I have an 88 Isuzu 5-speed that I'm using with a 1993 3.4 DOHC V6. The clutch release arm interferes with the exhaust crossover; I need an inch more clearance. Modifying the crossover would not gain me enough clearance, so I have to modify the arm and slave cylinder bracket. However, it is my understanding that the clutch release arm is cast iron; not something I have the equipment to weld without durability issues. It looks like the getrag shift arm may work if I make a new slave cylinder bracket and use the getrag slave to get the right amount of travel. Will the getrag shift arm fit on an Isuzu tranny? What about the FWD getrag shift arm if I can't find a Fiero getrag soon enough?
I have until the 30th to get the clutch system working properly so I can make it to the Rally Through the Valley. Any other ideas how I could do this? Could the older stamped steel isuzu arm work if I reinforce it to fix the bending/cracking problems and modify it appropriately for clearance? I have not seen the stamped arm before.. it could be that it would just make things worse. Anyone have pics of it to post?
+'s for all with useful information!

-Steven

The stamped steel arm is roughly the same shape as the cast one, so not likely to help you out. Also one of the problems with the stamped arm is it uses plastic parts on it.

Sorry I can't be of much more help, I do know that the shaft on the transmission is 'keyed' for the arm and not sure if the other arms will fit the shaft (other than the steel stamped one, this I have swapped, but it was with another Izusu).

I know crazyone was using the 4 speed with his conversion, perhapes the 4 speed arm will work.

they are interchangable.
they have splines on them to keep you from putting them on "clocked" or "degreed" incorrectly.
i have filed one of the splines out of a cast arm once to rotate it over a bit for a swap.

I'll be cutting the plastic portion out of my stamped arm and welding a large acorn nut on the end to clear the crossover.. pretty easy task - i'll probably weld in some extra reinforcements while i'm at it..

The problem with the stamped arm isn't the plastic part. The problem is that the part of the bracket that encircles the splined shaft cracks - not only from the clutch load, but also from the tension applied by the clamp bolt.

They fail like this:

The red arrow points to another crack that hadn't failed totally yet.

I'd recommend against installing a stamped arm in your Fiero.

quote Originally posted by Whuffo: The problem with the stamped arm isn't the plastic part. The problem is that the part of the bracket that encircles the splined shaft cracks - not only from the clutch load, but also from the tension applied by the clamp bolt. They fail like this: The red arrow points to another crack that hadn't failed totally yet. I'd recommend against installing a stamped arm in your Fiero.

nothing soem welding can't prevent from happening - but thanks for the pic showing the weak points

Thanks for the help everyone! Sounds like my best bet would be to get the Getrag arm and slave and make a custom bracket to mount it. Easy as pie... if I can find one! I'm going to some salvage yards tomorrow but not sure I'll find it. Is the FWD getrag arm the same? Otherwise, does anyone in the Bay Area or central CA have a getrag arm and slave they'd sell me? We could meet up this weekend to make the transaction if thats possible. I'll post again after tomorrow to say whether or not I ended up finding one myself.
Otherwise I will modify a stamped steel arm to have the same dimensions as the Getrag arm, and use the Getrag slave for the shorter travel. Looks like I can just weld some reinforcements in where the stamped arm cracks and it should be okay even if just temporarily. Again, thanks all!

-Steven

you'll probably need to place an urgent order from the fiero store

quote Originally posted by Kohburn: you'll probably need to place an urgent order from the fiero store

Fiero Store doesn't carry a Getrag arm

[This message has been edited by Steven Snyder (edited 04-20-2005).]

I'd have to agree with Wuffo....stay away from the stamped arm if ya find one...

Nothings worse that being stranded at a light in rush hour 'cause the damn arm bent right over.

Trust me...I know !! : )

Besides...that's why the replacement is cast iron now..

Just my 2 cents...

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PK
I should join a club and beat you over the head with it!

quote Originally posted by Steven Snyder: Fiero Store doesn't carry a Getrag arm

rodney dickman does

Just got back from the salvage yard. I couldn't find a Fiero Getrag arm but I did find a FWD Getrag arm. It has the same splines and all, but it is even shorter than the Fiero Getrag arm. From my calculations (using 1 1/8" as required travel on the Isuzu, but maybe its less), I will need 9/16" travel at the slave. Obviously using the Isuzu slave is out of the question; it travels twice that! The Fiero Getrag slave will give me 3/4" travel. Closer, but I still need less than that. Is it possible to use the FWD Getrag slave? I'm not sure what the bore is on the FWD master cylinder.
What is the solution for using FWD Getrags in a Fiero? Use the Fiero shift arm?

-Steven

quote Originally posted by Kohburn: rodney dickman does

As far as I can tell, he doesnt either.. just shift arms and brackets.

I'm going to pick up a Getrag slave tomorrow if I can find a store that has one in stock.. I'll use it with the shorter FWD getrag arm and a custom slave cylinder bracket. Since the Getrag slave gives 3/4" travel with the stock master cylinder, but I need 1/2", is there any way to adjust the clutch pedal linkage so that I get less travel at the master cylinder, and thus the slave, with the same amount of pedal movement? I need to reduce it by 1/3 to get the proper travel at the slave. If I can do this I wont have to deal with a decreased pedal throw and significantly increased effort.

[This message has been edited by Steven Snyder (edited 04-21-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Steven Snyder: As far as I can tell, he doesnt either.. just shift arms and brackets.

its probably the same arm as the fiero - the slave may even be the same

from rodney's site - its 69$

quote Originally posted by Steven Snyder: Since the Getrag slave gives 3/4" travel with the stock master cylinder, but I need 1/2", is there any way to adjust the clutch pedal linkage so that I get less travel at the master cylinder, and thus the slave, with the same amount of pedal movement? I need to reduce it by 1/3 to get the proper travel at the slave.

Wow - that's the first time I've ever heard of someone wanting to DECREASE the throw!

Well, there's the "right" way - you use a larger diameter slave cylinder off of something else (you're fabbing a bracket anyhow right?).
Then there's the "wrong" way - let some air into the system to deliberately sabotage it!

quote Originally posted by watts: Wow - that's the first time I've ever heard of someone wanting to DECREASE the throw! Well, there's the "right" way - you use a larger diameter slave cylinder off of something else (you're fabbing a bracket anyhow right?). Then there's the "wrong" way - let some air into the system to deliberately sabotage it!

... Or you could stick a brick under your clutch pedal - problem solved! J/k...

Sounds like a different diameter slave is in order.

The closest I can get would be by using the FWD Getrag slave that is 1 1/4" bore. With 1.5" travel at the Fiero master cylinder (11/16" bore) that gives me .453" travel at the slave rather than the .476" that I need using the FWD getrag arm. To get the right amount of travel I would need to increase the master cylinder travel to 1.7". Is this amount of travel possible? Perhaps the master cylinder travel is already enough.. I do not have a confirmed measurement on hand; the 1.5" figure was taken from this thread: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/060893.html
I am going to take a look at a FWD Getrag slave tomorrow to see if it will even hook up to my hydraulic line. If not I will just get the Fiero Getrag slave (.80" travel) and limit it with a pedal or clutch arm stop until I find a better solution.

-Steven

[This message has been edited by Steven Snyder (edited 04-22-2005).]

Flip the 'banjo'? ... won't that shorten the throw before the master cyl.?
Norm

my plan was to cut the cast iron arm near the clamp part and then weld on a correct length arm to use a pull slave from a sandrail/VW application. the slave can be mounted so the body is attached to the clutch arm and the piston rod of the slave will be attached to a custom mount over the top of the tranny. i did not know that welding to the cast metal would be an issue so the above idea may have to be scrapped for another bright idea....

[This message has been edited by cptsnoopy (edited 04-22-2005).]

if you go pull styl then you can use the pull arm from another gm FWD car that used the isuzu.. thinking some cavaliers used a cable..

if I went pull type i'd be tempted to have a custom cable made up to eliminate any potential hydraulic issues

This original GM clutch lever one piece cast iron unit. The original lever was a stamped steel two piece item that would bend and break with time.
Price - $29.00
Item -PP/CLU-ARM

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quote Originally posted by fierodave: This original GM clutch lever one piece cast iron unit. The original lever was a stamped steel two piece item that would bend and break with time. Price - $29.00 Item -PP/CLU-ARM

he has that - its too long for this application and interferes with the exhaust crossover pipe - thats what this discussion is about

reason the stamped steel one came up is because it can be easily modified and welded - it can also easily be reinforced beyond the possability of the way it used to fail.. BTW i've seen them last over 130,000 miles without breaking

I looked at a FWD Getrag slave (1 1/4" bore) today. It is significantly different than the Fiero slave cylinders. There is no bleeder valve, and the hydraulic line attaches at the end using a pinned o-ring connection. No threads. The instructions indicate that the slave should be filled with fluid then the line attached. So how is it bled? As far as I can tell, in the FWD application the slave is the lowest point in the system. The line only slants up.. so the air bubbles go to the master where they can be bled out. It's not going to work without extensive work.
So I ended up just ordering a new AC Delco Fiero Getrag slave. I'm going to have at least 1/4" more travel than I need. I will need to reduce master travel to just under an inch. gt88norm, thanks for the idea for flipping the banjo. I recall hearing that it was the wrong way from the factory on some cars, thus limiting travel. It may just work. Any other ideas?
I plan on using the travel limit temporarily unless I can actually change the geometry so that pedal movement is not significantly harder. I will use the Fiero getrag arm once I find one.
-Steven

[This message has been edited by Steven Snyder (edited 04-23-2005).]

I made up a bracket and bled the clutch hydraulic system. The clutch arm (FWD Getrag) will hit the bellhousing stud right at the end of its travel right as the pedal hits the floor (as far as I can tell). It seems to work fine with whatever amount of travel it is getting with the Fiero Getrag slave. I guess I wont have to bother with a Fiero Getrag arm now

[This message has been edited by Steven Snyder (edited 04-23-2005).]

now i have to decide if i want to do that or just do a cable clutch

Somehow make a bell-crank assembly to change the throw ratio? ... could also be used to change a push over to a pull setup.

I heard a ticking earlier today when the clutch was pressed in. It went away when I let it out but I couldn't get it to come back. I doubt the throwout bearing is defective.. I think maybe it overextends sometimes if I pump it quickly and something is lightly interfering with something else. I'll post updates as I get more miles on the setup to see how it lasts.

My master cylinder died or something inside the tranny is in very bad shape. I found it harder to get into gear over the last 50 miles or so, and finally on my way home from school I couldn't at all. The clutch would not release. While getting back onto the freeway to go home after I discovered this, I heard a very loud tapping sound coming from the tranny side of the engine.. it went away when I pushed in the clutch pedal, even though there wasn't enough travel to release the clutch. The sound went away after a little while. After I got home I looked at the slave while someone pushed in the clutch pedal; it was only travelling half an inch. The fluid in the master cylinder is pitch black. Whew. The seals on the master cylinder were on their way out already, I had dark coloration in the fluid before.. so now they're just finally toast.
I found one store that stocked a new master cylinder and picked it up this evening. My dad and I are having a heck of a time trying to get the thing bled. Sometimes with the bleeder on the slave open, a push of the pedal takes no fluid from the reservoir. There is still a significant amount of air in the system. The clutch will travel only about the same amount as it did when the master cylinder failed, but when the pedal is pumped it looks like it might go further. Is there some secret to filling and bleeding the system with a brand new master cylinder?

bleeding the clutch is a whole new thread.

But to limit your pedal travel, get an adjustable clutch banjo from Rodney. then you can use the stock MC and Slave for a getrag. Or use the isuzu slave, and have a very short amount of pedal travel.

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SSFiero@Aol.com
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• At mile 20 I thought I was dead At mile 22 I wished I was dead At mile 24 I knew I was dead At mile 26.2 I realized I had become too tough to kill

I found a bunch of threads on clutch bleeding; I'll try these out.

quote Originally posted by Steven Snyder: I found a bunch of threads on clutch bleeding; I'll try these out.

I've got my fingers crossed for you Steven! See you saturday!

Looks like the new master cylinder I bought is probably defective.. only sometimes does pushing down the pedal actually reduce the level of fluid in the reservoir. Hmmmm. How does that make any sense if stuff is still coming out of the slave? If the master cylinder is pushing air instead of fluid from the reservoir, where would that air come from?

I got a brand new GM clutch master in exchange for the crappy Raybestos one I brought back. The new one looks just like my original one and even includes a new reservoir (the old one did not). The GM clutch master also has a rotatable bushing where it attaches to the clutch pedal linkage rather than just a hole that wont take long to wear out.
It was immediately much easier to bleed the system. I bench bled the master then hooked it up and gravity bled the system then compressed the slave cylinder piston (got a bit more air out) and closed the bleeder. Initially, the pedal was dead til about halfway. After slowly pumping it the feel got a lot better. Probably just working air out of the master and into the reservoir... I then gravity bled the system again to make sure all the air was out (got a few more bubbles). Still no disengagement. I checked to make sure there was no air.. and bubbles came out at the slave again right away! Eek! I repeated this 3 or 4 times just be sure. Yep, more air. The slave is also a brand new GM unit by the way. There are no visible leaks. Can air get in somewhere that fluid can't escape from? I'm somewhat suspicious of the flex line by the slave.. I imagine I have to replace the entire clutch line to replace it. It looks like its crimped on. Has anyone managed to just cut it off and flare the hard line for new fittings and a new braided hose if the hard line has no problems? Otherwise, where do I get a new line by Friday?

-Steven

this may sound crazy but i'd had it happen many many times on fieros.. the little umbrella seal in the slave letting air in.. stick some grease in the rod end of the slave inside the dust boot to block any air from getting in.. if that fixes it then welcome to reason i am contemplating a cable clutch conversion.

quote Originally posted by Kohburn: this may sound crazy but i'd had it happen many many times on fieros.. the little umbrella seal in the slave letting air in.. stick some grease in the rod end of the slave inside the dust boot to block any air from getting in.. if that fixes it then welcome to reason i am contemplating a cable clutch conversion.

Looks like this may just be it! I had the flex lines on the clutch line replaced and I still get zee air bubbles. I'll remove the slave and pack some grease in there when I get back to it tomorrow. Should Mobil 1 synthetic grease be okay?

-Steven

I usually just slapped from axel grease in there

It solved 80% of the clutch problems i ran into on my or friends fieros

New line, new master, new slave... new air. Everything bleeds perfect but then I instantly get air coming out of the slave when I crack open the bleeder after I've pushed in and released the pedal even one time with it all closed up. I have tried Archie's method and gravity bleeding. The problem is not that I don't get all the air out, its that new air comes in after I get all the air out.
I tried packing some grease in the rod end of the slave to prevent air from getting in but that didn't help. Pretty weird... so I took apart the slave to inspect the bore. It looks fine except for some discoloration right around where the piston sits with the pedal at rest. It looks like maybe the slave was misaligned and the piston was being forced against one side of the bore. I slotted by bracket holes so I could properly adjust it but I still get air. I'm going to try to exchange the slave for a new one tomorrow but I don't think its going to be stocked; they had to order it last time and it took a day to get there. Looks like there will be no rally for me .

Aww bummer! I hope you get lucky tomarrow! I'd hate for you to miss the Rally. You can always come in another car, it'd suck for you to be so close and not make it.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: Aww bummer! I hope you get lucky tomarrow! I'd hate for you to miss the Rally. You can always come in another car, it'd suck for you to be so close and not make it.

I'll show up with my girlfriend's Civic Si if the Fiero can't make it. Who knows how much driving she'll let me do though! Hehe.. or I could always take the Miata I guess.

-Steven