I think the rear caliper design on the Fiero is an engineering disaster. The evil genius who designed that thing ought to be boiled in hot brake fluid.

That said, I really like the idea of putting front calipers on the back of my car. It works great from a traditional braking standpoint, but I kinda like being able to jump out of the car at the MAC machine without shutting the engine off. Not to mention the fact that I must have a parking brake in order to pass my safety inspection which rules out using a wheel chock, so.......

Let's discuss alternatives to the stock parking brake. Anyone got any proven ideas? I've heard people mention spot calipers or line locks, but has anyone actually DONE either? What else could be done?

-Bruce at FTF Engineering

I took this at the 2003 Swapmeet, no information on the car.

JazzMan

Hi Bruce,

Line Lock is a bad idea. Mechanical ones are a little more reliable than electric controled ones but either can break or leak down. The leak can be anywhere in the system. You really don't want to leave a vehicle held by a line lock unless you are right there and preferably in it. You also don't want any passengers in the car that might fiddle with things. It is extremely easy to release many line locks.

Many wreckers run line locks for additional hold while loading/pulling things. Smart wrecker drivers use the line lock as a supliment to the e brake not a replacement. Wrecker grade line locks are pretty heavily built and reliable but you still don't want to leave them on as a parking brake or you can damage stuff.

Many of the ones sold thru speed shops are made only for very short use like holding durring staging. Especially the electric control ones. I wouldn't trust any of those enough to get out of the vehicle. You don't want any type that requires electrical power to hold.

Wilwood Baer and a few others have spot calipers. They sell them for use with their custom systems. Installing this would be bracket work if there is space in the pie. I don't know if there is an area inside the wheel with enough room that you can mount the spot and also get the cables to them etc. (Assuming stock wheels and rotors, it's pretty crowded.)

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The only thing George Orwell got wrong was the year...

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top of every forum page...)

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: I took this at the 2003 Swapmeet, no information on the car. JazzMan

Thanks Jazz, That's a good start.

That's one of them "spot calipers", huh? I would assume that it's Wildwood (since the main caliper has their name on it), but can you confirm since you got a better look in person?

quote Originally posted by theogre: Line Lock is a bad idea. Mechanical ones are a little more reliable than electric controled ones but either can break or leak down.

Hey Ogre,

Yeah, I agree. I wouldn't trust line locks for this, but thought I would throw it out there since I knew it would come up sooner or later. I'm sure someone out there has done it and "it worked great", but I'm too conservative for that. I don't want hydraulics, and I sure don't want any electronics. I guess that leaves mechanical spot calipers, huh?

Ever seen anything that can be done "inboard" (grabs the axle instead of the rotor)?

-Bruce

I'm also very interested. I have already replaced my rear 88' calipers with front ones, because my rears were junk, and new ones cost too much. Ebrake cables were junk too. Wish there was something else I could do.

I have no further info on that spot caliper. I only took that picture of the rear brakes, and didn't look any closer. It's been too long for me to remember any details.

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: I have no further info on that spot caliper. I only took that picture of the rear brakes, and didn't look any closer. It's been too long for me to remember any details. JazzMan

I found Wilwoods "billet spot caliper" here. About two thirds down the page in pdf format.

http://www.wilwood.com/Centers/Catalog/pages/CALIPER.asp

Doesn't look anything like the one in your pic, and it's hydraulic to boot.

I found Baer here: http://www.baer.com , but there isn't any specific info available on-line. You either have to call or order their catalog for details.

-Bruce

Inboard on a transaxle would be a really ugly amount of work if it can be done. Imposible with some transaxles due to lack of space. allot of right side axles are really closed to the engine.

You can't grab the axle itself since it may not be in exactly the same location as load in the car changes. Don't forget the axle moves in at least two ways... in/out as it arcs up/down and probably a little front to back as well. You'd have to have a huge range of caliper float/clearance to follow it.

You'd prety much have to put a rotor on the inner CV of each axle as well as figure out how to mount the spot calipers. They need to mount on the transmisson, which some trans cases aren't going to like. They can't go on the cradle because the trans also moves in operation even with the stiffest mounts.

If you had the room it could probably be done. I can't say how reliable it would be or if it would pass inspections. I don't know what would be harder... probably trying to mount the spot calipers in a way that the trans will like. It doesn't take much to break some cases if they get a wierd load.

That pic looks like a Held big brake kit, which comes with a separate parking brake caliper.
I emailed them about it but didn't get any info on whether or not it would work on a stock braking system. In theory you should be able to just get the parking brake caliper and hook it up to the OEM e-brake cable.

http://www.heldmotorsports.com/brake13.htm

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 01-26-2005).]

quote Originally posted by theogre: Inboard on a transaxle would be a really ugly amount of work if it can be done. You'd prety much have to put a rotor on the inner CV of each axle as well as figure out how to mount the spot calipers.

I was more thinking rotors attached to the OUTER CV's and mounting calipers to the back side of the rear spindles. I guess that isn't really inboard then, huh? Yeah, OK... It was a stupid idea.

Back to the spot caliper options... I did find Wilwood's mechanical spot here: http://www.magnumforce.com/images/product_images/wilwood/wilwood_single_15.jpg And it looks like that's what was used on the car Jazz pictured.

Funny though... I can't find it on WILWOOD's site, only elsewhere.

I also found another option here: http://www.aerospacecomponents.com/page19a.htm#p19a , but looks like the same functionality as Wilwood for about four times the cost.

-Bruce

[This message has been edited by FTF Engineering (edited 01-26-2005).]

The wides one specs a "disc width" of 0.81" so go with that.
Next time I'm over at my garage, I'll try to measure the width of some 88 rotors, unless someone beats me to it.

.81 WILL DO THE TRICK ON THE '88

I HATE THE PARK BRAKE DESIGN TOO, BUT THE NEW STYLE IS JUST AS BAD IN MY OPINION. THEY USE A DRUM BRAKE INSIDE OF THE ROTOR. IT GETS USED SO LITTLE THAT IT ALWAYS RUSTS UP AND WEAR ON THE PADS. LOTS OF AFTERMARKET COMPANIES ARE USING THE SAME DESIGN NOW TOO.

HERE IS WHAT I AM GOING TO TRY WHEN IT COMES TIME FOR MY 87. IF YOU TAKE A SCREW TYPE MECHANISM LIKE WHAT IS IN THE 88 PISTON AND USED THAT CONCEPT ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE PISON IT WOULD PINCH THE PADS OFF TO ONE SIDE. THIS WOULD NOT BE A PROBLEM IN MY OPINION, BECAUSE ITS A PARK OR EMERGENCY BRAKE AND WOULD NOT GET ANY ACTUAL CROOKED WEAR. THE DOWN SIDE IS IT WOULD REQUIRE MANUAL ADJUSTMENT BECAUSE THE SCREW IS NOT MOVING WITH THE PISTON TO ACCOUNT FOR WEAR.
I COULD HANDLE THAT.

OK, so let's recap... The only viable parking brake alternative suggested so far is a mechanical spot caliper.

Is anyone familiar with other calipers that have a WELL DESIGNED built in parking brake that could be adapted to the rear of the Fiero? I know... I know... It kinda nullifies the basic advantage of using the Fiero front calipers on the rear, but it may be simpler in the long run.

Thoughts? Any other ideas? -Bruce at FTF

I vaguely recall someone using caddy calipers with P-brake on the rear, removing and inverting/swapping the brackets to maintain proper orientation for the Fiero cable configuration.

That's all I've got, sorry.

Oh, howabout using the internal drum brake function on the 11" Chrysler LeBaron upgrade?

JazzMan

That spot caliper looks like the set up that bubbajoe has used and may still be using. I know I have seen it in one of his build threads here and on his site also.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: I vaguely recall someone using caddy calipers with P-brake on the rear, removing and inverting/swapping the brackets to maintain proper orientation for the Fiero cable configuration. That's all I've got, sorry. Oh, howabout using the internal drum brake function on the 11" Chrysler LeBaron upgrade? JazzMan

yeah its the caddilac front and rear calipers with the 11.25" lebaron rotor swap

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: I vaguely recall someone using caddy calipers with P-brake on the rear, Oh, howabout using the internal drum brake function on the 11" Chrysler LeBaron upgrade?

Thanks Jazz and Kohburn,

You wouldn't happen to know the details of how the Caddy P-brake works, would you? I'm kinda leery about using another GM caliper that may have the same problems. I don't wanna go swapping one crappy GM parking brake design for another.

I do like the concept of using a mini-drum built inside the rotor. I think it allows the designers to separate and hence concentrate on the two different braking functions without having to compromise the design of either system. Since so many manufacturer's are now using this concept I must assume they have figured out a way to actually make it cheaper than building complex calipers with P-brake functions built in. And, if you use them regularly, you should be able to avoid the problems that ricreatr described.

So... If I like it so much, why don't I do it? Complexity, that's why.

It means all the work of a full blown brake swap PLUS you have to mount a new backing plate to hold the mini-shoes. And you still have the issues of changing the brake biasing and all that.

The reason I like the front calipers on the back idea is that it bolts right on and doesn't change the brake functioning or biasing at all. No brackets, no proportioning valve changes, no new rotors required, no backing plate changes, no nothing.

And of course, the reason we're here...... No parking brake.

-Bruce

I don't know anything about caddy calipers....

I've seen the drum/rotor setups. I've always thought it was a lame setup. Way to many parts... A cop out to solving the problems that all car makers have had with 4 wheel disk brakes. At least it usually works.

Bruce... Call Wilwood and Baer... See what they have to say. Both do this crap for a living and they don't seem to want to sell whatever crap under the sun just to make a buck. Unlike Fiero Wh(st)ore that loves to regularly rip off everyone else's work.

FTF you have a PM

Also Held will sell their parking brake separately, but you'd need to make sure it's the right size and you'd still need an adapter plate to mount it. That seems like the most elegant solution to me.

quote Originally posted by theogre: Call Wilwood and Baer...

Thanks again guys. Seems like the mechanical spot caliper continues to lead the pack of alternatives. It does sound like the most elegant solution. I should be able to handle any mounting bracket fabrication that needs to be done and it won't preclude changing to bigger brakes sometime in the future.

Now I have to decide if it's worth the time to take my rear pistons apart and clean all the crap out one more time or if that time would be better spent making mounting brackets just and move on...

-Bruce.

PS - fiero go fast, PM back-atcha

Held will sell the caliper for $100 setup to work with the Fiero cable. You'll have to fab a bracket to mount it though. Anyone up for it?

Brett

[This message has been edited by soloyosh (edited 02-09-2005).]

quote Originally posted by soloyosh: Held will sell the caliper for $100 setup to work with the Fiero cable. You'll have to fab a bracket to mount it though. Anyone up for it? Brett

Brett,

I'm not sure what you're suggesting here... I thought we concluded above that Held was reselling Wilwood's mechanical spot caliper which you can get from www.magnumforce.com for $55.00.

WIL120-2280 - Mechanical Spot Caliper - Price: $55.00

Is there something that Held does to this caliper that would make it worth an additional $45 to buy it from Held? In other words, why should I buy it for $100 when I can get it for $55? Is that what you meant when you said it's setup to work with the Fiero cable?

I'm not trying to be a pain. I'm just confused. -Bruce

Held modifies them to work with the OE Fiero E-brake cables.

Brett

quote Originally posted by soloyosh: Held modifies them to work with the OE Fiero E-brake cables.

Hi Brett,

Got it, thanks. I figured there had to be an explanation, but I just wasn't getting it.

Thanks for clearing that up. -Bruce

Maybe someone should come out with a kit and help out all of us Fiero owners with different brake set-ups! I have a 86 SE V6 and I have Berreta front brakes on the rear of my car and I am scrambling to find a way to put a parking brake on it so I can get it inspected! Would anyone have a template for a bracket? I can get things machined but I am unsure on how to measure.

anyone ever consider the corvette rear disks or just unhappy with gms emergency breacks period?
i have owned mant different cars with rear disk brakes, lincoln, corvette, and mercedes. the vette rear emergency brakes never failed, and it was a 76, the lincolns were fine, and the mercedes were of the drum type like the ones you have mentioned, all have worked fine for me when properly maintained.
the two fiero's i have the emergency brake have worked fine so far altho i do not use them very often on the v6 auto. one thing my dad had always told me about any emergency brake was, "if you use them, use them all the time if you dont use them dont"
useing them all the time keeps them moveing and in working order not useing them lets the cables get rusty and stop releaceing.
the system has been around for years. if it ainr broke dont fix it!

The Wilwood mech. caliper is a bolt-togther design and could be adapted to rotors thicker than 0.81 by fabbing a spacer to fit between the caliper halves to increase the 0.81 as needed for a thicker rotor. Making it work with the Fiero cable may mean a special clevis and a return spring.

I'm going to be following this also...I've been "refreshing" my suspension lately, and I had a bear of a time with the rear calipers, and I *just* rebuilt them. They function just fine, but compressing the piston (spinning it back down) is pretty much impossible, even with the spiffy tool from Fierostore. I'm definitely not looking forward to replacing pads again back there.

I think I like the spot caliper option, now all I have to do is see if front calipers in the rear with a spot caliper is still CSP legal in SCCA...Doubt it, but I may not care next time I have to take that stuff apart. Rule book time!

The rear calipers on my 96 Probe GT simply have a lever that pushes the inbord pad towards the disk and simultaneously pulls the caliper and the outboard pad towards tho opposite face of the disk. It works flawlessly, even after 130,000 miles. I've only adjusted it once in that time. I was considering Grand Am brakes on the rear with the same sort of lever setup, but I haven't given it any real thought yet.

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1986 SE 350 V8

quote Originally posted by squisher86SE: all I have to do is see if front calipers in the rear with a spot caliper is still CSP legal in SCCA.

You can tell them that the piston diameter is identical to stock and hence there is absolutely no change in braking performance. Stress that the change is for maintance and reliability only, not for performance.

Maybe that will work? -Bruce

[This message has been edited by FTF Engineering (edited 10-25-2005).]

Oh, howabout using the internal drum brake function on the 11" Chrysler LeBaron upgrade?

JazzMan

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I like Jazzman suggestion. If you are doing the 11 1/4 brake update you already have the chrysler rotors with the dram brake. Just adapt the chrysler backing blate and shoes to the Fiero. Then the Camero/Caddy front GM metric calipers can be used. The savings on the use of these calipers whould most likely pay for the drum emergency brake parts. with $ to spare.

Has anybody tried it?

Dick C.

Well, nothing in the SCCA Solo Rules say anything about alternative calipers, but I know a few guys I can ask who have been doing this for a long time.

The spot caliper itself I don't think would be any real problem, since it pretty much is never used while racing, and since the front caliper would be the same performance characteristics I can probably get by with it on our regional level, but it probably wouldn't fly any higher than that.

Like I said, I may not care about SCCA rules when I have to change pads again...GRR

BTW, I really like this setup

Hey, i got something you might be interested in as an alternative!!! I call it the parking *brick*
How it works is when you need to use it, you put your car into N, jump out (quickly if your car is on a incline)
and put the parking brick behind or infront of the tire of your choice!
Not sure how much they will be selling for but, im open for offers

Just checked the brakes on my wife's 93 Lumina sedan. looked awfully familliar !

I'm going to look them over closely to see if they are the same as the Fiero's.
BTW, The Lumina's rear brakes are completely non-functional. (maybe they are the same? )

Remember it is also an EMERGENCY BRAKE. If the system fails, loose power etc, you want a separate system to stop. Thus the cable setup.

I think part of the problem is in the pads. I am going to try ceramic pads on the rear next change. First I am going to jack the rear wheels off the ground and start the car and apply the foot brakes and put in gear then rev the engine up and I will bet that the pads will not hold enough to Lock the wheels. Maybe not but I am going to check it out. If the pads will not lock the wheels then I think you are wasting your time trying to fix the ebrake.
Don

[This message has been edited by ka4nkf (edited 10-26-2005).]