my car:
86se V6, chopped WS6 springs, kyb's polly front sway par bushings(greaseable) and polly endlinks suspension is all rubber in good shape still
tires are 16" Kuhmo Ecsta 712's in 225-50-16
car rides pretty nice little harsh and a tad bouncy because of the chopped WS6 springs, but by all means "tollerable"
the car handles real well, i can throw it arround about any corner i want at about any speed i want, and it will take it... with the exception of what i think is understeer i will get to a point lets say anout 40 mph and i go to throw the car arround a 90* corner (like a city block corner)
and the front end will just slide and not want to turn even though the front wheel is cranked

obviously the front end is signifigantly lighter than the rear,
how do i make the front end stick better?
will a rear sway bar change the car enough to make the front end not "push"

i have no intentiones of converting over to full polly i just want to make the front end not slide as much when im bieng really hard on takieng corners

i happen to have 2 stock 84-87 front bars hanging on the garage wall, what would my car react like if i installed one of the bars on the rear?

i also am not too much intrested in spending $100+ for a larger front bar
any thoughts/ help is greatly appreaciated

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Rich AIM: ONE FAST 2M8:
if you appreciate my help show me more green on my bar

white 86se daily driver
Gold 86se 355 SBC,
92 BMW 325i

no absolute way to say, but I think you will like it ALOT. Go ahead and throw it on, if ya dont like it, its easy enough to remove.

i liked mine till i *ehhem* rode the cradle mounts for the swaybar .. still havent gotten them replaced , maybe i'll do THAT today ... hmmmmm definetly helps handing but im not a guru with all that so, i just know it works hehe.

Post 1000 .. yay! haha

[This message has been edited by Weponhead (edited 06-18-2005).]

Your rear sway bar will make the nose tuck in more in a corner. Good chance at some point the back end will break loose unexpectedly until you get used to it. You will likely want to play with camber after you get it on. That is a bit of a science.

With your springs chopped, one thing to remember, if you add 1.5" to the bottom in sway bar brackets, you will have less clearance. I would check the driveway entry and other "bumps" you routinely go over and figure out what clearance you need.

I'm putting a front Fiero bar on the back this season, but I don't have clearance issues.

Arn

good point,
my rear isnt as low as the front but...i have 4-1/4" clearance on the middle of the cradle (lowest point), and about 3.75" on the right side where the exhaust comes back (ocelot from the fiero store) the exhaust has been on for a few years and im not impressed with the quality in how rusty the pipe is already so i dont think i can do much in adjusting the exhaust pipe now,

im actually kinda pissed off at the quality in the ocelot pipeing, i even painted it with hight temp paint before installed and it still looks like sh!t

If you put a bar on the rear, I would, at the minimum, put wider tires on the rear too. Or add a bigger bar to the front.
One of the guys in our club used the same size bar on the rear of his car and also had the same size tires front and rear, and spun twice in one outing. One 180 and one full 360. This was during RFTH, and was in the rain, but you get the idea. He *did* have stock uncut springs, though.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 06-18-2005).]

Definantly do a swaybar upgrade! You will not be disappointed! I installed 1 inch front bar and the rear sway bar from the fiero store and WOW ! The car feels more stable in turns, and it definantly increases your ability to corner harder. I have stock (possibly original equipment ) springs and shocks and the car is like its on rails definantly worth the money In my opinion. No fiero should be without these parts!

[This message has been edited by FIEROPHREK (edited 06-18-2005).]

You also might want to change the front to rear balance of the car a bit to improve this situation. You can do this by relocating the battery to the front compartment.

I didn't see it mentioned, but adding a rear sway bar will reduce understeer. The inside front tire won't lift as much in the turns, which will increase front traction. Just keep in mind that by the same token, the inside rear tire will lift more in the turns, which will reduce rear traction.

After installing a rear sway bar, you'll have to be extra careful driving in the wet. The rear end will be more likely to break loose without warning on wet roads. Also make sure to NEVER get onto the brakes in a turn when the road is wet. The results could be disastrous.

But I think you'll really like the dry handling, after you get it "dialled in". You can fine tune the oversteer/understeer balance with different end link bushing materials (rubber, urethane, etc) and/or adding washers into the end links to make them tighter. I would suggest starting off with urethane end link bushings on the front bar and rubber in the rear. That should yield relatively neutral handling (depending on other suspension parts). If you still have understeer, then trade up to urethane end link bushings on the rear bar.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 06-18-2005).]

thanks for the info guys, i think ill try the bar, maybe next weekend or so, but i will just put polly on the rear waht do you mean by adding washers to the endlinks to stiffen it up?
these are the links i will go by for the install

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/061398.html

i hope my exhaust isnt too low for the bar, (that would piss me off )

im also thinking of moving the battery up front aswell, the battery i have now is REAL small, and im thinking of replaceing it with a yellow top optima,
i was amazed at how much more powerfull stuff got im my other fiero when i put one in , even the windows go up faster

thanks again.... +'s to all who dont alredy have them

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Rich AIM: ONE FAST 2M8:
if you appreciate my help show me more green on my bar

white 86se daily driver
Gold 86se 355 SBC,
92 BMW 325i

I meant adding extra washers between the end link bushings, so when you tighten the end link bolts, the bushings get squished more. It'll make them tighter. But squishing the bushings too much will ruin them.

ahhh ya, cool good idea

A) How does the car "feel" when the front end is pushing? Does it stutter across the pavement?

B) Try coming in hot and being on the brakes during turn-in. This will load the front tires more and give you more turn-in traction. Don't stay on the brakes obvsiously. Once the car is rotating, control understeer with the throttle. Unless you get overly zealous, applying throttle will increase understeer.

C) KYB's are junk.

D) Handling is all about combination. Adding one part will affect the way the rest of the system works.

E) What are your alignment specs?

Fieros do like to understeer. GM set them up that way.

A) How does the car "feel" when the front end is pushing? Does it stutter across the pavement?

iot will kinda chatter as the front tires are tyring to hook up

B) Try coming in hot and being on the brakes during turn-in. This will load the front tires more and give you more turn-in traction. Don't stay on the brakes obvsiously. Once the car is rotating, control understeer with the throttle. Unless you get overly zealous, applying throttle will increase understeer.

either way its like im reaching the point where my tires cant grab any more... ya know?

C) KYB's are junk.

i KNOW, i hate them, on my V8 car i have eibachs and koni's abd the car rides MUCH better, the konis are GOD, the eibach's just arnt low enough for me though

D) Handling is all about combination. Adding one part will affect the way the rest of the system works.

ya

E) What are your alignment specs?

alignment is at factory spec ..right on , what ever that is just has 4 wheel alignment done 3 weeks ago

Fieros do like to understeer. GM set them up that way

Piece of advice.....for what it's worth. (I raced in various classes and cars for over 20 years) If you intend to drive it like a race car, then set it up as if it was 1. You make 1 change at a time......anymore than that and you won't know which change helped, and which 1 hindered. You can take 2 of the same type of car and the setups can be very different. It's the proper, and only sensible approach to take.....enough said!

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88 Fiero GT
85 Fiero SE
What’s Behind You Is Of Little Consequence

I still have to get around to installing my rear sway bar... sometimes I have a habit of taking corners REAL fast and I love accelerating through the corners... so I'm kind of scarred of spinning. I have already once and it wasnt pretty.

I have KYB's with my eibachs and I love them right now. I've never tried the Konis so I can't really comment. All I know is that my upgrades so far are much better than stock.

quote Originally posted by Strange Brew: Piece of advice.....for what it's worth. (I raced in various classes and cars for over 20 years) If you intend to drive it like a race car, then set it up as if it was 1. You make 1 change at a time......anymore than that and you won't know which change helped, and which 1 hindered. You can take 2 of the same type of car and the setups can be very different. It's the proper, and only sensible approach to take.....enough said!

Totally OT, I know, but Strange Brew is one of the best movies ever!

Good advice about suspension adjustments, too. I love my rear bar. It always felt like the back end was leaning over harder than the front in a hard turn, but with the bar the back bites in too and it rides on rails (with decent tires). But we all know that Fieros will pull a 180 or 360 if given the chance, and the rear bar will allow the car to spin a lot more easily if you really break it loose.

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: After installing a rear sway bar, you'll have to be extra careful driving in the wet. The rear end will be more likely to break loose without warning on wet roads. Also make sure to NEVER get onto the brakes in a turn when the road is wet. The results could be disastrous.

Perhaps I'm all wet here......but it has allways been my understanding that a car that handles well in the wet....handles well.... period. Assuming of course that your using street tires.

I may be nuts, but I enjoy wet roads because you can feel the slip angles happening at safe speeds. I think that testing in the rain, is the safest way to do it. Am I nuts ?

quote Originally posted by Yellow-88: Perhaps I'm all wet here......but it has always been my understanding that a car that handles well in the wet....handles well.... period. Assuming of course that your using street tires. I may be nuts, but I enjoy wet roads because you can feel the slip angles happening at safe speeds. I think that testing in the rain, is the safest way to do it. Am I nuts ?

This is the easiest way I can explain this.

Sways bars amplify traction. They change the handling characteristics of a car.

If you lack traction as in the rain there is nothing for the sway bars to work with and the car will act like it has WAY TO BIG of sway bars on it and drift like there is no tomorrow. If you take the sway bars off of a race car that is set up to run slicks on all 4 corners. It will KILL the handling of a stock Fiero.

You need to match sway bars to tire size, and tire size to driving style and driving style to sway bar size.

Oops got to run, be back in a bit to finish the post.

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85GT 5spd MSD Everything,4.9 With Nitrous. www.captfiero.com

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero: This is the easiest way I can explain this. Sways bars amplify traction. They change the handling characteristics of a car. If you lack traction as in the rain there is nothing for the sway bars to work with and the car will act like it has WAY TO BIG of sway bars on it and drift like there is no tomorrow. If you take the sway bars off of a race car that is set up to run slicks on all 4 corners. It will KILL the handling of a stock Fiero. You need to match sway bars to tire size, and tire size to driving style and driving style to sway bar size.

To the best of my understanding, anti-roll bars increase the roll stiffness at there end of the longitudinal roll axis. Changing roll stiffness at one end affects the other because it’s working on the same axis. A roll bar change can redistribute grip, but can’t magnify it. Wet road surface acts to reduce grip on all four corners equally, so what the driver feels is greatly magnified. I perfer to "test" at 40 MPH instead of 90.

To the best of my understanding, increasing roll stiffness will increase the slip angles at that end. Therefore, a larger bar at the rear will in theory, decrease understeer. Yes....all components act together. "Balance glasshopper"..!!

quote Originally posted by Yellow-88: A roll bar change can redistribute grip, but can’t magnify it.

I'm not so sure about that. An anti-roll bar will reduce the roll angle of the car, and in doing so reduce the change in camber. Having a camber closer to 0 in a corner should increase traction.

quote Originally posted by 88gtNewb: I'm not so sure about that. An anti-roll bar will reduce the roll angle of the car, and in doing so reduce the change in camber. Having a camber closer to 0 in a corner should increase traction.

Yes, you are correct. Camber changing from zero will reduce grip. The reason that the factory camber specs are negative is that camber moves toward positive as the spring is compressed. The idea is that as the chassis rolls, the outside tire moves closer to zero camber. Increasing roll stiffness decreases camber change. On that note, reduced roll angle requires less static negative camber. Personally, I run just a whiff of negative camber, and keep the roll angle at less than 2 deg. Fore/aft bar balance can be tuned with adjustable end links, on an overly stiff rear bar.

I can see where Yellow-88 is coming from. Testing in the wet will amplify any handling quirks in the suspension, making it easier to identify and troubleshoot them. Testing your suspension at low speed in a wet, empty parking lot is alot safer (in my opinion) than testing at high speed on the highway.

But regardless, you still have to be more careful driving on wet roads than dry roads.

quote Originally posted by $Rich$: A) How does the car "feel" when the front end is pushing? Does it stutter across the pavement? iot will kinda chatter as the front tires are tyring to hook up

Am I the only one who's picking up on this?

The front tires stuttering/chattering across the pavement is a sure sign of WORN OUT control arm bushings. Nothing else produces this symptom.
I was really wondering what made you think that your rubber bushings were in good shape. Basically, at this point in the car's history, unless it has extremely low miles, the rubber bushings are 100% SHOT.
Install poly (if you must) or UHMW (greatly preferred) front control arm bushings and your problem will go away.
Get UHMW bushings for a reasonable price at www.8shark.com

hmmmm, what is the stuff from 8 shark VS polly?

by good condition i guess i mean that my car rides conciderably well, and is not clunky or rattley its nice and solid, even for how low it is

quote Originally posted by $Rich$: chopped WS6 springs, car rides pretty nice little harsh and a tad bouncy because of the chopped WS6 springs, but by all means "tollerable" the car handles real well, i can throw it arround about any corner i want at about 40 mph and i go to throw the car arround a 90* corner and the front end will just slide and not want to turn even though the front wheel is cranked i happen to have 2 stock 84-87 front bars hanging on the garage wall, what would my car react like if i installed one of the bars on the rear?

Just a thought, but some 84 bars were larger than the later 84-87 bars. You might check to see if one is larger? You cut the springs. Did you rotate the upper balljoints to change the camber? If you had it aligned after first putting the cut springs they may have settled and need re-alignment.
Wasn't there a change to the original alignment specs from GM?

quote Originally posted by Will:Handling is all about combination. Adding one part will affect the way the rest of the system works. What are your alignment specs? Fieros do like to understeer. GM set them up that way.

...and Will pointed out the control arm bushings are old. I can't imagine how rubber that old can still be 'good'. Understeer is to keep common drivers from easily getting into trouble driving a car hard.

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: Adding a rear sway bar will reduce understeer. The inside front tire won't lift as much in the turns, which will increase front traction. Just keep in mind that the inside rear tire will lift more in the turns, which will reduce rear traction. You'll have to be extra careful driving in the wet. The rear end will be more likely to break loose without warning on wet roads. Also make sure to NEVER get onto the brakes in a turn when the road is wet. I think you'll really like the dry handling, after you get it "dialled in".

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: Your rear sway bar will make the nose tuck in more in a corner. Good chance at some point the back end will break loose unexpectedly until you get used to it. You will likely want to play with camber after you get it on.With your springs chopped, one thing to remember, if you add 1.5" to the bottom in sway bar brackets, you will have less clearance. Arn

quote Originally posted by Strange Brew:Piece of advice... If you intend to drive it like a race car, then set it up as if it was 1. You make 1 change at a time......anymore than that and you won't know which change helped, and which 1 hindered. It's the proper, and only sensible approach to take!

quote Originally posted by Yellow-88: Perhaps I'm all wet here....but it has allways been my understanding that a car that handles well in the wet....handles well.... period. Assuming of course that your using street tires. I think that testing in the rain, is the safest way to do it. Am I nuts ?

I remember terms like 'sudden terminal oversteer' used by Herb Adams when modifying the Fiero suspension by cutting springs and adding a sway bar (there was more, but these were the same being dealt with here) but he was racing on a track. I am suggesting that keeping your mods to work best in street driving conditions is the most responsible thing to do with a daily driver. Will has a sway bar on the back of his car that uses brackets mounted to the strut like the 88's and it faces the bar in a different direction than Randy Agee's website referenced above. Did someone mention wider tires(rims) in the back (like the 88's?). Of course this means faster speeds before reaching terminal oversteer and probably worse than doing so at lower speeds. No one seems to like KYB's and I've read a lot of discussion on tire choices too.
Gerald Stvorik's UHMW bushings are 'harder' than poly and self-lubricating so they don't bind and squeak. If you are going to throw more stress on the rear suspension, you'll need to stiffen those parts, maybe the cradle bushings.
The conservative approach to modifying the suspension always gets a voice, but aren't there some 'universal' things to address with the Fiero? Moving the battery? Bushing upgrades? (I've come to the conclusion that polyurethane in the front control arms isn't that critical, but it sure was easy for me to do.) Tires and rims, shocks? Isn't there some given improvements to start with?

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John DuRette
Custom 85 ; 87 Coupe in the driveway. "Kinda makes you nostalgic for a Members Only jacket"

I put one on my 85 GT, it changed it a lot - it used to spin around easily, after I put the bar on, it wouldn't spin around as easily, but gave less warning when it was going to.

If ya have new tires, ya tend to spin 'round less.

I reccommend getting one. I got mine from the Fiero Store.

[This message has been edited by FieroRumor (edited 06-21-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Yellow-88: To the best of my understanding, anti-roll bars increase the roll stiffness at there end of the longitudinal roll axis. Changing roll stiffness at one end affects the other because it’s working on the same axis. A roll bar change can redistribute grip, but can’t magnify it. Wet road surface acts to reduce grip on all four corners equally, so what the driver feels is greatly magnified. I perfer to "test" at 40 MPH instead of 90. To the best of my understanding, increasing roll stiffness will increase the slip angles at that end. Therefore, a larger bar at the rear will in theory, decrease understeer. Yes....all components act together. "Balance glasshopper"..!!

My understanding is similar to yours. By reducing the roll of the vehicle less weight is transferred to the outer wheels. More weight applied to a wheel actually decreases the grip of that wheel so by limiting the weight transfer the wheel is able to maintain a higher degree of grip.

Nolan

[This message has been edited by Sourmug (edited 06-21-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Sourmug: By reducing the roll of the vehicle less weight is transferred to the outer wheels. More weight applied to a wheel actually decreases the grip of that wheel so by limiting the weight transfer the wheel is able to maintain a higher degree of grip.

I believe the amount of weight transfer due to body roll is actually quite small. A stiffer swaybar will increase the weight transfer to the outside tire of that end. But that also results in a proportionate decrease of transferred weight in the other end of the car. So bigger swaybars actually decrease the grip at their end and increase the grip at the other (negating any gain from reduced camber change)

quote Originally posted by 88gtNewb: I believe the amount of weight transfer due to body roll is actually quite small. A stiffer swaybar will increase the weight transfer to the outside tire of that end. But that also results in a proportionate decrease of transferred weight in the other end of the car. So bigger swaybars actually decrease the grip at their end and increase the grip at the other (negating any gain from reduced camber change)

Our roll angles ARE very small, so our weight transfer is small. We weigh just a bit more than an untra-lite NASCAR, and our polar moment is down there with the exotics. Fieros are serious.

To really see the “bar” thing in your face, remove just one, than the other. Damp parking lots ARE great test pads.

quote Originally posted by Yellow-88: Our roll angles ARE very small, so our weight transfer is small.

Roll angle has very little to do with weight transfer. The vast majority of weight transfer is a function of track width, CG height and lateral G.

UHMW
is it harder or softer than polly?

seems spendy, $89 for upper front $69 for lower front i think i might do polly maybe just the front for now

[This message has been edited by $Rich$ (edited 06-22-2005).]

quote Originally posted by $Rich$: my car: 86se V6, chopped WS6 springs, car rides pretty nice little harsh and a tad bouncy because of the chopped WS6 springs, but by all means "tollerable" the car handles real well, and the front end will just slide and not want to turn even though the front wheel is cranked obviously the front end is signifigantly lighter than the rear,

"chopped WS6 springs, car rides pretty nice little harsh and a tad bouncy because of the chopped WS6 springs, but by all means "tollerable" "
------Oh dear, you cut the springs and it's probably hitting the bumpstops. A street car should not ride "bouncy".
"the car handles real well, .....and the front end will just slide and not want to turn even though the front wheel is cranked"
-------No, it doesn't handle well, see above.
Here's my two bits, then.
If the car is hitting the bumpstops repeatedly in a corner, it can go into a stick- slip condition as the tire is cycled on and off the bumpstops. If the outside front tire gets buried into the bumpstop, the effective spring rate will go to infinity and you'll lose the front end in a big way. Duff shocks, or shocks that are not working in their design "stroke" range could cause a chatter condition also. If you don't know how long the bushings have been in the car, just replace them.
Make sure your ball joints are up to snuff. When I bought my '88, it had bad BJs. In a bumpy corner, the front end would patter wide in the corner and the steering wheel shook back and forth. Something like a "tank slapper" on a motorcycle. Not fun, but--interesting.
Anyway, my first guess is that you have worn suspension parts.
I don't think the bushing scenario works for a chatter condition. More for a wobble-swerve-crash scenario.
My second pick, is that you've lowered your car onto the bumpstops and are now trying to drive it on less than perfect roads. I don't think lowering works well for cars that don't have enough suspension to begin with. Unless you only drive it on perfectly smooth roads, or you are not very picky about how your car handles.
I'll kinda second an opinion made above-- Avoid using a rear sway bar if you can, if you can get away with it.
It can cause traction problems with lots of power coming off tight corners (especially with open diffs). But you've lowered your car, so it may be mandatory-- to help keep your rear suspension from bottoming. Also avoid making your car handle "neutral". Shoot for a little understeer.
Again, just my 2 bits,
Cheers,
Brian

There are a lot of books written on this but I'll try to add a few things to make sense of all this.

First, sway-bars... roll bars... are anti-roll bars and they do just that. They reduce the roll angle of the car in cornering. When the roll angle is reduced, the camber change is reduced. If you had rigid anti-roll bars (no flex at all) then you would have no roll and no camber change. Except for sidewall flex, the tires would stay flat unless 2 wheels come off the ground. (Bars that stiff would be undriveable).

Next, when your car goes around a corner weight is transferred from the inside wheels to the outside wheels. An anti-roll bar affects the way the weight is transferred to the outside wheels. Imagine that you had a rigid rear anti-roll bar and no “bar” at the front. The car would roll onto the front outside wheel and all of the weight transfer would go to the front wheel. With more weight on the wheel, the more traction it will have. So in your case a rear anti-roll bar would reduce your understeer… but don’t install it just yet.

If you put a “bar that is too stiff on the rear, not enough weight will be transferred to the outside rear… that gets you into oversteer. Of course the reverse applies if you put a stiff bar on the front… more weight is transferred to the rear and less to the front and you get understeer. So, as you can see it is a matter of balance. (Keep in mind that I’m ignoring camber change for the moment… )

But we are ahead of ourselves. The springs on the car have as much… if not more to do with “roll” as the “bars”. A car with stiff springs will roll less than a car with soft springs. In fact if it didn’t give a harsh ride, you could control roll with springs. Put 2000 pound springs at all four corners of the car and it won’t roll at all.

The same thing about balance applies to springs as it does to “bars”. By that I mean, if you put really stiff springs at the rear, most of the weight will be transferred to the outside front in a corner… along with the oversteer. And just like in the case of the “bars”, soft springs on the rear will result in understeer. So again, it is a matter of balance.

If I have read this thread correctly, you cut your front springs to lower the car. Cutting springs not only shortens them, but also increases the spring rate. So you have increased the spring rate on the front of the car… and have probably increased the “factory” understeer. If you cut both front and rear to lower the car the same amount, then you have changed the spring rates at both ends. How much did the front vs. rear spring rates change? I don’t have a clue, but surely upset the balance. Cutting springs is always a bad idea.

If you’ve followed this so far, you may have already figured out this suspension tuning approach: Soften the “offending” end of the car, or stiffen the non-offending end. So, if a car understeers, soften the front end (or stiffen the rear end.)… if it oversteers, soften the rear end (or stiffen the front end). But there’s still a little more.

Back in the beginning I said that with “bars” (or more specifically less roll) you get less camber change. So in some cases (cars with a lot of camber change in roll) a stiffer “bar” at the front end will give less understeer because the tire stays flat.

So now what!!! Soften the offending end? Stiffen it with a bar for less camber change? The reality is that if a car is understeering (or oversteering) because of bad camber change, then the only thing you can do is go to really stiff “bars” front & rear… and balance the car as best you can.

Except for the really bad camber case, anti-roll bars should only be used for “fine tuning” the handling. Use the springs for majority of the tuning. When we test a new race car (SCCA road race), we don’t install any sway bars until we’ve got the springs so that the car is close to neutral in steady-state cornering. After that we adjust with “bars”… in fact we adjust the bars based on track conditions.

I should note… as has been noted by others here, that all of this is conditional on all of the suspension being in 100% condition… 20 year old rubber bushings, ball joints, etc. does not constitute 100% condition. Anything that wallows around… makes your wheels lean and point in different directions under load will cause bad handling.

quote Originally posted by $Rich$: UHMW is it harder or softer than polly? seems spendy, $89 for upper front $69 for lower front i think i might do polly maybe just the front for now

Ultra high molecular weight polyethylene, UHMW, has been called poor man’s Teflon. Unlike polyurethane, it is almost non-compliant. It has excellent ware characteristics, as has some self-lubricating properties. It should not be used where some flex is required, such as in control arm bushings that are not coaxial. UHMW PE bushings require machined bearing parts to operate correctly. They are for all practical purposes, solid bushings. I have been running them in my 88 front end for 50,000 miles, and have seen no measurable ware. The sub-frame is hard neoprene mounted to isolate the road noise.

quote Originally posted by Yellow-88: Roll angle has everything to do with weight transfer. If there is no roll, there is no weight transfer. Yes…..it is “G” forces working on the CG that causes the roll. It’s the roll that causes the weight transfer.

Roll angle doesn't have a large effect on weight transfer unless the angle is very large or the vehicle is very high, neither of which apply to the Fiero.

There is always weight transfer while cornering (maybe not in a zero roll-stiffness design?). Think of it this way, a car with a completely ridgid suspension would still have weight transfer to the outside tires. You just couldn't see this because there would be no springs to compress.

quote Originally posted by 88gtNewb: Roll angle doesn't have a large effect on weight transfer unless the angle is very large or the vehicle is very high, neither of which apply to the Fiero. There is always weight transfer while cornering (maybe not in a zero roll-stiffness design?). Think of it this way, a car with a completely ridgid suspension would still have weight transfer to the outside tires. You just couldn't see this because there would be no springs to compress.

Let’s imagine a chassis with a CG lower than the roll centers, something I don’t think is possible, except in ones head. Since all forces act on the CG, a lateral force applied to it would roll the chassis toward the inside of the turn. In that hypothetical chassis, the weight would transfer to the inside tires. Am I all wet..??