Merry Christmas to you all! Well it's bound to happen. Surely someone other than me is already thinking about swapping the new front wheel drive 5.3 L V-8 and transaxle from the Grand Prix into a Fiero. I think I saw that it is a stock 290 hp, but does anyone know any particulars about the transaxle GM is using? Is there a manual transaxle for it? What's the origin of the 5.3L engine?

------------------

Tom Corey
Melbourne, FL
87 Green T-Top GT 5Spd SBC ZZ3 V8

quote Originally posted by Tom Corey: Merry Christmas to you all! Well it's bound to happen. Surely someone other than me is already thinking about swapping the new front wheel drive 5.3 L V-8 and transaxle from the Grand Prix into a Fiero. I think I saw that it is a stock 290 hp, but does anyone know any particulars about the transaxle GM is using? Is there a manual transaxle for it? What's the origin of the 5.3L engine?

SHHHH--I am looking into it already but havent found a lot on it yet. There isnt a whole lot of information on it that I can find. Only thing I know is it is coming out in 05 GP, will be classifed as a LS-4 with 290 HP and hooked to a beefed up 4T65E. I am wondering wether they will change the trans side or the engine side for them to work together. I am hopeing they change the trans side to make it able to hook the trans to a LS1, would be nice. But then again if they change the engine side, then it would hook up to the 5 speed and would be a nice swap. Either way its going to be a nice swap and more than likely become very popular.

You should hope that they change the block to accomodate the FWD transmission...

A 5.3 block can be sleeved out to LS1 size or significantly larger...

Tom Corey,
Thanks for initiating this thread; maybe it'll elicite some information. Along with MstangsBware, I've also been searching the web, but - nothing.

Will,
Since I already have an ls1, I hope the other way around; that the trans will be modified to match the engine. Be interesting to find out. Of course, that's also supposing that the ls4 bolt pattern matches the ls1.

Orville

[This message has been edited by Orville (edited 12-25-2004).]

Well, you will have to understand what DOD is to even consider this as a swap.

Read this article.. http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/041020.htm

DOD, controls oil flow in the gallies. Punching this to 5.7 is not an option most likely, because not even the 5.3 today can be punched to 5.7.

Then there is the computer controls. GM is moving to CAN (controller area network). VPW (variable pluse width) is what OBDII is made up of today mostly. My 2004 Grand Prix computer in my Fiero today is CAN on the ABS and traction control circuits. However, the interface is still VPW. CAN is not hackable today. HP Tuners is working on it, but cannot support the 2005 Corvette today because it is all CAN. V6 stuff like the Grand Prix is going to be low on the list to hack for HP Tuners because the V6 forum is not even close to the V8 activity in needing products and support. DHP will start working on CAN when the GXP V8 comes out, but has no need at this time since all the 96-04 stuff is VPW.

So, even if you plan to buy a complete wrecked GXP car, you will be transfering the complete interior supporting wiring and 4 computers to get the engine to run. Then if they hook the DOD to the VSS on the ETC, you have to run the automatic transmission because the manuals do not have the sensors to support the engine controls.

The LS1 on the 4T65eHD is going to be the top end install for 2005. The engine and transmission can be controlled and hacked with todays OBDII software and hardware.

Loyde

Found this article... it is alot better with pics of the lifters... http://www.popularhotrodding.com/features/0405phr_gmdod/

[This message has been edited by FastFieros (edited 12-25-2004).]

Lots of great info, Loyde. Would you by any chance be able to find out about the bolt patterns?
For me, this is no longer just idle curiosity; I just blew my econo trans (2nd gear) doing the 0 - 60
in 4 sec's thing. I knew better too, but it was going to happen sometime anyway.

So, I want to replace the 4sp with a beefed-up 4t65e rather than with another marginal (for me, that is)
standard transaxle.

Orville

quote Originally posted by Orville: Lots of great info, Loyde. Would you by any chance be able to find out about the bolt patterns? For me, this is no longer just idle curiosity; I just blew my econo trans (2nd gear) doing the 0 - 60 in 4 sec's thing. I knew better too, but it was going to happen sometime anyway. So, I want to replace the 4sp with a beefed-up 4t65e rather than with another marginal (for me, that is) standard transaxle. Orville

I tried to pay someone at GMInsideNews to get me a shot of the back of the block on the LS4 already. It went unanswered. My posting was indicated that NO known rear shots have been release from GM.

I have however gotten some photos of the GXP from SEMA. One shot was good enough for me to tell that I am 90% sure the 4T65eHD now has the Gen III/IV transmission block pattern. Also if you notice the 5.3 DOD is releasing in 2005 in the truck product line. I dont see GM using the "metric" bolt pattern on the Longitudal setups since this transverse 5.3 is only slated for the GXP Grand Prix for 2005 ( that I have read todate). That little flywheel created by the "metric" bolt pattern cause GM to have to develope a special oil pan just for the Impala SS project in 99/00... GM will want the starter on the block, and this means BIG GEN III/IV pattern to get the flywheel out far enough for the starter. Also with the 290HP and 320 torque, GM will need a nice converter to control that in the 65eHD package. Big converter also.

So, this makes a LS1 automatic TAP shift capable transmission? No... The transmission will require the E04 PCM and that is setup to run DOD engine. No taking the new GEN IV transmission from the 5.3 and using it on the LS1/LS6

My 3800SC Series III is the P04+, so I can tell you, it is quite advanced internally, and the program is 1 meg vs the older 512K stuff.

Loyde

The transverse 5.3's are going to be aluminum block. They can be punched out to 4.125+, just like the LS1's...

As for the engine... just use an older LS1 PCM to control it. AIUI, the DOD is inactive with no input.
Does the new 4T65E-HD have extra inputs or something? Just run it from an LS1/A4 PCM. My dad and I are adapting a 4L80E to an LT1 PCM. All that's necessary is to invert one of the shift solenoid signals...

Lots of good information coming out about the topic. Half of it I dont understand but thats not saying to much. Will have to have a one on one talk with someone to get a better understanding of it all.

quote Originally posted by Will: The transverse 5.3's are going to be aluminum block. They can be punched out to 4.125+, just like the LS1's... As for the engine... just use an older LS1 PCM to control it. AIUI, the DOD is inactive with no input. Does the new 4T65E-HD have extra inputs or something? Just run it from an LS1/A4 PCM. My dad and I are adapting a 4L80E to an LT1 PCM. All that's necessary is to invert one of the shift solenoid signals...

Will, according to what I have read per LS1/LS6 performance, the 5.3 available today cannot be BORED (punched out) to a 5.7. The LS2 can only be bored to 4.020 and this is per Scoggin Dickey on LS1Tech.com, the LS1 up to 98 is honed to .004, and the 99-04 LS1 bored to 4.010 . Now you can RESLEEVE the engines to bigger bores, but at an extreme cost of about $2500 for 8 holes.

As for your thought to just kill the signal to the DOD, what if the thing runs in 8 cylinders only with the DOD PCM online and it runs in 4 cylinders when the PCM is offline? Then you have an expensive 4 cylinder swap...

Loyde

The first time I mentioned displacement increase in this thread, I said "sleeved". Sorry for @$$uming people read...
Yes, sleeving is expensive, but so is an LS1 swap...

As for DOD... think of it this way... what if the DOD solenoid fails? What happens to the engine? The obvious answer is one driven by customer satisfaction: the engine defaults to 8 cylinder operation. No one who has paid for an 8 cylinder car/SUV will be happy that it defaults to 4 cylinder operation after a minor system glitch.
Another way of looking at it is this: what operating mode is the engine likely to be in more often? That is the default mode.
However, YOU'RE the apparent expert on GEN IV's, you tell me what happens...

Let's keep this informative, people.

Something to consider is that GM considers the new DoD engines to be a Gen IV. There are many changes to the block to accomodate DOD. The big question then is, how will those changes affect the swap as compared to an LS1, LS2, or LS6? If it's still a drop in swap between an LS4 and LS1, no problem, but there are a lot of unknowns right now. I've also heard that GM is moving to modular PCMs that are integrated into the engine, so in effect you just supply 12v, fuel, and water and you're good to go. But again, that's not been verified.

I think Will is right that it probably defaults to 8 cylinder operation, BUT, we don't know. That would make the most sense, and since this IS GM, you never know what the end result will be.

Let's keep the flow of information going. This swap will be done eventually. It's just a matter of who, when, and how hard will it be.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Let's keep this informative, people. Let's keep the flow of information going. This swap will be done eventually. It's just a matter of who, when, and how hard will it be.

I agree with Formula88 on keeping this thread informative and not turning it into a flame. So far there has been more information put out in this thread then I have been able to find one the net. All of it is good information to know and will help in finding out if this can be a future swap into the Fiero. Hopefully with the knowledge of people on the Forum and the help of others it can become a common as the L67 swap and benifit the Fiero world.

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: I agree with Formula88 on keeping this thread informative and not turning it into a flame. So far there has been more information put out in this thread then I have been able to find one the net. All of it is good information to know and will help in finding out if this can be a future swap into the Fiero. Hopefully with the knowledge of people on the Forum and the help of others it can become a common as the L67 swap and benifit the Fiero world.

Likewise, and thanks to all for their efforts in investigating the subject and letting us know.

Orville

One thing I'm hoping to see when they go in the FWD "performance" mode with the 5.3 in the Pontiac GP is a next generation 4T65 series HD transaxle that maybe includes limited slip. If anyone comes across any info, please post it on the forum. And thanks again to Lloyde for the links and all the info.

Heres GM press release on the 05 lineup......... http://media.gm.com/division/2005_prodinfo/corporate/05_Powertrain%20Overview.htm

Note that 2005 is 50 years of Chevy V8 power. Can you imagine what it was like in 1955 getting that 55 2 door with a big 283 ci V8 engine or was it a 265?... Some of you can I was born in 61, but had my first car at 10 which was a 64 Impala with the 327... I lived on a farm and drove a tractor in the cotton fields. Its just what you did back then... Now we sit at computers and make 550HP out of 346 ci engines turning an easy 7000RPM... I really hope GM has some special events and displays for the V8's engines in 05.

Here is a picture of the 5.3 in the GXP... What you guys think? Big bell housing or small?

Here is the engine .... Note the flywheel just peeking out the rear by the oil pan. I have the LS1 with the 65e development flywheel on my engine today, and with the same angle, I cannot see the flywheel in this same way. It indicates to me, this is a larger flywheel to get the teeth out to the starter on block area.

DOD and the 4T65eHD is a big guessing game right now. I called the dealer today and they didn't even know what DOD was. I called the part department and they do not have books or software with the 05 new stuff. I have eSI to the latest version and it has some 05 info on even the Grand Prix GXP, but no engine pics...

And here is my engine....

Looks alot the same... Just some updates I have to add to my setup also..

Loyde

[This message has been edited by FastFieros (edited 12-26-2004).]

One bump for the people back from the holidays...

Loyde

Wow! I'm impressed!

Regarding the TAP shift 4T65E transaxle that appears to have the correct bolt pattern, what hardware makes that tranny different from the earlier OBDII 4T65E? For that matter, what hardware makes either of them different from the OBDI?
Might it be backward compatible to OBDII (or even OBDI) with the change of a valve body, or a few solenoids? Seems feasable to my admittedly uneducated self, since the tranny doesn't contain any "smarts". Does it? People have been swapping valve bodies for years, in 4L60s and Turbo 350s.
It looks like you have a good handle on TAP shift in regard to swapping in complete drivelines. Obviously, I'm thinking of the instances where folks might want to retrofit this tranny to older technology.

Thanks for reading.

AFAIK, tapshift is purely a PCM thing (well, PCM and steering wheel switches), and that the transmission wasn't any different

quote Originally posted by Will: AFAIK, tapshift is purely a PCM thing (well, PCM and steering wheel switches), and that the transmission wasn't any different

This is completely incorrect... The casing is internally different.. Big Jeff at Intense racing rebuilds the 04 TAP shift transmissions along with the 03 and belows. They are so different, you cannot just buy the parts and make one to the other. I have already approached this method when I was looking for a TAP shift 04 transmission and I had 3 99-02 65eHD transmissions sitting here. You will not be able to take a TAP shift 05 LS4 transmission and revert it to common shift for OBDII if they designed and did the same things as the 04 FR9 Comp G TAP shift transmission.

The PCM does control the PCS, and shift solenoids, but it must know ETC, VSS to complish this function.

The steering wheel switches setup Ohm value to the PCM for a signal. It does equal voltage, but the theshold is somewhat broad.

Loyde

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: ...Big Jeff at Intense racing rebuilds the 04 TAP shift transmissions along with the 03 and belows. They are so different, you cannot just buy the parts and make one to the other...

Ahh well. Ya' try.

Thanks Loyde.

Article from www.media.gm.com:

New Gen IV 5300 Turns V-8 Performance On Its Side

PONTIAC - General Motors' new Gen IV 5300 5.3L V-8 (LS4) engine debuts in the 2005 Pontiac Grand Prix GXP, making it the first V-8 offered in a Grand Prix since 1987. It also marks the first time since the small-block was introduced 50 years ago that it has been offered in a front-wheel-drive car.

Engineered specifically for front-drive layouts, the 5300 V-8 is estimated to produce 290 horsepower and 325 lb.-ft. of torque. It incorporates Displacement on Demand technology (DOD), which helps the vehicle realize fuel economy gains of up to 12 percent per the EPA federal fuel economy test procedures. It does this by seamlessly alternating between eight- and four-cylinder operation.

When matched with the inherent smoothness and torque of the V-8 configuration, the 5300 V-8 delivers strong performance - 90 percent of torque is available between 1500 rpm and 5200 rpm - and surprising economy. It's a combination most competitors' V-6 offerings can't match.

"Over 50 years, the small-block V-8 has proven itself more adaptable than anyone could have imagined," said Dave Muscaro, assistant chief engineer of small-block V-8 for passenger cars. "The small-block family has a tradition dating back to 1955 in which an excellent design makes possible the additions of new technology. The Displacement on Demand-capable 5300 V-8 is a fine example of that tradition."

Family ties

The all-aluminum 5300 V-8 is the third displacement offering of the Gen IV small-block, which was introduced in the 2005 Chevrolet SSR, GTO and Corvette, as well as several 2005 GM SUVs. The 5300 V-8 shares a common architecture with these other versions, including a deep-skirt block, six-bolt cross-bolted main bearing caps, and structural oil pan, but is modified to accommodate the "east-west" mounting position of the Grand Prix's front-wheel-drive chassis.

To fit the "sideways" positioning in the Grand Prix, several changes were made to shorten the engine's overall length. The crankshaft was shortened by 13 mm - 3 mm at the rear and 10 mm at the front - and the entire accessory drive system was designed to reduce space. The water pump and all other accessories, including the power steering pump, are driven on a single-belt drive system - the longest drive system in a GM vehicle.

Engineers devised an elongated water pump manifold, which features a remote-mounted pump that feeds the stock Gen IV coolant passages via the unique manifold. The design allowed the drive system to be mounted closer to the engine block. Because of the 5300 V-8's relatively low inertia, which can be up to 50 percent less at the crankshaft damper than a 6.0L V-8, a hydraulic belt tensioner was used instead of a conventional rotary tensioner.

Unique position

The sideways position of the 5300 V-8 required revisions to the lubrication system. Engineers tested 5300 V-8 equipped test vehicles on racetracks, subjecting them to high-load turns that guided the development of special oil pan baffles that ensure lubrication during cornering. In addition, because Gen IV engines don't have a block-mounted oil filter - it's located on the oil pan - the 5300 V-8's filter offers easy access.

The GM Oil Life System oil-change indicator system is standard, which can reduce the frequency of oil changes during the engine's operating life. With the system, the engine control module (ECM) records cumulative data on a number of variables, including engine rpm, temperature, load or rpm variance and length of operation at any given load and temperature. Using this information, the system calculates oil degradation and recommends an oil change when the oil is near the end of its useful life - in other words, when an oil change is actually needed.

Other 5300 V-8 features include:

* Lightweight, three-piece friction-welded composite intake manifold
* Aluminum high-flow cylinder heads similar to 6.0L V-8 (LS2)
* Aluminum engine block with cross-bolted main bearing caps
* Full-floating pistons
* Electronic throttle control integrated with a new engine controller
* 10.0:1 compression ratio for fuel-efficient performance
* Unique camshaft designed for DOD technology
* GM Oil Life System to minimize required oil changes

Because of the front-drive layout, the 5300 V-8's exhaust manifold routing includes two manifolds joined by a single crossover pipe, which connect to a single underbody catalytic converter. The crossover pipe allows the use of a single oxygen sensor, unlike north/south V-8 applications that have two oxygen sensors.

Displacement on Demand technology

GM's Displacement on Demand technology debuted in 2005 GM extended midsize SUVs equipped with the Vortec 5.3L V-8 (LH6) engine. With the 5300 V-8 (LS4), DOD technology enables fuel economy gains of up to 12 percent in certain driving conditions by reducing the number of cylinders engaged in the combustion process. A sophisticated, next-generation engine controller determines when to deactivate cylinders, allowing the engine to maintain vehicle speed in lighter-load conditions such as highway cruising. When the cylinders are deactivated, the engine effectively operates as a V-4, with alternate cylinders on each cylinder bank disabled. The engine returns to V-8 mode the instant the controller determines the vehicle speed or load requires additional power. The process is seamless and virtually imperceptible.

"There's nothing like the satisfying feel of a V-8 engine and the 5300 V-8 provides a level of performance rarely available in competitors' vehicles," said Muscaro. "But when all eight cylinders aren't required to maintain performance, DOD technology effectively turns the engine into a more efficient V-4."

And still nothing specifically stating what bellhousing it has.

Still, the mods for FWD placement would seem to make this a great choice, especially the filter in the oil pan, single serpentine belt, and remote water pump. The shortened crank is another bonus, too. I'd guess most everything other than the crank can be retrofitted to other Gen IV engines (LS2, etc.). Not sure if they'd work on Gen III LS1 engines, though.

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: The casing is internally different.. Big Jeff at Intense racing rebuilds the 04 TAP shift transmissions along with the 03 and belows. They are so different, you cannot just buy the parts and make one to the other. I have already approached this method when I was looking for a TAP shift 04 transmission and I had 3 99-02 65eHD transmissions sitting here. You will not be able to take a TAP shift 05 LS4 transmission and revert it to common shift for OBDII if they designed and did the same things as the 04 FR9 Comp G TAP shift transmission.

What did they change?

quote Originally posted by Will: What did they change?

My research in the service manual shows 2 major changes.. IMS (Internal Mode Selector) which was only in some 2003 65eHD's.

Then there is a valve located in the tailshaft housing that actuates the planetary gears in the manual mode vs the automatic mode.

The 04 TAP shift is not suppose to be placed in D2 or D1 since the valve actuation is rerouted via pressure solenoids. I was very confused when I got my FR9 TAP shift transmission that there was no external netural safety switch and I could move the selector by hand to the PRND321 with no problems. I started looking at the parts involved and found the IMS. I called the dealer to see what the cost of all the parts was and it totaled $1500 or more just from the few parts I could get numbers on. So I called Intense and Jeff explained that there are differences in the caseing. I had a chance to buy an FR9 with a busted case and wanted to pull the parts and put them in a 99-03 caseing, but Jeff said it would not work. Service manual does confirm that there are parts in the tailshaft and attach somehow in there that most likely the older casings will not have.

Loyde

Good ole GM... always making things more complicated than they have to be...

Is there a counter balance shaft in this motor? When my old Saab V4 sheared the balance shaft gear, the vibration put a Harley to shame! The mirrors and gauges became a blur, and rendered the car un-drivable.

quote Originally posted by gt88norm: Is there a counter balance shaft in this motor? When my old Saab V4 sheared the balance shaft gear, the vibration put a Harley to shame! The mirrors and gauges became a blur, and rendered the car un-drivable.

No counter shafts...............

Loyde

I don't know about any of you guys, but I like to shift (specially at RFTH), so in my prayers every night I'm asking for the Pontiac performance engineers to start thinking 5 or 6-speed manual transaxle for the 5.3. That would make for some real fun in N. Georgia and North Carolina!!!

Well, for those that are taking the time to read this thread, I have another discovery to share with you....

The starter has been brothering me some time because the oil pan clearly is not the same as the concept casted oil pans I have from the tranverse project. I have now figured it out.

The oil pan does not have the starter in it. The transmission bell housing does. The picture I posted with the flywheel shows a crankshaft with a longer seal area than the LS1/LS6 pictures I have. Got me to thinking the flywheel needs to be moved away from the engine to get it closer to the transmission bellhousing. Then in the picture above I posted of the 5.3 in the Grand Prix, you can blow that section of the transmission up around the exhaust crossover and you can see the starter peeking out from behind the exhaust crossover and the typical purple wire to the solenoid. This allows the block to remain unchanged so the truck product line can use the typical RWD starter pad location on the block.

So, this 4T65eHD will be one of the first in a while that GM as put a device in that area. I have heard they have tried to put the altenator to the bellhousing to get rid of another device hanging off the front of the engine. Guess they have not got that working well still.

Loyde

[This message has been edited by FastFieros (edited 12-28-2004).]

I'm going to bump this, only because I see that we've had 824 hits on this thread, with only 31 responses - so there must be some interest!

I have a 5300 in a Suburban.

I drove it at 80-90+MPH from AZ to TX trouble free loaded with bikes and luggage.

An absolutely AMAZING motor.

5300 Fiero...Mmmmm

quote Originally posted by DanielKJenkins: I have a 5300 in a Suburban. I drove it at 80-90+MPH from AZ to TX trouble free loaded with bikes and luggage. An absolutely AMAZING motor. 5300 Fiero...Mmmmm

and what kind of MPG did you get?

Well, I will share another picture.

Confirms were the starter is.... I circled in red and green lines....

Loyde

I never thought to say, but I have a 5.3L in my 2004 Chevy pickup (with an Allison automatic transmission). I get 18 mpg around town. I've only been on one road trip so far and I got 22 mpg pulling a trailer with a car on it. It uses regular fuel. If I accidently hit the gas too quick it will absolutely smoke the tires!

Looks like it has a lot of potential to me. I was wondering how they were going to get the starter to work from that first pic.

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LS1 v8 T-Top 87 GT

http://www.acxunlimited.com/ls1swap.htm

i looked up the pics on service info 2000 a bit ago. the pic posted was there, but the pic of the tranie showed the usual bolt pattern, so something is wrong... back to knowing nothing.

does the starter position indicate a sbc bell pattern?

Will, the new envoys have electric gas pedals, if there is a failure, the throttle plate is left mostly closed. a little throttle is achieved with IGNITION timing alone! There are some happy customers. top speed is like 17mph. but yeah, it probably will revert to 8 cylinders. and the bell pattern will probably be sbc just to get the normal size flywheel and converters.

I just hope over the long term the engine works better than the last time the DoD concept (4 - 6 - 8) was tried by GM in one of Cadillac's motors. It was an episode which GM is curiously silent about this time around. One of the biggest pieces of junk ever designed by the General.

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