Yup, the cad 4-6-8 was a complete warantty disaster, and comsumer nightmare.

Oil changes are going to be needed in a very timely fashsion on this engine so those lifter holes and gallies do not get coked up.

Loyde

quote Originally posted by Czechfiero: ...Engineered specifically for front-drive layouts, the 5300 V-8... ...The all-aluminum 5300 V-8 is the third displacement offering of the Gen IV small-block, which was introduced in the 2005 Chevrolet SSR, GTO and Corvette, as well as several 2005 GM SUVs. The 5300 V-8 shares a common architecture with these other versions, including a deep-skirt block, six-bolt cross-bolted main bearing caps, and structural oil pan, but is modified to accommodate the "east-west" mounting position of the Grand Prix's front-wheel-drive chassis. To fit the "sideways" positioning in the Grand Prix, several changes were made to shorten the engine's overall length...

It would seem that if this much engineering ($$$) went into developing an engine specifically for front-drive apps, that GM's bean counters would never approve a special transmission case to complement it. But then again common sense doesn't always rule in Detroit.

I really hoped that this was going to be a special block. One that I could purchase and stuff with regular LS components. If it is a special transaxle it will likely cost a fortune because it is for a special version of the car. That means you won't see one every five miles down the road. That means the wrecking yards won't be full of them, and they won't sell 'em cheap.

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Todd Perkins - the member formerly known as "perkidelic"
todd's hot rods

[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 12-30-2004).]

Yup, I was a little disappointed when I read about this engine coming out. I have spent alot of $$$ in building the LS1/LS6 transverse mounting to the Grand Prix cradle and the Fiero cradle's.

With the engine being DOD, mod's are out in making real big HP for a little while. Plus, like you indicated, there's not going to be one in every jyard anytime soon.

Then the transmission? The bolt pattern really does not matter. Its LS1/LS6/LS4/LS2 I am fairly certain. So, putting this in a Fiero on one of those engines merely means E04 PCM, and hopefully kill the DOD if it is on anything but the LS4.

Back to what I have been working on for several months. LS1/LS6 adapter plate to 4T65eHD. I can configure a PCM to run the LS? engine and 65e transmission. I have all the mounts done, the exhaust is very simular to the Grand Prixs today, and only one belt runs all the accessories.

In case you have missed the General section of this forum, I have posted a couple of threads with developement pics inside those.

Loyde

[This message has been edited by FastFieros (edited 12-30-2004).]

I agree that it is a LS(x) style bolt pattern, and the starter must come from the back if those pictures are correct. the trans must also have a RWD pattern. I don't see these ending up in junkyards anytime soon either, but you may be able to buy parts such as the water pump housing and manifolds for current LS(x) style blocks, to make the current swaps easier.

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LS1 v8 T-Top 87 GT

http://www.acxunlimited.com/ls1swap.htm

[This message has been edited by LS1swap (edited 01-05-2005).]

All this information is good, but can we get down to numbers? I would like to know an estimated cost on this buildup, and put it against other engine swaps. Also if someone could figure average HP per $ for the swaps that could be more tell tale than anything else.

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Updated: 8/18/03 Check out some of my rides:
http://206.71.69.200

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: During V8 mode, the locking pins are pushed outward by spring force, locking the pin housing and outer housing together causing the lifter to function as a normal lifter. When V4 mode is commanded ON, the locking pins are pushed inward with engine oil pressure directed from the valve lifter oil manifold (VLOM) assembly solenoids. When the lifter pin housing is unlocked from the outer housing, the internal pin housing will remain stationary, while the outer housing will move with the profile of the camshaft lobe, which results in the valve remaining closed. One VLOM solenoid controls both the intake and exhaust valves for each deactivating cylinder. There are 2 distinct oil passages going to each DoD lifter bore, one for the hydraulic lash-adjusting feature of the lifter, and one for controlling the locking pins used for cylinder deactivation.

So the DoD failure mode is V8, meaning an ECM without DoD will be running V8 instead of V4.

quote Originally posted by Steve Normington: So the DoD failure mode is V8, meaning an ECM without DoD will be running V8 instead of V4.

That is the way I read that also....

If the cam sensor, and crank sensors are the same as the LS1/LS6, then you could run the engine on one of those PCM's. However, the TAP shift transmission must be run on E04 PCM, and the ETC must function correctly for all that to work.

Loyde

Maybe one of the aftermarket companies will make a controller for this tranny. This is starting to sound like a high-end swap ($$$) so another $700-1000 shouldn't make that much of a difference.

Unless that engine block ends up having the current front-drive bellhousing bolt pattern, I think I would rather spend my money building an LSx and 4T65E, "glued" together with an adapter plate.

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Todd Perkins - the member formerly known as "perkidelic"
todd's hot rods

I felt I should update the pics to this thread since I provided some infomation that is not correct. I got the new eSI2000 updates today and engine remove and replace is now documented on the 5.3DOD with the 4T65eHD transmission..

Here is the pic of the back of the engine with the M6 bolt pattern. (same as Fiero and 3800SC blocks)

Here is a pic of the transmission and I have circled the starter bolt on area in red...

Loyde

I was at the Chicago Auto Show today. Pontiac had a few of the FWD 5.3 V-8 cars at the show.

Well at least that's what the placard next to the cars said. However the guy who was attending to them refused to open any of the hoods for us. We looked underneath and there was black ASB covering everything. You couldn't even see the engine cradle. So I got inside one of them acting like I'd even consider buying a 4 door, I "accidently" pulled the hood release, guess what...... it wasn't hooked up.

It seems GM is pretty proud to show some pictures on the Internet, but not interested in showing you the hardware in person.

Wonder what they are hiding.

I also went over by the Solstice, didn't get anymore info or access from the people there either.

That sucks.

Archie

GM does that a lot at their shows, from what I've heard. It may have had a regular V6 and they wanted to advertise the 5.3, so they dress up the car to look like the 5.3 version and seal the engine compartment.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: GM does that a lot at their shows, from what I've heard. It may have had a regular V6 and they wanted to advertise the 5.3, so they dress up the car to look like the 5.3 version and seal the engine compartment.

At SEMA show in 2002 they had a Grand Prix GXP show car. Had the looks of the GXP, but a Series II 3800 under the hood.

Since no one else has brought this up, the FWD 5.3 is going to be used in the 2006 Impala SS and Monte Carlo SS also, so that increases our chances of finding a suitable donor. Official HP rating is 303 HP.

We are going to be able to start ordering the GXP Grand Prix within a month it seems like. I'll check on that one.

Thanks again for sharing your research with us, Loyde. Looks like GM thought it easier to modify the engine than
to fit the 12" converter to the trans. GM must also consider that the 10" converter can manage the Ls4's torque.

I wonder if I can use the adapter I made for the encono trans I blew to mount the 4t65e to my Ls1. I already have
a reverse drive starter working from the trans side so that won't be an issue.

Orville

quote Originally posted by Orville: Thanks again for sharing your research with us, Loyde. Looks like GM thought it easier to modify the engine than to fit the 12" converter to the trans. GM must also consider that the 10" converter can manage the Ls4's torque. I wonder if I can use the adapter I made for the encono trans I blew to mount the 4t65e to my Ls1. I already have a reverse drive starter working from the trans side so that won't be an issue. Orville

I am pretty sure you can make it work. I purchased a CNC mill and now have used MasterCam about 100 plus hours just messing with this motorplate I designed...

This 5.3 engine will make a good replacement to the 4.9 in terms of V8 power, but it will require alot of wiring and computer programming. I am still not sure if the PCM is all CAN, or if it will still program on VPW. CAN is not supported by HP Tuners still today, and DHP has no plans to support it at this time on V8's.

Loyde

Loyde, that's about the same pattern I have except that the top of the trans is rotated
about 3 to 4 degrees to the back of the car so that the lower starter hole on the engine
can be enlongated inward and used for a bolt into the lower trans hole on that side.
Also the adapter's made from 1/2" thick steel, if that dimension's important. And, if it's
not to far off topic, can anyone help me identify the 4t65e HD with the highest axel ratio
(what year, make, and model).

Orville

Yours will be this then....

I have messed with how I want that transmission about 10 different ways. GM setup the concept Impala engine with the transmission straight up. I know the 2.5 super duty blueprints have the transmission pattern 4 degrees off centerline.I am using steel inserts as my bolt attachment for the 4T65eHD bolts so I wanted the holes completely individual and lots of room around them for a nice press fit insert of the steel bushing. My plate is based on .500 also. My starter being in the oil pan mounting area however makes it where that measurement comes from for me.

See this webpage for the transmission specifications and build of RPO codes and options.

http://www.fastfieros.com/tech/4t65e_transmission_general.htm

Loyde

I know you say you need .500 for starter reasons, but .250 gives you the correct thickness for a stock ls1 flywheel. can you get the part number for that new 5.3 flex plate? that would seem to be the way to go if obtainable. I also have a acad drawing with the trans rotated 3 deg. if that would help. I also have another with just X,Y corodinates for the bolt holes with the center of the crank as the datum 0,0. on a side note if you ever need help with Auto Cad let me know. it can have a steep learning curve. @rellitive is your biggest friend

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LS1 v8 T-Top 87 GT

http://www.acxunlimited.com/ls1swap.htm

Bump. Any more info on the computers?

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Christian Thomas
87 Pontiac Fiero GT Burgandy/Silver 5.7L ZZ4 5spd

Next Mod: Stealth Ram.... before 2006?

quote Originally posted by CTFieroGT87: Bump. Any more info on the computers?

The computer I am going to run is a hybrid LS1/LQ4. This will allow HP Tuners or EFILIVE Flash to access the PCM via the OBDII port and tune away. I have even found a ETC method if I wanted that, but the torque management is still not fully controlled by the programmer. There are parameters to ETC that no one really understands but GM engineers. I will be using cable throttle body's.

The 5.3 is VPW with expanded CAN on the ABS and some transmission controls. I have seen a transmission schematic and there appears to be a transmission control module. This is bad. Means even more functions that HP Tuners will have to hack and get access to. If it just gets info from the PCM then maybe it will not be that bad.

Loyde

Bump. Anything new?

I just drove an '06 GXP today. Lots of power but the torque steer is terrible.

Any more info on a potential swap?