2.5" mandrel bent tubing to the muffler, then 2.25" mandrel bent tubing out to the tips. Holley Terminator single-in, dual-out f-body muffler that fits in the stock location no problem.
Yellow Artero, hope you can make it to Auburn, I'd really like to see this car in the show! Mainly because mine won't be done in time (whimper) but that is ok. I really hope you like the way this car has come together! It sounds mean but not obnoxious, Darth and Rare w66 have both said you can't hardly hear the exhaust inside the car, unfortunately I have yet to ride in it...but I know you are feeling the same way... If it makes you feel better my car doesn't get started until yours leaves! Well good luck on selling your house and hope to see you and your lovely wife soon in Auburn!
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09:51 AM
Jun 27th, 2004
Flyguyeddy Member
Posts: 568 From: pekin, Il USA Registered: Dec 2003
It looks like we will all arrive in Auburn together. The car can be on display and everyone can see the work Ryan did (and your cleaning). We can't wait until we get to see everybody and just have fun. We need the rest and not think about overpriced houses!!!!
Yellow artero, guess that means I have two cars to get ready for show after all, I'll try to get a coat of wax on it before we leave. I think you should put it in work in progress class but Darth is pushing for engine swap class, guess it is your call since it is your car. See you soon...real estate isn't getting any cheaper so I wish you luck finding your dream home in toronto (further away huh? sniffle).
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04:15 PM
YellowArtero Member
Posts: 256 From: Belle River, Ontario Canada Registered: Mar 2004
I'll go for what Darth says. I've done that all along anyway. Yes, it is a shame we are an hour further away but it's a lot more exciting area for you to visit.
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06:21 PM
Jun 29th, 2004
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
I'll go for what Darth says. I've done that all along anyway. Yes, it is a shame we are an hour further away but it's a lot more exciting area for you to visit.
We need to come visit, hopefully you will be all settled in soon so maybe we could take a trip up later this summer/fall. Anyway, Fred and I are doing the final touch up on your engine and getting it ready for the show. The class is up to you but I think the Auburn show only has stock and modified class by year and body type (GT, notchback, etc).
Yellow Artero, hopefully I can get some wax on your car before we leave, unfortunately rarew66 has the valve cover again (He's never happy with his work I think but this time I could understand). But anyway I have to wait till that gets back so we can drive the car to the carwash around the corner. I think we are leaving for Auburn at about 10 am so we should get in before the Friday night cruise if all goes well. Sad to say but this thread is about done.
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05:32 PM
PFF
System Bot
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
just finished welding up that little air filter canister mod you did last night at work. thanks for the idea.
still need to find a piece of tubing to replace the water separator. were you able to use a strait piece? looks like it needs a slight bend. hoping i can find a used cai tube to cut a section from.
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10:04 AM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
Just wanted to provide a link to the webpage I made about this car on my website with some abbrviated buildup instructions in case this thread gets archived.
are all the sensors needed to convert from MAF to MAP already on the engine? just needs the early wiring harness and ecm? is there any powerloss/fuel efficiency loss going this route?
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10:56 AM
PFF
System Bot
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
are all the sensors needed to convert from MAF to MAP already on the engine? just needs the early wiring harness and ecm? is there any powerloss/fuel efficiency loss going this route?
Only one sensor needs to be changed over from the MAF to MAP systems. You will need to remove the MAF sensor and install a MAP sensor. The MAP sensor will require a 5v reference and sensor ground, which you can get off the TPS sensor, and then you can just use the sensor signal wire from the MAF as the MAP signal wire and of course repin at the computer. In fact, you can keep the current harness and just repin the connectors to work with the earlier computer. As far as performance loss, there will be NO performance loss going from MAF to speed density (MAP), however you may notice slightly less gas mileage since you will be losing sequential injection. The reason why you won't loose any performance going to batch fire/speed density from SFI is because most factory SFI systems don't even operate in SFI mode above 3000 rpm anyways, at least that is the word from the EFI guru's.
With SFI aside, the only advantage MAF based systems have over speed density is they can compensate for moderate changes to the engine itself, concerning upgrades such as cam changes, head porting, etc. The problem is there are limitations to what the MAF sensor can tell the computer to compensate for (limitations are in the chip), and the MAF sensor only has a direct bearing on how much fuel to deliver. Timing delivery is based on engine load and is basically fixed per instructions on the chip. While an increase in MAF reading will usually increase the fuel delivery, it will not adjust timing accordingly, so you will still need a custom chip or program to get the full benefit out of your modifications. The biggest problem we have today is there is virtually no custom tuning available for the 94-up MAF based 3.4 DOHC computers. I am sure one day that programming will become available, but who knows when or how long it will be until that day, if at all. Basically, from what I have heard, no one is interested in messing with these systems at this point.
cool - sounds easy so the 97 harness should have the right connectors to plug into the 93pcm? (after repinning of course)
I believe they all are the same but 1 or 2 might be different and not plug in. However, the good news is the electrical terminals are the same so you can just remove the wires/terminals from the 97 connectors in insert them into the 93 connectors. I don't know if all of the connectors have the wires in the correct spots, you will need to compare pinout diagrams between the two systems.
The 89-90 Turbo 3.1 Grand Prix computer can be reprogrammed to work with the 3.4 DOHC engine. However, it is only batch fire like the 91-93 DOHC ECM, but it does not have the capability to control a 4T60-E trans like the 91-93 ECM. The TGP computers are far more common than the 91-93 DOHC computers are though and do share the same underhood design.
while i am picking your brain.. IF i found someone to remove the auto from the maf setup - would the MAF be able to auto adjust for 5psi boost?
if not then it makes more sense to go with the earlier computer for ease of reprogramming for a boosted engine.. all the boost calculators are showing about 6 psi (intercooled) would put it up to 300crank hp.. so thats a possability for the future..
[This message has been edited by Kohburn (edited 10-14-2004).]
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01:04 PM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
while i am picking your brain.. IF i found someone to remove the auto from the maf setup - would the MAF be able to auto adjust for 5psi boost?
if not then it makes more sense to go with the earlier computer for ease of reprogramming for a boosted engine.. all the boost calculators are showing about 6 psi (intercooled) would put it up to 300crank hp.. so thats a possability for the future..
Very good question and I am glad you brought it up. The MAF sensor measures mass-air-flow, or amount of air going into the engine. Obviously if you put a turbo on the engine the MAF would measure more air flow. However, the limiting factor is in the programming. Stock programming is only calibrated for the limits of what a stock engine can flow + a little more as a failsafe measure. Limitations are set up in the chip to help diagnose a failing MAF sensor, thus there will be minimum and maximum values allowed by the computer for MAF readings. You can remove these limitations thru programming, but in stock form they will only let the readings go so far. In addition to this the timing table on MAF systems is not based directly on air flow, rather it is based on filtered load and RPM. Filtered load is calculated by readings taken by the MAF, RPM, engine displacement and sometimes TPS. This table also has a maximum value which gets reached on naturally asperated applications, so throwing boost on it will just use the same max table values.
The TGP computer uses a 2-bar map sensor so the ECM knows exactly how much boost pressure exists directly. In addition, the TGP computer has a timing table and fuel tables that span not only the naturally asperated range of operation, but also up to 15 lbs of boost pressure as well. (can be reprogrammed to work with a 3-bar sensor which allows up to 30psi tuneablity). In my opinion, these types of systems are far more effiecient operating with boost than MAF based systems.
so a TGP computer would be able to run a non boosted motor and be able to be tweaked for boost later?
Absolutely. Because n/a applications would only use up to 100kpa of the timing and fuel tables, which would be the same no matter if your engine was N/A or has boost. You will still need to use a 2-bar map sensor though. And when you did put boost on it the computer will sense the boost and then start using the above-100kpa values on the fuel and timing tables.
Absolutely. Because n/a applications would only use up to 100kpa of the timing and fuel tables, which would be the same no matter if your engine was N/A or has boost. You will still need to use a 2-bar map sensor though. And when you did put boost on it the computer will sense the boost and then start using the above-100kpa values on the fuel and timing tables.
sounds like i should use a TGP ecm from the get go on this swap.. and you can do the chip for this computer on the 3.4 dohc for me?
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02:18 PM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
man! this is getting anoying wheni call some place and they say they have one that matches - i ask.. so its from a TURBO right? and they all say well the ecm is the same for all of em but the prom isn't
WELL I NEED THE RIGHT PROM!!!!
arg i need a part number or something to protect me from these people
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04:37 PM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
man! this is getting anoying wheni call some place and they say they have one that matches - i ask.. so its from a TURBO right? and they all say well the ecm is the same for all of em but the prom isn't
WELL I NEED THE RIGHT PROM!!!!
arg i need a part number or something to protect me from these people
ECM part number was 1227727 and was used in most 88-92 W-body's with the 2.8 or 3.1 MFI. It was also used in the 90-91 L98 vette. As far as the PROM part number:16148531 BCC: AUAF. I do have this .bin on file so you don't need the stock chip for it, but you will need to get one that has a chip for a 3.1 MFI that way it has the correct knock sensor module on it.
emailed a PN request out.. i may end up going turbo from the get go..
a gp 3.1 turbocharger should be a nice fit right? that and a saab900 intercooler converted into a water-air intercooler.. and a bov.. oh yeah and a corvette fuel pump ..
sound about right to you?
[This message has been edited by Kohburn (edited 10-14-2004).]
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06:00 PM
Oct 15th, 2004
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
A TGP turbo is going to be a little small for a 3.4 DOHC engine, at least from a flow standpoint. I believe a 3.4 DOHC engine is going to want something similar in size that came on a Buick Grand National.
A TGP turbo is going to be a little small for a 3.4 DOHC engine, at least from a flow standpoint. I believe a 3.4 DOHC engine is going to want something similar in size that came on a Buick Grand National.
thats what i was thinking - but then i edited my post figured the turbo from a 3.8 would spool too slow..
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05:30 PM
Oct 17th, 2004
The_Ikon Member
Posts: 629 From: Mississippi, USA Registered: Mar 2004
found the ecm -- do you need the chip ahead of time to get a basic program onit to make it run then tweak it after it runs and gets some scantool #'s?
I will need the chip ahead of time to lay on the basic timing and fuel map to match your engine, besides everything else that needs to be done to make it compatible with a Fiero.
figured the turbo from a 3.8 would spool too slow..
