, Looking to ad a 93 Northstar soon
thespeedshop@sbcglobal.net

quote Originally posted by aaronrus: BOOLshit.. 295 ft lbs of torque of the northstar with any of the fiero manuals will NOt get into the 12's .. low 13's, MAYBE

Perhaps. I think the N* is better at roadracing applications with their easy to achieve 8k rpm redline. I think the N* with an auto is a waste, and a N* with a stick and cams to run it to 8k is sweet, as the gearing available caters to it. With the crappy stick trannies available, you don't wanna throw 350lbs + of torque into it. The N* mirrors indy type engines, obviously, so why not leave it to its applications? Could you imagine the sound of a N* at 8k? Wow.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: I do not believe he owns it anymore. He was trying to sell it a ways back to work on another project of his.

Yup, I sold mine. I'm horrible about switching interests between projects and the getting the computer to work the way I wanted it to turned out to be more time/energy/patience than I had to invest in the project. I already had the 3800 so I'm building the hell out of it for some boost. But I've had so many customer cars to work on, I've made little progress on either of mine. Hopefully that will change this weekend.

Anyway, Ryan, awesome you kept the thread alive. Looks like you are having some fun with it. Good luck!

quote Originally posted by caddyrocket: I'm horrible about switching interests between projects

I'm the same way. I have piles of half-finished projects strewn about

quote Anyway, Ryan, awesome you kept the thread alive. Looks like you are having some fun with it. Good luck!

Thanks for the kind words! It sure is a load of fun. Keeps me busy during the summer at least I think it'll be more fun driving it than building it though...

UPDATE: Finally all the parts are in (special thanks to Darrell Morse ), so now I can get the cradle mounted for the final time. (dun dun dun) Because I didn't want to wait, I decided it would be best to put the engine in now without air conditioning, and install the A/C as a winter project. (fun huh?) So, I decided to use Will's routing technique for the belt, which can go back to the original setup no prob.

I also picked up the stock idler as shown in the pic, as I wasn't sure the alt would have enough contact area without it... The belt size I used was a 52.2" 6 rib belt. It puts the indicator right in the middle of the wear marker, which I think is acceptable.

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 08-05-2004).]

No A/C?
Oh... Minnesota

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'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

hey it still gets to the 90's in the summer

Ryan you, look how dirty this is

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Bobby from NW Indiana
86 Fiero GT, Looking to ad a 93 Northstar soon
thespeedshop@sbcglobal.net

Yes i'm got board

Way to go Will, sorry I'll go to bed now

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Bobby from NW Indiana
86 Fiero GT, Looking to ad a 93 Northstar soon
thespeedshop@sbcglobal.net

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Taking inspiration from Aaron88, I screwed a 1" 3' length of aluminum to the firewall, and ziptied the heater hoses to it. It mounts using 2 existing brackets (can't remember what they were for originally...hmm... It clears the maximum range of the water pump tensioner by about 1/4".

I’m not sure why I hadn’t noticed this line before but the clearance issue was something I noticed as well when I made my first bracket. That’s why I changed the design, the bracket I used looks a lot like a hockey stick. It allows the hose to hang below the pulley, with lots of clearance.

It’s my fault for using a photo in my thread that didn’t show the end of the bracket that has the curve. As I go though my archive photo’s it seems that I don’t have any photos showing the curved end of this bracket. But you can see from my thread that my hoses hang much lower than yours. Sorry for being unclear on that point.

Aaron

.

[This message has been edited by aaron88 (edited 08-06-2004).]

As my engine is apart right now, I can't go and look at it...

Is there enough room between the belt and the bracket to put a bolt into the hole circled in green? If so, you could cut the bracket approximately at the red line and save yourself some cutting on the hood hinge support.

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'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

Ryan you should not need the strut brace on your engine. Your cradle is basicly the same as mine and I don't seem to be having any issues. Also the Chris Moore cars I looked at did not use the strut brace. Design 1 uses them but they also have rubber engine mounts.

quote Originally posted by Will: Is there enough room between the belt and the bracket to put a bolt into the hole circled in green? If so, you could cut the bracket approximately at the red line and save yourself some cutting on the hood hinge support.

No, I had to move the bolt from that location into where it's at now. The belt would need to go straight through the bolt. The hood hinge is already cut, so all's well there. I'm having a heck of a time getting my cradle in though, the front poly is being a b*tc#. I had the rear two bolts in, and tried getting the front in, but it was way too tight. So... I dropped it back out, and ground the poly bushings down to the metal bushings on the inside of them. Shaved off probably a good 0.050 - 0.100" on each. HOPEFULLY, now it'll just pop right in with no resistance. Just in case, I lubed the sides up with moly grease. I ain't doing this twice. Aaron - so far the bracket I have seems to work as shown. I may have to fudge with the hoses a bit, but clearances are good to go. So... <shrug>

I was joking!!!!!

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Bobby from NW Indiana
86 Fiero GT, Looking to ad a 93 Northstar soon
thespeedshop@sbcglobal.net

For anyone who's going with the 4t80e, these next few pics should help you out...

This is a pic of what I'm using for the shift arm on the transmission... On the left/top is the stock caddy shift arm, on the right/bottom is the stock fiero shift arm that has had the square alignment hole drilled out (I think it was 1/2"). This allows infinite adjustment to the shift arm position... More about this later.

This is the bracket I made, a combination of the fiero bracket face, and some 1/8"x2" steel stock. It mounts in the place the stock caddy bracket was, and points the cable to the arm.

and another

here's a pic showing it's mounting location:

Now the lever needs to be 180 degrees from where it is on the caddy for it to work with the fiero's backwards shift scheme. I figured I needed to have enough range for the motions, so I put the transmission and the shifter in drive, and made the bracket so the shift arm could be roughly 90 degrees to the shift cable. After you get your bracket done, you install it, and the (drilled out) fiero arm on bottom, and normal caddy arm on top... Install the cable on the fiero arm, and clamp down on the two arms (again, with the tranny and shifter still in drive). Tack weld the arms together, recheck to make sure it goes through the gears, weld full, and cut off the caddy side of the arm. Believe it or not, the stock fiero shifter allows you to get to all 4 'manual' gears.

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 08-13-2004).]

Thats how I did mine. except I mated the caddy cable bracket and the Fiero cable brackets.

quote Originally posted by Fiero STS: Thats how I did mine. except I mated the caddy cable bracket and the Fiero cable brackets.

Thanks for the help on that btw. I never would have guessed just using the fiero shift arm was all I needed to get the shift detents to line up

Make sure that you monitor your ph of the cooling system fluid regularly. Copper is a fairly soft metal and if the ph becomes too acid (corrosive) it will pinhole the copper. Also make sure your grounds are clean and tight to insure you control the electrolosis that occurres in newer engines. Also, don't used silica based anti-freeze. Make sure the coolant is one of the new extended life silica free formulas.

Since we're on the topic of coolant... I'll add this. With these engines, it is VERY, *VERY* important to add coolant supplement pellets/powder to the system. Without it, your headgasket may be eaten through by rusting (very common problem with the 93-95 engines which use the silicated/conventional green coolant, but happens on the 96+ engines when the coolant isn't maintained), or your waterpump seal may start leaking (again, very common on the 93-95 engines due to the abrasiveness of the silicates) It is not recommended to switch over to a DexCool type coolant after the green stuff has been in the system. It is considered "contaminated" after that, and you lose all the benefits of dexcool (longer life for seals, and coolant). Since the fiero originally had the green stuff, I recommend just sticking with it.

Oh, btw, you can get the supplement from GM, or it's the same stuff as this:

The G12BP and HDC are what you want. Basically ground up ginger root, walnut shells, and anticorrosion crap. The northstar originally came with this stuff from the factory. Takes 3 tablets or 1 tube of the powder. Whoops, forgot the most important part: You can get it at walmart

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 08-15-2004).]

I want to point out a couple revisions I've made... I dropped the cradle the past week to install the stock caddy crossover. It should be noted that the crossover is roughly 2.25". Both manifolds for that fact, are 2.25" outlets, so it would do little good to increase the exhaust size beyond that.

I originally had dual cats, and resonated tips (completely seperate routings for both banks), but it was too loud for my taste. It sounded like a truck or muscle car, and I wanted more of a "sleeper" sound. So... Today I just about finished welding the main exhaust pieces up. I cut the bottom half of the trunk out (shoot... didn't get pics of that... I'll see what I can do), and now have the same shorty cats, and now additionally, 2 full size "Cherry Bomb SuperTurbo" mufflers. Picked them up for $25 ea from autozone. Preliminary tests (i.e. me screaming/yelling into them) show that the mufflers are about 50% quieter than the cats, and with them both in series, the sound is greatly reduced (to like 20% or so!). I am excited to hear what it sounds like on startup. It should sound like a new animal. Anywho, I'll try to get pics of the exhaust as well. It was a tight fit. So tight in fact, I had to put a short length of flex tubing to be able to install the second half with the first half in place.

Oh, also, when I dropped the engine, I noticed the vacuum booster line was being pinched by the engine. To correct this, I wrapped some standard galvanized fencing wire around a drill bit to make a make-shift spring, and installed that into the hose on the firewall-connection end. Now it radiuses the 90* bend, and should keep the engine from pinching it off against the wall.

I also forgot to put some kind of 'retainer' on the transmission cooler lines, and I noticed one of the hard to soft line connections was getting a little leaky. I don't have a hard line beader, so I just flared the ends a bit, slipped the hose on with a hose clamp, and now the connections are solid.

Bump?