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Carb Guys - Ported or Manifold Vacuum by RTNmsds
Started on: 04-25-2005 02:13 PM
Replies: 10
Last post by: STRATOHACKER on 04-26-2005 09:04 PM
RTNmsds
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Report this Post04-25-2005 02:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RTNmsdsClick Here to visit RTNmsds's HomePageSend a Private Message to RTNmsdsDirect Link to This Post
350 SBC w/ 650 Edelbrock carb & intake. Would you use ported or maifold vacuum on the distributor advance? I see the arguments for both, but am thinking that manifold vacuum may be more streetable. Comments / suggestions?
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FIERO1985
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Report this Post04-25-2005 03:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FIERO1985Send a Private Message to FIERO1985Direct Link to This Post
Ported manifold is at idle ported is above idle you do not want the advance to come in at idle.


Dan

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355 SBC
.220 Dome TRW Forged Pistons
215cc Dart Iron Eagle Heads 2.05/1.60 Valves
Victor Jr Intake
Barry Grant Mighty Demon 650cfm
Solid 306 Duration 558 Lift Cam
All Comp Valvetrain
All MSD Igntion
All transfered through a 4 speed Manual Trans
Estimated BHP 445 hp
1/4 mile SOON as spec clutch broke in

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FIERO1985
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Report this Post04-25-2005 03:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FIERO1985Send a Private Message to FIERO1985Direct Link to This Post

FIERO1985

801 posts
Member since Nov 2000
to clarify use ported. I meant to start that sentence with a comma

------------------
355 SBC
.220 Dome TRW Forged Pistons
215cc Dart Iron Eagle Heads 2.05/1.60 Valves
Victor Jr Intake
Barry Grant Mighty Demon 650cfm
Solid 306 Duration 558 Lift Cam
All Comp Valvetrain
All MSD Igntion
All transfered through a 4 speed Manual Trans
Estimated BHP 445 hp
1/4 mile SOON as spec clutch broke in

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Skybax
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Report this Post04-25-2005 03:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SkybaxSend a Private Message to SkybaxDirect Link to This Post
- ported vacuum = none at idle, increases as you open throttle, on @ cruise, zero @ WOT

- manifold vacuum = full at idle, decreases as you open throttle, on @ cruise, zero @ WOT

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tesmith66
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Report this Post04-25-2005 03:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tesmith66Send a Private Message to tesmith66Direct Link to This Post
In addition, ported vacuum ports are any ABOVE the throttle blades and manifold vacuum ports are any BELOW the throttle blades.

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1986 SE 350 V8

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3084me
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Report this Post04-25-2005 04:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 3084meSend a Private Message to 3084meDirect Link to This Post
Everyone has their own preference depending on engine. Just for comparison, here's mine if you are "trying different methods". I'm more of a Big Block person but here's what we used to do at our shop on our track and high perf street cars.

Always verify the initial throttle plate adjustment on your carb. I can't tell you how many I see where the throttle plates are open past the Ported Vacuum port (to increase idle - incorrectly). The owner now re-assures himself that "Ported Sucks" because of this and they have no idea that the throttle plates are open past the ported vac port and the carb is now our of the idle circuit. Incorrect main jetting with this scenario is common as well. There I see lots of Holleys with a bypassed idle circuit, lower vacuum and bigger jets to keep it idling (roughly I'll admit). Once your carb's throttle plates and base jetting is set, you can begin.

Quite a few older SBC engines can and do run quite well with Manifold vacuum source. I prefer ported but a few friends do not. I think many people like to "over do it on initial timing" and then use manifold vacuum. They then see that it's not correct., scrap the whole idea, use ported and then do the "Time it by ear method". - Never really understood that one....


Keep in mind that depending on application, Advance curve etc, that ported vacuum may cause pinging and higer running temps when you are doing the initial setup on the engine / carb.


Ported vacuum sometimes may be (and often is) needed for many EGR equipped engines, to increase combustion chamber temps to burn off more unburned hydrocarbons. This differs slightly in Non-EGR applications.,

A good tip that I've found find to be very helpful (SBC and BBC's at least) is: Initially, Any engine that has its vacuum advance sourced from ported when it calls for Manifold Vacuum, and runs better with it, may/ usually does have a timing problem ( THE MECHANICAL ADVANCE CURVE MAY NOT BE CORRECT).

On a SBC, you could try setting and baseline at between 8 to 10 initial, then set an adjustable Vac Advance for an additional 8 to 10 degrees @ manifold vacuum. Depending on Engne, this will usually result in a "runable" baseline to begin. (and many times can stay this way (for the street).

Mechanical curve would be appx 22 degrees, starting 100 - 200 rpm over your "out of
gear" or in Park idle speed",

Depending on compression ratio, cam, stall speed, etc. This would give 30/32 total
timing which should be more than enough for a SBC. You can then fine tune if needed (if you get Ping etc).

I find very, very few engines, street to mild strip, that don't like
properly applied ported vacuum advance. I see quite a few engines with the vac advance simply "torn out" and the owner is convinced that it's not needed on a street driven car. (Never really got the idea of this either.)

[This message has been edited by 3084me (edited 04-25-2005).]

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RTNmsds
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Report this Post04-25-2005 04:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RTNmsdsClick Here to visit RTNmsds's HomePageSend a Private Message to RTNmsdsDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 3084me:

Everyone has their own preference depending on engine.....

This is the type of discussion I was looking for - not just a "use ported" or "use manifold" response - not dis-ing anbody on this at all, but both will work & both have +'s and -'s to consider. I've been running ported, but right now I'm peaking over on the manifold side of the fence (doing some experiments now). What I'm noticing is that I can force the timing up a bit higher using manifold vacuum and be able to run low end gas without ping on acceleration. The motor doesn't bog on starting with the advance like this (because it doesn't step up till after it fires), and with the timing advanced at idle the cars seems to run cooler too. Figure I probably have lost a bit of WOT power, but to be honest I'm not sure I can feel it as there is power to burn here. (I'm not racing.) The car setup this way appears to be a bit more "streetable", but all this has to be confirmed / reproduced. Figure it's worth talking about anyway

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MaxCubes
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Report this Post04-25-2005 05:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MaxCubesSend a Private Message to MaxCubesDirect Link to This Post
All non computer controlled factory vehicles use ported vacuum advance. I would go that route.
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Skybax
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Report this Post04-25-2005 05:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SkybaxSend a Private Message to SkybaxDirect Link to This Post
Most Oldsmobile, Buick, and Pontiac non-computer controlled V8 engines from 1965 to 1982 used manifold vaccum to the ignition advance from the factory.

If you want a smooth idle, better driveability, and better gas mileage, use manifold.

If you want a more hotrod sound and feel at idle, with advance when you hit the gas, use ported.

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RTNmsds
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Report this Post04-25-2005 10:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RTNmsdsClick Here to visit RTNmsds's HomePageSend a Private Message to RTNmsdsDirect Link to This Post
Have done some more research. Perhaps my observations are not totally wrong....

http://ncfto.org/Articles/manvport.htm

and check out this guy's chart....

http://www.gofastforless.com/ignition/vacuum_chart.jpg

In his testing, he found that ported vacuum and manifold vacuum were essentially identical EXCEPT at idle when the ported vacuum is totally shut off. He has a pretty good discussion posted at: http://www.gofastforless.com/ignition/advance.htm

Chevy confirms this man's observations (only difference is at idle), but does not go so far as to recommend using the manifold vacuum except "in certain applications with low manifold vacuum and a big camshaft, there might be an advantage to experimenting with this option." (reference http://chevyhiperformance.com/howto/46178/ )

Bottom line... it appears that if emission controls at idle is the goal, then ported is the correct choice. If you want to pull up the advance at idle to help with temps and smooth idle, then manifold vacuum just might be the way to go.

Looks like I'm sticking with manifold vacuum option for now.

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STRATOHACKER
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Report this Post04-26-2005 09:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for STRATOHACKERSend a Private Message to STRATOHACKERDirect Link to This Post
You are on the money with the points you have made regarding the differences.
Here is what I have found from personal experience: my car can be set up to run great either way.
I have tried both and have ended up staying with ported vacuum on mine because running it on manifold vacuum happened to destroy 2 vacuum advance canisters in short order. I have not found this to be the norm for most people however, just my experience.
Here is my theory of when to use each one:

If you are running a big cam and the car idles like a harley, running manifold vacuum will help to smooth out the idle by bringing in some advance. The advance goes away under load and is not an issue at WOT so having it at idle is not an issue and can make a high strung engine easier to live with on the street.

If your running a more mildly tuned engine you will probably get better mileage and run smoother at light throttle openings on the freeway with ported advance.

These have been my observations. Feel free to agree or disagree.... It makes no difference to me LOL

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85 GT 4-speed
3.4 pushrod, 390 Holley carb, Edlebrock intake, MSD 6A ignition. 04 Gran Prix exhaust tips, Ported manifolds and lots more to go.
Richey

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