thanks for the infor on swaping the monte engine. I'd still like some of the other questions answered please! Thanks!
Jeff

fieromadman give me a call and come look at my engine. if you like the setup i can probably set you up with a power steering eliminator and dogbone bracket if you like the way mine is done.

dude, i forgot all about you! I'll have to give you a call now! I want a ride too! I got my engine and what-not, you should come and help me

quote Originally posted by fieromadman: so a few question that i have had recently on this swap are this: 1. When i dissconnect a/c do i have to worry aobut anything special???

Yes, only if the system still has refrigerant in it. If not, you don't have to worry just unhook everything and make sure you plug all holes so no debris can get in. If your system still has refrigerant in there, you should take the car to a shop and have them reclaim the system. Most shops will do this for free because they can resell your refrigerant. If your system has been, or will be sitting empty for some time during the swap you should flush the system and replace the accumulator and oriface tube.

quote 2. Should i just gut the power steering pump and put it in or make an idler setup?

You don't have to use the P/S pump if you don't want to, the idler setup is cheap enough. If you use the P/S pump remember you have to loop the line and keep fluid in there for the pump bearings.

quote 3. How exactly does darths dogbone mount to the engine?

My dog bone bolts to the factory 3.4 lift bracket. The lift bracket has a flat area with a hole already drilled in it as well as another hole where the timing cover bolts to. These are the only two holes I am using. The bulk of the force on the dog-bone/lift bracket is going to be trying to push the bracket towards the front of the car, which happens during accelleration. In any case the factory lift bracket bolts between the head and timing cover as well as to the rear head towards the top of the engine to triangulate it for enhanced strength.

quote 4. Will a spec Stage II clutch hold this power reliably?

I would assume a spec clutch would work just fine, depending on how you drive. In fact I am using a stock replacement Luk clutch in this car and it should offer years of trouble free service. I have noticed the clutch debate comes up quite often on this board. I think the reason why so many people go thru clutches on stock or mild engines (I consider the 3.4 DOHC engine to be a "mild" engine) is because people don't know how to properly drive a stick car. I have rode with people in stick cars where they bring the RPM's up to 3000 and then slowly let off the clutch to take off from a stop, allowing for what seems to be an eternity of slip time. This is what wears out clutches and glazes flywheels. Another bad habit that tends to accelerate the wear of clutches is the tendancy of people to downshift the trans in order to slow the car down. Obviously brake pads are easier and cheaper to replace than a clutch.

The purpose of this car is to be a daily driver/show car, not a race car that will see severe track duty so the Luk unit should last a long time.

quote 5. When im wiring the harnesses together how am i gonna know that the wires are the right length or should i not worry about that?

When I do a custom harness I first install the engine. Then, I completely remove all tape and covering from whatever harness I plan to use and then install it on the car. Then I just start with a sensor or controlled device and see if the wiring can go to that component like it is or if it needs to be shortened or lengthened. You also have to determine where and how you want to route the wiring, taking care to keep it away from exhaust or moving parts.

quote 6. Why does the computer need to know the speed of the car? If i dont want a custom ship burned right away am i going to be okay without it?

The computer needs to know vehicle speed in order to accurately control decel fuel cutoff and stall saver programs / idle speed management amoung other things. Without decel cutoff you will get those annoying pops out the exhaust and possibly even backfires and without the stall saver/idle management the engine could stall on a quick decel. I offer custom chip reprogramming like the one needed for the 3.4 DOHC swap into a Fiero for only $35 + shipping. I think that is a cheap price to pay for having a car that runs and drives correctly.

I have to say, Darth is the man when it comes to chip burning. He's already burned mine twice and both times it's done and returned within a couple of days. The first burn he did for me was for a TDC 3.4 setup with a turbo. I decided I was going to hold off on the turbo for a while so I sent it back and he "unturboed" it for me. But now I'm leaning toward turbo again... SOON!! Hear that Ryan?? But I'm going to wait to see which incarnation appears under my decklid before I bother him again. Anyway, you can't go wrong with his chip service. (shameless plug finished for now...)

-Rick

Yellowartero...well since Darth was out of town and it was a beautiful day I spent about three and a half hours cleaning your interior...I removed about four pounds of dust and debris and though it may not be ready to show any time soon at least it is clean enough to go get those groceries your needing! Sorry to say, but it was a little on the gross side...it amazes me what people will leave in their cars as they sell them! This guy even left a signed check from his insurance company for $160!!! (I kept it in case you know the guy you bought this from, he'll probably get a kick out of it since it is way past being good to cash!) I discovered all kinds of interesting things though...like nasty combos and doritos lurking under the seats...guess he liked salty snacks! A whopping 9 cents (saved 'em for you too, what's the exchange rate these days?) There was even stop smoking patch! I think I am going to have Darth take out the seats so I can properly vacuum under them, it isn't very clean under there! Unfortunately I also found a lot of broken safety glass which pretty much cinches the "it's been wrecked before" thought. But on a happier note I removed several spiders that I think have been living in there since before we picked it up! The plastic interior came pretty darn clean though...looks almost new although by cleaning you can now see what needs replacing...what I can see in the interior though is what needs replacing isn't that terribly expensive. I still need to clean the carpets...after vacuuming it shows the stains but they seem to lift (the ones I tried) very easily. I think it must just be spilled coke or something. I do have a question for you though...Do you have a preference of what brand of armour all type product I use for the interior? Some people are picky about their cars and I want you to be happy when you see it. It almost looks like an entirely different car then the one we picked up in Michigan! Hope you had before pictures so you can tell the difference! Like I've said before...I'm sure this car will receive the TLC it deserves when it gets back to you...hopefully soon.

Adjuster:

You made my day! I haven't had a good chuckle for a long time (too much stress right now). It seems that everybody is working on my car but me!!! I've only spent a few hours with it ... less than you!!! It just goes to show how Fiero people work together even when they don't know each other! I know I won't be any where near the first on to drive it either, but that's OK. I know I have the dash to repair. I have a fellow up here that makes amazing repairs so that's an easy fix. The car was hit on the front, so I know I've got some work to get it a little better. I need a fender for sure and there's a 'dent' in one of the doors so I might as well replace that too. Then I hope it goes to paint. Let's hope I can get it across the border OK!!!

BTW, my wife thinks you are nuts cleaning a car for a guy you don't know. She wants to know if you vacuum and cook too; if so you are welcome to visit!

John
P.S. Any kind of Armour All will do. I owe you!! Thanks.

YellowArtero...PM sent

Yellow Artero...well I can officially say I wrenched on your car! Had to help Darth with the A/C lines and then I removed the seats and cleaned under them, I was right that was the best course of action. I even got out the upolstry cleaner and removed a few stains...however I was unable to remove or even touch some mysterious pink stuff on the passenger side but it is hidden under the floor mat at least. I also found you some more change, about a buck worth. I used armour all on all the interior plastic pieces, the interior isn't that bad now, I've seen lots worse! RareW66 came over tonight and inspected our work, he said it even smelled nice (I use citrus cleaner). Well Darth's still working, I need to go help him bleed the brakes...but your project is coming along rather nicely!

***UPDATE***

Rear brakes are together but the parking brake portion needs to be adjusted yet. Tranny is filled with Syncromesh fluid and ready to go. The A/C system held a vacuum for about 1 hour with no sign of leaks so I injected the oil and 1 can of refrigerant and installed the A/C high side pressure sensor for the ECM. Got the A/C pressure sensor wired up to the ECM and it reports accurately on the scan tool. Still need to run the wire for the clutch switch and talk to Mr. Artero about the cruise control option. All that needs done now is to finish the exhaust, fill with coolant and gas, and fire her off!

So if i have you burn me a chip, even though I have a manual chip, should I still do it? I know that there is a problem with the speedo working witht the Fiero speedo, would this correct that problem? If not, how would I correct the speedo problem?

quote Originally posted by fieromadman: So if i have you burn me a chip, even though I have a manual chip, should I still do it? I know that there is a problem with the speedo working witht the Fiero speedo, would this correct that problem? If not, how would I correct the speedo problem?

The stock 3.4 DOHC chip wants to see 24,000 pulses per mile from the VSS sensor. The stock Fiero unit puts out 4000ppm which is not enough for the stock chip. There are a couple of ways you can rectify this problem. Either you can change the VSS sensor and reluctor wheel in the transmission (requires trans dissasembly) or you can have me do you a custom chip. If you choose to leave the stock Fiero VSS sensor in there you can leave the Fiero's speedo hooked to that sensor and just splice in the ECM wires for the VSS, as explained earlier in this thread.

SHE RUNS! I fired her up today, only have the exhaust finished to and including the muffler so it is still a little loud, the exit pipes and tips should solve that. I was working on wiring up the cruise switch but noticed the clutch pedal assy had the common bent problem I have heard about on most Fieros so I spent some time straightening it and welding a problem area. It will probably still need to be replaced down the road but it should work fine for a little while. Sorry I haven't posted any pics in a while but aside from the exhaust there really isn't much to show.

Darth; I have a separate thread started on this but thought I would throw a question in here since it IS pretty appropriate (I guess ) - have you ever used a 284 trans in a swap? I have a complete 3.4 tdc with 284 5 spd package but I keep seeing (as you are doing) people using other transmissions for this engine. Is there some problem that I am not seeing? Shifter/cables? Axles? doesn't fit for some reason? I would think that this trans would be ideal for the increased power output of the 3.4.....??? Am I missing something or is it simply and solely because that trans is so rare?
Any input would be much appreciated. I hope to be putting that package into the cradle (or starting to test fit, anyway) a bit later this summer and have recently stumbled across a few other transmissions (and HAVE a getrag 4 spd now....!) and wonder if I should be planning on using a different trans altho that seems bizarre to me. Should I think about picking up a different trans for some reason?
THANKS and apologies for the side track!
gp

quote Originally posted by fiero308: ...- have you ever used a 284 trans in a swap? I have a complete 3.4 tdc with 284 5 spd package but I keep seeing (as you are doing) people using other transmissions for this engine. Is there some problem that I am not seeing? Shifter/cables? Axles? doesn't fit for some reason? I would think that this trans would be ideal for the increased power output of the 3.4.....??? Am I missing something or is it simply and solely because that trans is so rare? .... gp

Because they're so rear is correct. If I could find one, I'd use it in a heart beat. Meanwhile, I plan on using my 5-speed Fiero Getrag.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: The computer needs to know vehicle speed in order to accurately control decel fuel cutoff and stall saver programs / idle speed management amoung other things. Without decel cutoff you will get those annoying pops out the exhaust and possibly even backfires and without the stall saver/idle management the engine could stall on a quick decel. I offer custom chip reprogramming like the one needed for the 3.4 DOHC swap into a Fiero for only $35 + shipping. I think that is a cheap price to pay for having a car that runs and drives correctly.

nice

Took her for the first test drive today! I must say I am releaved that the tranny shifts very nice because there is no telling how the previous owner treated it. Got the delco electromotive cruise control hooked up and will test it tomorrow. Still need to finish the exhaust out to the tips and work on the left rear brake caliper -- the parking brake adjusting mechanism is not working properly. A/C works nice: pulls down to 28 degrees F no problem just sitting. I used the plasic airbox off the donar lumina for the air cleaner but I am not sure I am going to keep it like this because of its proximity to the exhaust. I want to do further testing to see how well it holds up. I still have a stock Fiero air cleaner assy here that I might put on but if so the water seperator is definately going bye-bye because that is the most restrictive part of the system.

Anyway, got some pics:

With the center console installed and the access panel removed I can still get to the mem-cal. Bonus!

Once I get the exhaust tips on I will roll under the car and get some exhaust system pics.

Hey Darth,

Way to go! The swap looks great. It make me want to start mine right away.

Congratulations,
Roy

you know I actually had a worrysome moment when I put the hood back on because it looked like it was going to hit the dog bone on the engine side. However, after closing it I could still slip a piece of thin cardboard between the hood and the dog bone. what a relief!

VERY glad to see that ECM sitting between the seats but I thought someone else had tried it and it wouldn't fit? Or is that only in the earlier model years maybe? Is it a direct bolt in? (ie it will fit under the cover without some cutting etc?) Looks GREAT and I like the idea of it NOT being in the engine compartment. Beautiful workmanship all round.

quote Originally posted by fiero308: VERY glad to see that ECM sitting between the seats but I thought someone else had tried it and it wouldn't fit? Or is that only in the earlier model years maybe? Is it a direct bolt in? (ie it will fit under the cover without some cutting etc?) Looks GREAT and I like the idea of it NOT being in the engine compartment. Beautiful workmanship all round.

The ECM will NOT fit using the stock Fiero ECM plastic mounting piece. You can either cut up the stock fiero one or make your own brackets to mount the ECM. It fits under the console no problem.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

Wow that looks like a factory original install.
Very nice work.

------------------

85 GT 4-speed
3.4 pushrod, 390 Holley carb, Edlebrock intake, MSD 6A ignition. 04 Gran Prix exhaust tips, Ported manifolds and lots more to go.
Richey

removed the Lumina air box and reinstalled the factory Fiero one. I like it better but the water seperator still needs to be removed. I will get to that next week. I talked with YellowArtero and he said he might be going to the Auburn Fiero show which means I can take this car to that show and give it back to him there. I would like to put this car in the car show as well because the intake/valve covers look so nice (thanks RAREW66).

Darth: re: airbox; I picked up an airbox from a (about) 88 mustang 5 litre; it is a fenderwell type, or at least it can easily become one and it is nice and compact; looks like it will work well when I get to that point with my tdc swap. Made to breath for a 5 litre so that shouldn't be an issue. If you want I can email you a pic and/or dimensions. Might be worth looking at if you are fishing around a bit. I will try to get one up here anyway and will verify the model year; it might be an interesting item for anyone doing any swap.

Other question: are you thinking of doing anything regarding the stock radiator? Just leaving it? I ask because I took out the Z34's rad and it is easily 1 1/2 times the size of a stock fiero rad......and that is with very short hoses and so on; not the 'restrictions' that the fiero cooling system has (by comparison). I know a lot of guys seem to be getting away with the stocker; just wondered what the plan was.

quote Originally posted by fiero308: Darth: re: airbox; I picked up an airbox from a (about) 88 mustang 5 litre; it is a fenderwell type, or at least it can easily become one and it is nice and compact; looks like it will work well when I get to that point with my tdc swap. Made to breath for a 5 litre so that shouldn't be an issue. If you want I can email you a pic and/or dimensions. Might be worth looking at if you are fishing around a bit. I will try to get one up here anyway and will verify the model year; it might be an interesting item for anyone doing any swap. Other question: are you thinking of doing anything regarding the stock radiator? Just leaving it? I ask because I took out the Z34's rad and it is easily 1 1/2 times the size of a stock fiero rad......and that is with very short hoses and so on; not the 'restrictions' that the fiero cooling system has (by comparison). I know a lot of guys seem to be getting away with the stocker; just wondered what the plan was.

I could do with a fenderwell type of airbox to fit the Artero. The filter is right behind my head and when the tubo kicks in, all I hear is air being sucked in. It would be nice to have one down in the fenderwell just in front of the lower scoop ... cooler air and less noise!

------------------

Darth; i took some pix and dimensions of that airbox and sent them to you by email; I don't want to mess up your excellent thread here.
My nightly entertainment. I just don't know why there haven't been any flames yet......
I guess dohc types are either too mature or they have no spark ?!??!?!
(Keep up the excellent posts!)
gp

fiero308 -- I have used the stock Fiero 2.8 V6 radiator on the likes of my 3800 Turbo and it has absolutely no problem keeping up on a 95 degree day with the A/C cranked, so I don't see why the 3.4 DOHC would demand more. Thanks for the pics, I always like seeing what other people are finding on other cars that can be made to work on a Fiero.

YellowArtero -- The stock air filter assy that came on this car of yours already had a K&N filter in it so I was just going to use that setup, but I was planning to modify it of course. If you want me to do something else just let me know what you had in mind but I have an idea I want to try out. I will post pics within a few days.

Project: improve the airflow characteristics of the stock Fiero air filter canister.

Parts needed:
-air filter canister lower section
-approx 3 inch section of weldable steel (3/32"-1/8" thick x 1/2"-3/4" wide)
-metric nut (or cut the one off the existing air canister lower)

Tools needed:
-metal cutting tool
-welder
-die grinder with carbide bit

Here is a look at the stock air filter canister bottom section:

While the inlet for this setup is about 3 inches, you can clearly see that the structure that supports the mounting nut is a big restriction. If I would have to guess, by design this structure restricts flow by at least 40% due to area obstruction and turbulance.

The first order of business is to cut out this structure. Use the die grinder to clean up the sharp edges and remove any remaining metal that gets in the way of the airstream.

Once that is done cut out a piece of the weldable steel to fit across the inlet and place the mounting nut in the approximate location it was originally, and weld into place.

Again, use the die grinder to clean up any sharp edges or loose metal that obstructs flow. The end result should look like this:

As you can see, flow should be increased by roughly 33% over stock. There is still an obstruction there because of the mounting nut and support hardware, but it is no where near the obstruction that it was from the factory.

I also removed the stock water seperator/air silencer assy from the car and tied the air inlet tube to the side scoop using a piece of aluminized 3" pipe. I drilled some holes in the bottom of the 3" pipe to allow any water to drain out of it. Even with the engine running I doubt you could get much water to make it up to the filter unless you were spraying a hose directly into the side scoop. There are many ways to improve the air induction system of the Fiero, I feel that this is about the best way you can do it while still retaining the stock air filter canister assembly.

looks very nice, and i applaud your efforts!
and now i have a question

i look at this picture and i wonder if this would work on this swap. got any ideas?

what do you think? i like the idea of the jackchaft in that it supports the differential a little better and on the other side i can still use rodney's axle stabilizer bearings.

any comments?

------------------
Brandon Edmonds

1996 Taurus SHO (my baby)
1986 Ford EXP (goin bye-bye soon hopefully)
1986 Fiero (to be my street rocket)
1977 yamaha xs750-2D (in pieces right now, doesnt appear that it will be done for summer, unfortunately)

I don't see why it wouldn't work normally but the only concern I would have is the alternator mounting bracket that is on the 3.4 DOHC that uses the bolt holes in the same location as the jack shaft support. If one could find a way around that my guess is that it would work fine.

where else would you put the alternator?

------------------
Brandon Edmonds

1996 Taurus SHO (my baby)
1986 Ford EXP (goin bye-bye soon hopefully)
1986 Fiero (to be my street rocket)
1977 yamaha xs750-2D (in pieces right now, doesnt appear that it will be done for summer, unfortunately)

I think the 3.4 I got from a '95 Lumina has that jack-shaft support built into the motor-mount, I'd post a pic of it but, alas, I shun M'Soft and use a Mac, so PIP doesn't apply to me.

Stock, the Getrag 284 intermediate shaft bracket sorta bolts over on top of the rear motor mount bracket. The only thing that is related to the alternator is the rear bar mount (which most people take off anyway).

http://www.brian89gp.com/misc/mount1.jpg
That is a 4t60e rear motor mount bracket, the 5spd is similar enough for it not to matter. That black motor bracket wraps back on the engine block to behind the alternator. The intermediate shaft bracket mounts on top of that via those double bolts (threaded bolt sticking out the top of a bolt head)

Only the 91-93 got the Getrag. All the 4t60e's bolt to the motor mount via those 4 bolt holes (2 of which i welded over in that pic) in the rear motor mount bracket. The 5spd motor mount is shaped differently so that you can access the 2 intermediate shaft bracket bolts from the front side of the engine.

[This message has been edited by brian89gp (edited 06-22-2004).]

but such a part would be available for a 282 on a 3.4 tdc from gm, right?

I think you could get rid of that 'restriction' all together. You can use those 'snap' clamps like are found on old tool boxes, and old vacuume cleaners. You would just need to mount them on the outside of the can, then the metal clip would attach over the lip on the lid of the air can, then you snap it back down. You simply plug the hole in the top, or weld a bead right over it. You can the use the grinder to open up that inside to as large as the ID of the air filter.

I was just thinking... This sort of clip is used on a lot of car air boxes, I bet it could be made to work...

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 06-23-2004).]

Same casting for the sides of the block, so it would bolt up just like it would to a 2.8 or 3.1 (however the 282 does it). It will clear the alternator just fine, though if your CV boot ever dies the alternator is gonna get greased :P.

hey darth, how about those exhaust pics, and where did you get another front side manifold and if you ordered it how long did it take to get there? Also, whats the turn-around time on chip burning?

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: I think you could get rid of that 'restriction' all together. You can use those 'snap' clamps like are found on old tool boxes, and old vacuume cleaners. You would just need to mount them on the outside of the can, then the metal clip would attach over the lip on the lid of the air can, then you snap it back down. You simply plug the hole in the top, or weld a bead right over it. You can the use the grinder to open up that inside to as large as the ID of the air filter. I was just thinking... This sort of clip is used on a lot of car air boxes, I bet it could be made to work...

You know it is funny that you mention that. In fact the 88-92? Cavalier Z24's that had the 2.8L V6 and cowl induction hood had a similar air cleaner canister that used those clips to hold the top on. The reason why it needed those clips is because the top of the air cleaner assy had a hole in it to mate up to the hood when it closed, where it got it's cold air from.

quote Originally posted by fieromadman: hey darth, how about those exhaust pics, and where did you get another front side manifold and if you ordered it how long did it take to get there? Also, whats the turn-around time on chip burning?

Got some pics of the car today but none of the exhaust system quite yet, I will get those before I give the car back to YellowArtero. I got another front exhaust manifold from the junk yard you would not believe how many of these engines are out there because of owner neglect of the timing belt replacement interval. Turn around time on chip burning is about 2-4 business days depending on payment method and if I need to reburn your stock mem-cal. If I have to reprogram your stock mem-cal then obviously it will take longer because of the shipping time for you to send me your mem-cal.

Anyway, here are the pics I got today of the car.

Just to give you all a little update on this project, I have been test driving it around the neighborhood for a few days. There is a rear brake issue concerning the parking brake adjusting mechanism that is located in the caliper piston -- they are not working right. RAREW66 has a call into GM/Pontiac because he seems to think the parking brake recall campaign was not performed on this car so all of that might be getting fixed for free. We should know something by Wednesday evening. Today a problem came up with the front right caliper -- it locked up and got the rotor hot. This aggrivated a wheel bearing problem where the inner bearing race that is pressed into the rotor started spinning inside the rotor so the rotor is junk. (it was rusty and junk to begin with anyway) YellowArtero is going to do a front brake upgrade shortly after he gets the car back so I am going to the junk yard tomorrow to get another rotor. Aside from that the engine is running great, the A/C is very cold, and the exhaust note is nice.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 06-23-2004).]

keepin it on top...