I'm relatively new to the Fiero scene and have been (bravely) trying to do most of the work on the car myself--learning as I go along. I'm not too familiar with engines and mechanical repairs, but I can ususally follow instructions pretty well and have managed to do alot with the help of the forum search and my Haynes and Chilton manuals. (My next purchase is a service manual.)

Here's the history on the car. I have an '88 couple, automatic, with the original 4 cylinder, 2.5L engine with about 109K miles on it. The car apparently hadn't been driven since '96 (which was the last time it was registered and inspected). When I bought it from the dude, it had an overheating problem that he couldn't figure out how to solve (he also didn't know much about Fieros, so couldn't seem to figure out how the cooling system worked in the first place). So I get the car about a week ago and since then have replaced the thermostat (it didn't have one), starter, alternator, torque strut bolt (dogbone), EGR valve, belt, swaybar bushings on both sides, spark plugs and transmission fluid. We also replaced the seal on the gasket, but 1) it was cork and 2) some of the screws were missing, so it started leaking again, so I plan on replacing that with a rubber one today.

Throughout all of these changes, the way the engine was running kept getting better and smoother. There were no shakes, no smoke from the exhaust and no water from the exhaust pipes. It wasn't idling high and shifted through each gear smoothly, so I don't think there's any problem with the transmission.

We thought originally the overheating problem was caused by the water pump needing to be replaced, but after putting in a thermostat, it seemed to work better and wouldn't overheat in 5 minutes like before. After driving it the day before yesterday and having it overheat 4-5 times, we decided that it was definitely the water pump going bad. (It would pump water sometimes, but apparently not enough to keep the engine cool.) So yesterday one of my fiero buddies from the forum came over and we replaced the water pump.

After reconnecting everything, the belt tensioner didn't want to cooperate, so my new belt ended up having some play it it--not a whole lot, but it wasn't as tight as before. As a result, when I started the engine, I got that high-pitched swealing that signals a loose belt. I figured I'd either take the tensioner off and try to reinstall it, or try to find a new assembly and replace that too. We shut the car off, added some water and checked the thermostat placement.

When we started it up again, all of a sudden it immediately started billowing white smoke/steam from the exhaust. (Now it had never smoked before.) While the engine was running, we removed the thermostat cover and white smoke/steam started coming from there too. The temperature on the car wasn't high, though. In fact, it was perfectly cool.

My buddy seemd to think that it's a blown head gasket, since it had been driven while overheating. The theory is that since the water pump wasn't working correctly, that the water wasn't circulating and therefore didn't get to the head gasket so we didn't know it was blown. Now that the water pump is working, the water is circulating properly and we've got the tell-tale sign of a blown head gasket--white smoke.

I'm going to pick up the new head gasket today and try to do the replacement myself. I've checked both the Haynes and Chilton manuals and they mention squat about changing these things. So what do I do? All of the threads that I've found in the search related to 2.8L engines and didn't have any step by step instructions.

If you have any pics, please include them and detailed instructions are a must. I'm thinking this is the last thing (for the moment) that I have to do to get the car running well enough to take it and get the oil changed. (I can't get the bolt off to get to the filter inside the oil pan, so I'm taking it to someplace that has worked on Fieros before.)

Help!

--Tress

------------------

I may not know alot about cars...but I make a Fiero look good!
"The Hottie" Coming Soon!

What the oil look like? Should be milky if you have a bad head gasket, from the water mixing wtih the oil.

What do you mean by "milky"? It looked the same way it's always looked--dirty brown because it needs to be changed.

Does that mean there's hope?

--Tress

Overheating a motor, especially to the point where it shuts off, is very, very, very bad for it. If you're blowing steam out the exhaust then at a minimum the gasket is blown, and it may also have cracked a head. The iron duke heads are especially sensitive to overheat-induced cracking, but in any case you'll need to get the head off to replace the gasket and inspect the head. On the L4 engines this isn't actually all that hard to do, just tedious.

You'll need a good torque wrench for reassembly, regular hand-tools, and a new gasket. I recommend FelPRO gaskets only, the Permatorque line. AutoZone has the best prices on FelPRO that I've seen lately. Have you got a service manual yet? The Chiltons and Haynes manuals will have the procedure for this in them, including torque specs for reassembly.

After getting the head off the engine you should take it to a machine shop to have it magnafluxed for cracks. Magnafluxing is a technique where they apply a very strong magnetic field to the cylinder head and then dust the head with fine metal powder. Any cracks, including ones you cannot see, will show up as lines in the powder. Considering the overheating history of this head, this procedure would be mandatory to perform, at a minimum.

If the head isn't cracked then you might ask the machinist what he would charge for grinding the valves and installing new umbrella and stem seals, and also, have him check that the head isn't warped too bad from the overheat.

JazzMan

Another way you can tell is by running a commpression check on the motor. The Hayes manual should give you the info you need for it and the gauge can be had at your local Autozone. I'm not sure what the readings should be for the 4 banger but the main thing is that they should all be within 10-15%% of each other.

Good luck

.

[This message has been edited by joshua riedl (edited 04-09-2005).]

I was chicken to tell her that Jazzman!
I can see her crying about now . . . . .

Since you said 'billowing', I'll assume it's more than just the condensation that can collect in the exhaust system after the car has been sitting for a couple of days.
If it's billowing white smoke from the exhaust, it almost certainly is 'burning' the coolant. It could either be a blown head gasket or a cracked head or (much less likely) block. IIRC, 4 cylinder engines seem to be worse about cracking heads than the V-6. Not saying that's definitley what it is, but you should probably have the head checked for cracks while you have it off of the engine.
You definitely need a Helms manual and/or someone who really knows what they're doing, before you jump on a head gasket replacement. I might be able to blunder my way through, but I don't know enough about the 4 cylinder to tell anyone else how to do it.

I'm sure others can add more info.

Edit: Not only can they add more info, they beat me to it while I was typing.

Also, my 88 alternator was not adjustable. If the belt isn't snug when the tensioner is released, then something is wrong. Either the tensioner is bad or the belt is routed incorrectly (very easy to do, BTW.)
Click on Ogre's Cave link at the top of the page. Once the menu loads, click on powertrain, engine, 4 cylinder, DIS L4 replace. There's lots of good info there, including belt routing. The Ogre probably has the best collection of 87-88 4 cylinder information that you'll find.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 04-09-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Indiana_resto_guy: I was chicken to tell her that Jazzman! I can see her crying about now . . . . .

It's actually not all that hard to redo the head on the Dukes. The rockers are non-adjustable so there's no fiddling with valve adjustment, the torque sequence is simple and easy to do, etc. Even the head isn't as heavy as many heads are so it isn't a backbreaker to get it in and out of the engine bay.

JazzMan

a. Remove the neg battery cable.
b. Remove the air cleaner assy.
c. Since you are good with a digital camera, take lots of detailed pics of the wiring and vacum routing.
d. For me, it's easier to pull the head with the intake manifold attached. You don't have to remove the alternator that way to get acess to the intake to cyl head bolts, but you may want to because of the alternator bracket.
e. Remove the spark plug wires from the plugs, after numbering each one.
f. Remove the exhaust manifold bolts. Careful with these, they've been in there a long time and may break off if you just try to unscrew them with brute force. The manifold will hang off to the front, no need to unbolt it from the cat pipe.
g. Remove any wire loom retainers bolted to the cylinder head.
h. Remove the connector for the temp sensor and fan switch that screws into the head. (may not apply on an 88.)
i. Remove the egr valve--again.
j. remove the valve cover--again.
k. Remove the rocker arm retainer bolts. Do not remove the push rod guides or pushrods yet.
l. Get a small pasteboard box, like a shoe box and poke holes in it with a pencil. Number 1 thru 8. Remove the push rods one at a time and keep them in order in the numbered holes. Do the same with the guides.
m. Remove the dogbone-again.
n. Look on the far right end of the cylinder head and see if there is a plastic wire cover. Remove it if your engine uses it.
o. Drain the coolant-all of it.
p. Remove the coolant hoses that interact with the cyl head/thermostat housing.
q. Remove the cylinder head bolts. Again, be carefull. They break.
r. Look to be sure everything is disconected. Brackets, wire conectors etc.You should be able to run your hand 360 degrees around the cylinder head without stopping.
s. On the end of the cylinder head, you will see an area where you can fit a prybar under a lip. This is where you wil want to pry the head from the block.
t. When it pops up, lift the entire thing straight up and set it off to the side.
u. Right now, wipe any coolant that may be in the cylinders clean. Dry it well and coat the cylinders with clean oil. They will rust in no time in the NOLA humidity. Inspect the cylinder walls for extreme scratches or gouges.
v. Remove the intake if still attached to the head. Take the head to an engine machine shop for rebuilding/inspecting as suggested above.
w. Drain the oil. It is likely now contaminated with coolant.
x. While the intake is out of the way, inspect the lifter cover on the side of the block for signs of leaking. Now is the time to change the gasket and seals around the bolts/studs while you can get to easily. Also look at the oil pressure sender for signs of leakage. Again-now is the time.

I'm sure I've forgotten something, but almost out of letters anyway.

I'm gonna cry! I've only had the car for a week, and of course since I just got the new title on Monday and the car is officially mine all this crap happens!

What started out as a just a simple "overheating problem" has developed into a money and time worm-hole! I understand that the car is old and that it apparently hasn't been driven in almost 10 years and therefore hasn't been taken care of, but it seems that everytime I get something fixed, there's something else that pops up.

I can't afford to take it to a machinist--I'm afraid of the prospect of even walking in there--I'd look too much like a deer caught in headlights 'cause I'd be too afraid of what he'd tell me.

Forgive the rant, but I'm just a little bit frustrated right now. I bought this car to be a daily driver and I haven't even been able to really drive the darn thing. I'm not giving up on it, but it's looking like I'm going to be forced into either renting another car (which I can't afford to keep doing) or spending alot on repairs (that I can't afford right now). So I'm pretty much forced to do this myself as much as possible. I'm afraid to even total the receipts so far to see what the damage to my account has been.

Is there any way for me to try replacing the head gasket, then getting it over to see if everything else is okay? The guy who installed the water pump last night at first thought it was the catalytic converter. Are the symptoms with a blown head gasket and a bad catalytic converter similar?

Any and all help would be very much appreciated.

--Tress

--edit--while I was typing my rant, others were posting additional info--thanks guys. What about the converter? Should I be worried about that as well?

[This message has been edited by Miss-Tress007 (edited 04-09-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Miss-Tress007: I'm gonna cry! I've only had the car for a week, and of course since I just got the new title on Monday and the car is officially mine all this crap happens! What started out as a just a simple "overheating problem" has developed into a money and time worm-hole! I understand that the car is old and that it apparently hasn't been driven in almost 10 years and therefore hasn't been taken care of, but it seems that everytime I get something fixed, there's something else that pops up. I can't afford to take it to a machinist--I'm afraid of the prospect of even walking in there--I'd look too much like a deer caught in headlights 'cause I'd be too afraid of what he'd tell me. Forgive the rant, but I'm just a little bit frustrated right now. I bought this car to be a daily driver and I haven't even been able to really drive the darn thing. I'm not giving up on it, but it's looking like I'm going to be forced into either renting another car (which I can't afford to keep doing) or spending alot on repairs (that I can't afford right now). So I'm pretty much forced to do this myself as much as possible. I'm afraid to even total the receipts so far to see what the damage to my account has been. Is there any way for me to try replacing the head gasket, then getting it over to see if everything else is okay? The guy who installed the water pump last night at first thought it was the catalytic converter. Are the symptoms with a blown head gasket and a bad catalytic converter similar? Any and all help would be very much appreciated. --Tress

You might want to take a breather and relax, allow time to get back in the right frame of mind.

Machinist's aren't necessarily that expensive, just call around and talk to them. Generally the smaller independants will be more willing to work with you on price.

For example, my machinist is in a little hole in the wall building off on the bad side of town. I bought a used duke head and brought it in to him, he completely rebuilt the head with all new seals, and helicoiled two exhaust bolt holes that were trashed, for less than $100. That's probably not much more than you spent on your alternator. If you bring the head in yourself and talk to them about what you're trying to accomplish, resurrecting a Fiero to life, they'll likely be willing to help you out.

In terms of difficulty of all the mechanical stuff that can be done on a car, with 1 being air filter change and 10 being engine overhaul or manual tranny overhaul, this ranks about a 4, maybe a 5. Your alternator would be a 3, the water pump would be a 3. From what I've seen you do so far, this would easily be within your level of experience and skills, though it might take you two or three times as long do to as a pro mechanic.

You're doing all the right things to get this car reliable, and this will likely be the last major thing to do. Don't talk yourself out of finishing the race just a few laps shy of the finish line.

If you do need another head they can be found in wrecking yards fairly cheap, and even off the forum here if you ask in the mall.

JazzMan

JazzMan PM sent.

When you pull the head off before you wipe anything do a visual inspecton. You may see a small rust track or where the head gasket has blown. If you see this you may get away with replacing the gasket, but I wouldn't recomend it. You would have it apart this far you shouldn't take the chance of ot haveing the head checked out. Valve job on a 4cyl head usualy runs under $100.

quote Originally posted by joshua riedl: first the altenator is adjustable, you just put a new one in so it probably just got moved. so move the altenator so the belt tensioner has enough grab to spin the water pump, then bleed out the air and then see if when you start it up water is being blown out of the housing. you could even spend the money on a pressure checker but if it fails then it's still not a guarantee it's the headgasket.

88 L4... Full Serpent belt system and the alternator is Not adjustable. Belt tension is provided by a sprung idler pully. The tensioner definitely sounds bad on this engine or you have a belt the wrong size.

It sounds like the head gasket let go. Blowing an intake gasket would not pressurize the cooling system.

DO NOT reuse the head bolts!!!!!!! This engine uses Torque To Yield bolts that must be replaced every time the head is off. You will need a torque wrench and an angle indicator set to install these bolts properly.

What Jazz said about cracking is true. Don't even bother reinstalling the head until it is tested for cracks. The L4 also has a nasty habit of breaking a head bolt between #2 and #3 exhaust outlets. This can make the head gasket fail and result in head crack from uneven stress.

Lisle makes a wrench especially for this engine's oil filter plug. It works like a pipe wrench turned inside out. If the plug is damaged try to get a replacement. It will make future changes easier. (Lisle tools can be ordered thru various parts stores.)

Frankly... I'd just look for another good used 87-91 Vin R L4. You can get them from several FWD cars. Try to find the "older" version that uses the standard spin on oil filter. It may vibrate slightly more than the version you have but there are several fewer things to go wrong with it. A used engine likely won't cost any more than fixing this one.

------------------
The only thing George Orwell got wrong was the year...

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top of every forum page...)

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 04-09-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Miss-Tress007: but it seems that everytime I get something fixed, there's something else that pops up.

Welcome to the Fiero World!

Good Luck getting it all fixed!

------------------

Choptopped WideBody GT 1 of 1

quote Originally posted by Miss-Tress007: I'm gonna cry!

Told ya Jazz!
I do hope it is just the gasket!

quote Originally posted by theogre: A used engine likely won't cost any more than fixing this one.

What he said

Well think about it...

Just in gaskets and head bolts this repair is getting well into the price of a good used engine. Add in the crack testing for the head and any other work it needs and you have easily gone over the 200-300 $ that used L4 engines run in many places.

Even if it is just a blown gasket.... this engine has been overheated a bunch of times. That is ALWAYS a bad sign. It means this engine is well on its way to the scrap heap. Overheating will cook the piston rings and chew up the cylinders among other things. Fixing this engine is just a waste of money unless you intend to rebuild the entire thing. It may run for a few weeks or a few months but it will probably die sooner rather than later. Likely in some realy nasty place where you don't want to be with a dead car.

Swapping an engine sounds allot harder than it really is. You just have to understand how cars are made and then you can understand how to swap the engines in record time. I can drop/pull and replafce the engines or trnasmissions of most cars in just a few hours.

The key is to just sit and look and follow things around....

Everything that goes to the engine and trans is built so that the entire assembly can meet the car as a whole plug and play unit. Carmakers had plug and play down 40-50 years ago. (this is an area where computer people could do allot learning from the car makers.)

Elecrticals have 2-3 major connection points. Like C500 and the ECm in Fiero.
Hoses all have fairly easy to access joints in at least one location of each hose.

In Fiero...

You take apart the two items I mentioned above.
Take the brake calipers off and tie them asside.
Disconnect the shifter cable(s).
Take the 3 small nuts off each strut top.
Support the cradle and take out the 4 bolts holding it.
Lift the car off the power train.

I'm just skimming over but there aren't allot of details to worry about. Carmakers design this stuff so that fairly stupid people on an assembly line can put it together with minimal chance for problems. I'm not saying all assembly people are stupid but the designers have to make the stuff idiot proof just to make the build lines run as fast as they do. This works very well for service people that understand what the designers are dealing with. The designers cant afford the time it takes for even the smartest line worker to think about a hard to connect part. Everything has to fir right on one try. If the line slows down the bean counters start screaming real loud real fast.

I got to studying this years ago after watching a few people change engines of inline RWD cars. They would try to pull just the engine, meaning they had a nightmare accessing some transmission bolts. I pulled the whole engine and trans just like the factory installed it and was done with the whole project in about 4-5 hours instead of the 2 days I'd seen other people take trying to fight with bolts that you weren't ment to get at with the engine in the vehicle.

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 04-09-2005).]

The problem with buying a used motor is that it takes a lot of money and time to get it installed before you can tell if it's a good motor and doesn't have its own set of problems. Unless the motor came out of a car that I had a chance to drive and hear it run I wouldn't buy it unless it was for the purpose of an overhaul or core.

For her experience so far changing out a motor would not only be more expensive but it would require tools that she probably doesn't have access to like an engine hoist and dual high-quality floor jacks. The 2.5s aren't known for bad bottom ends so replacing or rebuilding the head on hers is a good economical choice for a fairly reliable car.

JazzMan

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 04-09-2005).]

Sounds like time for a motor swap, spend a few more dollars and drop in an L-67.

Jazz... It's not the bottom end I'm worried about... The rings have been cooked from multiple overheats. I don't think the crank or rods will go bad but the rings are potentially going south and fairly soon from this.

Several of the yards I deal with leave good engines alone. You can start most of them and see if they smoke etc before buying. In many cases the engines are in cars that have been hit in some area away from the engine so the car is trash but the engine is just fine. I haven't had problems dropping used engines in cars. There is always some chance you'll get a bad used engine but it's not any worse of a gamble in this case than fixing a cooked engine.

I guess it comes down to what yards are in your area and how they are run. I wouldn't repair an engine that has suffered multiple overheats. I've done that only to have the bloody thing drop rings on one or more cylinders in fairly short amounts of time.

I don't know what tools and help she has. I'm just saying that in this case the motor may not be worth fixing and why.

I agree.

Also, with the engine sitting for over 10 years, the oil that has been sitting in there for that time has probably rotted the seals out. And maybe plugged stuff up.

The yard here in town tests their engines before selling them, at this yard, you cannot remove your own parts, it is sorta like a parts store.

The one in Edmonton, an hour away, you remove your own parts, so you know what the car looked like, but the condition is uknown, but this yard has a 90 day warranty. The first one is only 30 days. But still plenty of time.

If you replace your head gasket, then you have no warranty at all.

Options--and observations.

options
1. Do the cyl head job as you originally planned and hope for the best. Probably $200 counting machine work and gaskets. If needed, contact Ed Parks (Fiero Factory) in North Alabama and see if he has a good cylinder head. There are other Fiero vendors who may have one but I mention Ed as he is probably the closest. Loyde Rascoe (FastFieros)in DFW is another that is fairly close by.

2. Purchase a used engine from a yard, and hope it is a good one, tho I kinda agree with Jazzman here. It's a crap shoot of sorts too. Or bide your time and buy one from a PFF member. Not sure what one would run from a salvage yard, but I've seen them advertised in the PFF mall for $200.

3. Take the $200 (approx estimate) you would pay for the salvage engine, buy a remanufactored long block. I bought a non-dis long block a few yrs ago for Jane's Fiero for $980. Core charge was $200, which I got back. A premium long block from Grooms Engine is more than that, but they have a good rep and a good guarantee. Get the Fiero bunch in NOLA and your mehanic mentor over one weekend to help you do the R&R. Ed Parks can fix you up with Grooms contact info,if you choose to go that route tho they might also have an outlet in NOLA.

4. Buy a good running 2.5 complete as you want from Ed Parks. (assuming he has one laying around)

5. Buy a 2.8-from either salvage, PFF, or engine rebuilder, which was an oem option for that year model anyway, and install it, the 2.8 ecm, fuel pump, exhaust system, and radiator. A good bit quicker than a 2.5 and only a little less fuel efficient.

6. Cut your losses now and get rid of the car.

Those are the options you have. It's that cut & dried.

Observations.
The Fiero Bug bites-we scratch. Buying any used car is a gamble, and buying one nearly 20 yrs old that has been sitting up is even more of one. I don't recall what you initially paid for the car (or if you said), but for the sake of discussion, let's say it was $700. You probably have another $200-$300 in water pump, valve cover gasket, egr valve, temp sensor, alternator, tools, cosumables, Tax Title Lic etc. And it isn't running yet. You are looking at a minimum $150 up to, say $1500 to get it running reliably. A lot of money huh? But look at it like this.
You've stated you want it as a daily driver. I'm guessing you intend for it to take you back and forth to work. That car will enable you to make your salary*. It will enable you to go on vacations or to Fiero events. If need be, it will take you and your loved ones to the doctor. It will get your groceries. It will be a source of pride and enjoyment for yrs to come. It, in all liklihood, will become a sanctuary of sorts for you to toy with when you need time to sort out the crap of everyday life. It will be just plain fun to drive. You will be unique as there just aren't that many Fieros around.

Now, how much is all that worth? Can't put a price on it can you?

*I bring up the salary part because a lot of people don't look at vehicles in this light. I bought a Jeep Cherokee 4cyl automatic 4wd in 1996 with 85,000 miles on it. Paid $1700 for it. I had some problems with it, but not many. It faithfully took me back and forth to work everday until last December. I won't say how much I made in those 8 yrs, but it was many times more than $1700. Sold it right before Christmas with 270,000 miles on it. Now, we are a Fiero only family. 2 of them.

You are going to have to have a car anyway-may as well be one that is a source of enjoyment and pride. The $ you spend on it now may seem like a lot, but in the long run, it's money well invested IMO.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 04-10-2005).]

btw, I would go ahead and pull the thermostat out and then drain all the coolant out now. If coolant is leaking into the combustion area as it seems to be, it will eventually work it's way past the rings and antifreeze can do bad things to rod and main bearings.

Maryjane, your observations and stated options are right on point. Here's what I've decided:

1) I bought the car to be a daily driver and intended on getting it fixed to be able to actually drive it.

2) The car has more sentimental value to me than just the sum of the receipts. LOL I specifically wanted a Fiero because I like the cars and wanted to be able to do some work on it myself.

3) Buying a used engine from a yard here is, IMHO, putting me in the same situation that I'm currently faced with now since I won't know the history of the engine and would have to actually test it out over a period of time to find out what's wrong or right with it. I'd essentially end up replacing the starter, alternator, EGR valve, water pump, etc., etc., anyway, whether it was today or a couple of months from now---unless there was already significant work done to it or it had been kept in pristine condition.

4) I'm actually enjoying working on the car myself. My only bit of frustration was in the fact that I wasn't expecting to have to do all of this right at the outset, but in a way, I'm glad to have done it and gotten it over with. I've only spent about $1600 total so far, and that includes about $400 for parts, $600 for the car, $265 in taxes, title, registration, transfer fees, $105 in insurance and another $100 for labor (my mechanic mentor) and $100 for accessories. Given that breakdown, I'm pretty happy with my baby and think that after I'm done with this, I'll still come in well under $2000 and have a great-running, pretty cool little ride to make my commutes that much more enjoyable.

Your step-by-step directions were very helpful and I've printed them out and am taking them out to the car to use as I begin the "journey" into further engine repair. LOL

Thanks again for everyone who gave me some input and guidance, it was very much appreciated. I'll post pics and an update once I'm done later today. I've already found a machinist (decided to take your advice JazzMan and Ogre, hehe) to take it to tomorrow and have it resurfaced, cleaned and checked out.

I think I should be finished with the whole project by tomorrow afternoon or Tuesday morning at the latest. I'm going to take my time and not rush it so I can make sure I do it right.

Thanks and I'll let you guys know how it went!

--Tress

BTW--I started the car up yesterday afternoon and there was no more billowing white smoke. There was moisture coming from the exhaust, so I'm pretty sure it's the head gasket that needs to be replaced.

[This message has been edited by Miss-Tress007 (edited 04-10-2005).]

it may not be as bad as the worst-case scenario. i thought i had a cracked head, but it was only warped . NAPA magnafluxed and milled my duke head for $35. so you may be lucky and get off light. while you've got the head off, inspect the bores for scoring, rust and out-of-round (more fancy tools), see if the pistons wiggle in the bore. look at the tops of the pistons to see if they're stamped for an overbore. i dont suppose you ran a compression test before all this trouble started?

do use a new gasket, do use new head bolts, do put sealant on the bolts going into the water jacket, do use a torque wrench to put the head back on.

If you plan on keeping the car for a long time, doing lots of mods, Id invest in a new long block. Then you know what you have, all covered by a warranty (Jasper gives you 75,000 miles last I got) . Its not any harder to install the new one that a used one. I wouldnt expect any trans troubles with a stick on a 4 cyl. Maybe check the clutch while its out, replace if it looks questionable and your good for many years of driving. With a good drivetrain, all the other stuff to fix is easy.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: a. Remove the neg battery cable. b. Remove the air cleaner assy. c. Since you are good with a digital camera, take lots of detailed pics of the wiring and vacum routing. d. For me, it's easier to pull the head with the intake manifold attached. You don't have to remove the alternator that way to get acess to the intake to cyl head bolts, but you may want to because of the alternator bracket. e. Remove the spark plug wires from the plugs, after numbering each one. f. Remove the exhaust manifold bolts. Careful with these, they've been in there a long time and may break off if you just try to unscrew them with brute force. The manifold will hang off to the front, no need to unbolt it from the cat pipe. g. Remove any wire loom retainers bolted to the cylinder head. h. Remove the connector for the temp sensor and fan switch that screws into the head. (may not apply on an 88.) i. Remove the egr valve--again. j. remove the valve cover--again. k. Remove the rocker arm retainer bolts. Do not remove the push rod guides or pushrods yet. l. Get a small pasteboard box, like a shoe box and poke holes in it with a pencil. Number 1 thru 8. Remove the push rods one at a time and keep them in order in the numbered holes. Do the same with the guides. m. Remove the dogbone-again. n. Look on the far right end of the cylinder head and see if there is a plastic wire cover. Remove it if your engine uses it. o. Drain the coolant-all of it. p. Remove the coolant hoses that interact with the cyl head/thermostat housing. q. Remove the cylinder head bolts. Again, be carefull. They break. r. Look to be sure everything is disconected. Brackets, wire conectors etc.You should be able to run your hand 360 degrees around the cylinder head without stopping. s. On the end of the cylinder head, you will see an area where you can fit a prybar under a lip. This is where you wil want to pry the head from the block. t. When it pops up, lift the entire thing straight up and set it off to the side. u. Right now, wipe any coolant that may be in the cylinders clean. Dry it well and coat the cylinders with clean oil. They will rust in no time in the NOLA humidity. Inspect the cylinder walls for extreme scratches or gouges. v. Remove the intake if still attached to the head. Take the head to an engine machine shop for rebuilding/inspecting as suggested above. w. Drain the oil. It is likely now contaminated with coolant. x. While the intake is out of the way, inspect the lifter cover on the side of the block for signs of leaking. Now is the time to change the gasket and seals around the bolts/studs while you can get to easily. Also look at the oil pressure sender for signs of leakage. Again-now is the time. I'm sure I've forgotten something, but almost out of letters anyway.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Options That car will enable you to make your salary*. It will enable you to go on vacations or to Fiero events. If need be, it will take you and your loved ones to the doctor. It will get your groceries. It will be a source of pride and enjoyment for yrs to come. It, in all liklihood, will become a sanctuary of sorts for you to toy with when you need time to sort out the crap of everyday life. It will be just plain fun to drive. You will be unique as there just aren't that many Fieros around. Now, how much is all that worth? Can't put a price on it can you?

That was beautiful... I feel like going out and giving my Fieros big hugs.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Not sure what one would run from a salvage yard, but I've seen them advertised in the PFF mall for $200.

I was one of those who advertised an 88 4 cylinder engine. I removed it to swap in a 6 cylinder. It ran like a top, and I almost couldn't give the damned thing away. Finally sold it locally to a guy for installation in an 87.

quote Buy a good running 2.5 complete as you want from Ed Parks. (assuming he has one laying around)

I can second this. I've known Ed for years. He stands behind what he does. The ideal thing would be to take your car to him and have him install another engine and get the bugs out of it while it's there.

quote Buy a 2.8-from either salvage, PFF, or engine rebuilder, which was an oem option for that year model anyway, and install it, the 2.8 ecm, fuel pump, exhaust system, and radiator. A good bit quicker than a 2.5 and only a little less fuel efficient.

This is how my little coupe became a 6 cylinder. I bought a wrecked Formula and transplanted the drivetrain into my coupe.
Unfortunately, the V-6 was very, very tired. Used engines don't always work out.
(That's how mine became a 3.4, but that's a topic for a whole 'nother thread.)

Sounds like you've already chosen a course of action. I wish you the best of luck.

Edit caus I kant tipe.

------------------
Raydar
88 3.4 coupe...........

Coming soon...
88 Formula, presently under the knife.
Read Nealz Nuze!

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 04-10-2005).]

Hang in there. Soon you'll have a new car and be totally impoverished. Its just part of the Fiero game. I avoid all of these problems by leaving mine in the driveway and just looking longingly at it when I get in my Ford van. Seriously, the car is, as a lot of folks mentioned in other threads, "almost 20 years old" and in that respect is about like all other 20 year old cars.

If I can be of some service, I live on the northshore and have already rebuilt my motor on my 86 2m4.

The MOST important thing is having the head checked and using NEW headbolts. Buying a rebuilt head, if that is your issue, would be the most prudent thing to do. Most places have some type of warranty and being that I work at a auto parts store I can check out the prices for you.

You may want to get a timing cover seal and change this while you are at it. As far as the work, the hardest part of the job is not breaking the exhaust bolts on the head when removing the the exhaust manifold.

Another thing to consider is how many miles is on the engine. For the price of a good engine (probably around 1200 to 1800) you can drop your old engine out swap out some tin and go back in and have it done in a couple of days if you have access to a lift or some shop equipment.

If you would like some consultation on the job just let me know and I will be glad to meet up with you and whoever you have to help you.

BTW, buy some PB Blaster, anti-sieze as well as some medium strength loctite for the bolts and nuts that you are going to be taking off and on if you planning to do this job yourself. TORQUE EVERYTHING THAT HAS TORQUE SETTINGS. IF IT DOESN'T LOOK RIGHT REPLACE IT.

Trust me you will thank yourself down the road if you ever have to dis-assemble the parts again.

------------------
People who say "I would rather push a ford then drive anything else" usually do.

Replacing a head is not a job for anyone new to cars. Thre are so many things your untrained eye will miss and as mentioned if the engine has cooked many times before it is probably already toast, or not far off it. The rebuilt engine is the ONLY sensible option in this scenario otherwise you are just going to be throwing your money away. Take the advice of those with the experience above in this thread or you WILL regret it later.

------------------

I would suggest before taking the time to put it apart is run a compression test first. It would at least point you in the right direction if the head gasket is good or not or you have another problem.

Tim

please take and post pics of your progress. we may see something to help ya out. Ive got 2 2.5 dis engines that you are more than welcome to have. one is a 87 that has about 104,000 miles. bad thing is I'm in central Ky. and New Orleans are a bit of distance apart. good luck and anyone here will try to help ya along the way. remeber that anything you got for this motor will work on another 2.5.-B-

------------------
88 coupe 4.9 Izusu 5-speed Rockcrawl chip. True duels.No A/C .KYB GR-2 on all 4 corners Built to run.

[This message has been edited by 2-tone (edited 04-11-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Miss-Tress007: 3) Buying a used engine from a yard here is, IMHO, putting me in the same situation that I'm currently faced with now since I won't know the history of the engine and would have to actually test it out over a period of time to find out what's wrong or right with it. I'd essentially end up replacing the starter, alternator, EGR valve, water pump, etc., etc., anyway, whether it was today or a couple of months from now---unless there was already significant work done to it or it had been kept in pristine condition.

Hmmm......I've been in this siituation before. We "all" hope that it is just a blown head and nothing more. Remember, what you replace on the top will some be needed on the bottoms. I too replaced my heads on my old 2.8 and 4-5 months later it spun a bearing (bottom end). It was then that I decided to walk away for 6 months and replaced it with a N*.

In the meantime it wouldn't hurt if your mentor paid a visit to the guy who sold the car. Bring a blunt metal object with you or some pointed steel metal boots, hehehe.

quote Originally posted by madcurl: Hmmm......I've been in this siituation before. We "all" hope that it is just a blown head and nothing more. Remember, what you replace on the top will some be needed on the bottoms. I too replaced my heads on my old 2.8 and 4-5 months later it spun a bearing (bottom end). It was then that I decided to walk away for 6 months and replaced it with a N*. In the meantime it wouldn't hurt if your mentor paid a visit to the guy who sold the car. Bring a blunt metal object with you or some pointed steel metal boots, hehehe.

mental note****** Keep blunt metal objects and pointed steel boots away from madcurl! hahaha

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

I got the head off with no problem--I've been outside working on the car since about 10:30am and got the head off at 2:00pm. I took my time doing it and labeled everything and took lots of pics.

I gotta run. I'm about to go over to the machinist to have the head checked out (I think they close at 5pm, so I gotta hurry up) and then pick up a couple of other gaskets for the intake and exhaut manifolds (from AutoZone of course). I'll post pics and an update later tonight.

Hopefully I'll be posting pics of me driving "The Hottie" down Bourbon Street! hehe

I'll be sure to give you all details on everything and thank you all properly later tonight.

Thanks again!

--Tress

BTW---I managed to get the oil cover off and drained the oil (which was chocolate milk color and full of water), but I can't seem to get the oil filter off. Any suggestions? I've got a torque wrench and a breaker bar (the big socket wrench thing that you use to get the tough bolts off). Do I need something else?

[This message has been edited by Miss-Tress007 (edited 04-11-2005).]