HI,
As some of you know, I've recently been working to install a 4T65e in my fiero after my 4sp manual
trans failed because it couldn't take the power of my LS1. I've just finished the job and I'm pleased
with how the trans and its controller function.

I'm using a stand-alone after-market trans controller from Powertrain Control Solutions:
http://www.powertraincontrolsolutions.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=4
Since the engine PCM is from a manual trans donor, there is no PCM control communication with
the trans to conflict with the PCS unit. PCS provides software with their unit that lets the user access
trans control parameters to modify shift points and firmness and to store and load several variations
into the trans controller by activating switchable inputs. For example, I've started by using the PCS
4T65e base calibration file which mimics the stock GM trans control. With this "drive" version the
shifts, up and down, are silky smooth, just about unnoticable. Next, I'm going to set up a "sport"
calibration with firmer shifts at higher RPM's and finally, get this, I can set up a calibration for
"true manual" in which the trans will act like a 4sp manual with automatic clutch.

Although the 4T65e is much stronger than the fiero 4sp, it could also be marginal with 350 hp.
I'll be monitoring it carefully and will probably strengthen it with some of the after-market components
that are available (at a cost). Thus far, I've only put in a Quaife differential.

Here are some pics of the trans/engine, the shifter, the PCS progam's monitor screen, and, if I may,
a couple pics of the car.

Note the reverse drive Ford starter to engage the ring gear from over the top of the trans.

The shifter knob has a switch on its side which was intended to lock out overdrive on the '96
Grand Am donor, but can be used to activate the different trans control programs.

Very, very nice. I keep saying to myself, "drop-by Orville's monster garage." Hey Orville, is it me or did you add a side vents? Maybe I was too busy looking at the chop and didn't notice it before.

What version of the 4-spd did you fail? Was it one of the early 4.10 or 3.32 ones, or the later 3.65 V6? What broke on it? How much clearance do you have with the oil pan for the exhaust under the front of the engine? Sorry for all the questions, but I am seriously considering an LS engine swap.

BTW, that car is gorgeous!

Marty

The side scoops weren't there when Dale and I dropped by back in April. Looks nice.

As for the transmission, I know he sheared all the teeth off of second gear during a hard up shift.

Hi Curly,
Did you get my PM?

RacerX11, Fastback 86:
The 4sp was a 3.32 "econo" trans from a '82 citation ( I think). It failed in 2nd with the clutch fully
engaged. After going through 1st, I floored the pedal in 2nd and sheared all the teeth off the gear.
The quartermaster 2-disk clutch contributed to the failure because when it's engaged it permits
absolutely no slippage.

I made the mecham style scoops to get air to the trans cooler.

Oil pan clearance is adequate. No problem with the questions. I think you'll be happy with an
LS1 swap - big job though.

Orville

[This message has been edited by Orville (edited 07-16-2005).]

Wow, that's a nice controller!! The 4T65E in my swap shifts like crap, I'm not sure if it's my fault (wiring) or the transmission. 2 different computers and same results. That thing looks like it would control it much better! One quick 4T65E - related question: What did you use for a trans cooler? I orignally forgot to connect one, until the thing started slipping during a fast run. I've recently connecte my factory in-radiator Fiero one (but the lines are 5/16" and the 4T65E lines are 3/8") and now it's blowing the rubber lines apart almost monthly. The last failure had the (supposedly) transmission-rated 3/8" rubber hose seperate it's layers in at least 3 places, causing giant bubbles which naturally popped and let the fluid out. I wasn't sure if I could use a smaller cooler that would fit behind the (AusFiero Stage II) scoops and still provide enough cooling for the trans. Do you monitor the trans. temperature on the laptop while you're driving? I'm very interested in a possible solution to my extremely frustrating problem! Looks like the cooler you're using may be a perfect solution. Keep up the incredible work!!
edit --- Turns out the burst hose was 100% my fault! The last time I had to fix the hose, the only coupler I could find was a Home Depot barbed brass one. Would have worked fine if I'd rounded down the barbs!!! Turns out (duh!) one of the barbs cut the inside layer of the hose, causing hot high pressure fluid to enter the middle nylon layer, and the outer protective layer wasn't meant to hold pressure. Pop! (lesson learned: don't buy important parts from Home Depot! If you do in an emergency, replace them as soon as you can!) I replaced the spliced together hoses with single pieces of high pressure 5/16" hose, and put a bubble flare in the tranny fitting tubes. Still thinking about the scoop-mounted cooler like Orville!
Bob Williams
Multi-colored '86 Mutt, a work in progress! (3800SC running great! Fixed the bent roof, now I need an intercooler! Yeehaa!)

[This message has been edited by Riceburner98 (edited 07-17-2005).]

Riceburner98,
I'm using a 1 1/2 x 10 1/2 x 14 cooler with a 4 blade 10" fan thermostatically controlled to turn on
at 170 F. It's mounted in front of the passenger side rear wheel well where it barely fits after I did
some metal work. I'm not sure if it's going to cool sufficiciently. I'll be keeping a close watch because
over temperature is an important cause of automatic trans failure. Check this link:
http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=automatic+transmission+temperature&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D70b1ad74d60caeb5%26clickedItem Rank%3D2%26userQuery%3Dautomatic%2Btransmission%2Btemperature%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.tciauto.com%252Fcooling.htm%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSCPTop%26amp% 3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tciauto.com%2Fcooling.htm

Yes, I can monitor the trans fluid temp on the laptop using the PCS program, along with engine coolant
temp, engine rpm, tcc rpm, map, vss, tps, shift select, trans mode select, and some other i/p's and o/p's.

It does look like you may be having an over temp problem. That would explain why your tran slips and
your coolant lines fail. Whether the radiator will cool the trans fluid enough depends an the thermostat
setting and on whether the cooling system can keep up with both the trans and engine cooling. But there
are others on the forum more knowlegeable about this than I am - maybe they'd like to comment?

Orville

Riceburner, when you had rubber hose bursting issues were you using trans cooler-rated hose or reg rubber fuel line? Rubber fuel line won't work in this application, the trans fluid will eat it.

You can use the stock Fiero's 5/16" trans cooler steel lines that are mounted on the chassis and hook these up to the 4T65-E's 3/8" line using premium 5/16" trans cooler hose. You will need to lube the ends of the 5/16" hose up that get connected to 3/8" 4T65-E lines, and it will require some force to get them on, but they will go on and work just fine when properly clamped -- no leaks. However, the stock Fiero's radiator has a design flaw in how the trans cooler is integrated into it. The trans cooler inside the Fiero radiator is located in the inlet tank side of the radiator which means hot coolant from the engine is always going to be dumped onto the trans cooler. Furthermore, the stock trans cooler in the radiator is quite restrictive. My suggestion is if you use the Fiero trans cooler lines I would run an external trans cooler ONLY, bypass the Fiero radiator altogether. Make sure you also use a pretty good size cooler (I suggest something that is about 1/2 the size of the stock Fiero A/C condenser core). Again, make sure you use approved trans cooler hose and high quality clamps. After tightening the clamps down you will also want to recheck their tightness after the car has been driven a couple of times because they might come loose due to heat expansion. In any case, you want to maintain trans fluid temps between 165degF and 185degF.

Orville, which version (HD or non-HD) and year of the 4T65-E are you running? (some years had issues with hard parts). Regardless of year, I can give you some info as to what problems some of the very fast GTP guys are having with these trannys. Besides the diff (you have already replaced yours), the GTP people seem to be snapping chains and input shafts. Of course the chain issue happens because of sheer power put thru this trans and the upgrade is to swap in a single drive chain from a 4T60-E (has to be modified or you can buy a kit). The input shaft issue happens when people remove torque management from the PCM programming and/or make the trans shift too hard. Torque Management basically reduces ignition timing during the shifts to "soften" the abuse the transmission sees. Of course this also cuts power as well. You can work around this by making sure your shifts are not too firm, of course the softer the shifts the more wear on your clutches, so there is a tradeoff.

------------------
power corrupts. absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Custom Computer Tuning | Engine Conversions | Turbocharging | www.gmtuners.com

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 07-16-2005).]

Thanks for the link Orville! I wish I knew how hot my trans. had got in the time I didn't have the cooler attached. I wouldn't be surprised if it had hit 300*. I would definitley have gone for a fluid flush if I hadn't lost 8 qts on the road a day later. Let's hope your cooler works as expected, and the trans holds up to the monster motor!!

quote Originally posted by Orville: The 4sp was a 3.32 "econo" trans from a '82 citation ( I think). It failed in 2nd with the clutch fully engaged. After going through 1st, I floored the pedal in 2nd and sheared all the teeth off the gear. The quartermaster 2-disk clutch contributed to the failure because when it's engaged it permits absolutely no slippage.

I imagine the weaker case on the early style 4 speed contributed to the trani failure. The case could flex and open up clearances between gears which would lead to their failure. Switching to a 3.65 case would have been a better choice, not sure if the econo gears would work in a 3.65 case? The later trani's had added webbing to strengthen them, which you probibly already know.

Great info, Darth, thanks. My trans is a 4T65e HD from a '99 bonneville. Are all the
stock 4T65e HD's the same?

crzyone, Might be, but the case isn't cracked or distorted. I suppose the econo gear
set would go in any fiero 4sp case?

Orville

I imagine they would, the 4:10 gearset can be put into a 3.65 case. The gears want to push eachother apart when they are under load, a weaker case would allow more movement. This would increase the backlash of the gears and put more load closer to the tips of the teeth. Hard for me to explain, but this is why they put extra webbing on the 3.65 muncie cases.

I havn't heard of a case failure on a 3.65 case, just synchros going out with high mileage.

quote Originally posted by Orville: Great info, Darth, thanks. My trans is a 4T65e HD from a '99 bonneville. Are all the stock 4T65e HD's the same? Orville

Essentially, all 4T65-E HD's were the same. The non-HD versions had weaker internals, but were used in anything that didn't have a 3800SC. So as long as your trans came attached to a 3800SC, it is the HD version.

Now, there is some rumors floating around out there about some differences over the years concerning the 65-E HD trannys. According to the GTP community, sometime around 98 or 99 model year GM changed the process in which they machined the input shafts on these trannys. Supposidly, this change made the input shaft weaker which would mean the earlier transmissions have stronger shafts. But like I said, I haven't seen people breaking them unless they are making lots of power and the shifts are harsh. There are aftermarket billet input shafts available but of course they are pricy.

Now the only other thing besides the drive chains and diffs was there was a year range (2-4 years or so) there were issues with a plantery gearset inside the trans. For some reason the gear teeth would break off and grind up, appearantly due to inferior materials being used in manufacturing. I was shown one of these defective units a couple of weeks ago so I know the problem exists. However, I cannot remember the specifics concerning the year range and what models were affected, but I do think both HD and non-HD versions were affected. You might want to consult a local trans shop about this and see if they have any more information.

In any case, I suggest you use premium fluid like Valvoline Max Life ATF Dexron III which I have been told is the best trans fluid out there for use in these trannys. I use it myself but blend about 60% of it with 40% Caterpillar 8T9572-30w hydraulic trans fluid. I was told by a professional hi-perf trans builder in califonia that the CAT fluid has better lubricating properties than Dexron and will extend the life of ALL components inside the trans. However, at 30w it is quite a bit thicker than ATF so it makes the shifts harder as well, especially in colder climates so you may want to you less in your mixing ratio. I believe they also sell a 20w viscosity fluid if you need it for those colder climates. I am using the CAT fluid mixture in ALL of my GM vehicles with no failures or issues.

Good info Will!