“We” the fiero community, really should learn to do our own alignment…..for several reasons. One being the fact that we require higher accuracy than what is generally accepted. Many Fieros use hard bushing, that are VERY sensitive to alignment settings. Many fieros are lowered; making the physical job more difficult than most shops can afford to deal with. Finally, the shear cost and aggravation of dealing with shops, simply isn’t worth it.
Alignment is not difficult to do, and it does not require expensive equipment, but does require some care and paitance.
All three settings, caster, camber, and toe are interrelated. Changing caster will affect both others. Changing camber will affect both others. Changing toe will not affect caster and camber. There is a bit of juggling act to get them were you want them. Doing caster and camber will quickly make you understand why shops just stop when they get somwere within OEM tolerances.
You set et toe last , so I’ll save it for last. Toe is the easiest, and by FAR, is the one you feel most.
Caster and camber are the really hard ones. Please...don't let this scare you
I set both using a 24” level. Here’s the key to measuring angles. A 1 deg angle equals ¼” over 14”. To use that system, it REALLY helps to set the car is perfectly level.
Caster is the most difficult because the centers of the ball joint are hard to locate directly. It does get a good bit easier with nothing in the way, so if you do it when your front end is “naked” you will have a much easer time. By naked, I mean nothing except control arms and knuckles. Clearly, during a front end rebuild, or a serious cleaning, is the best time to do it. In fact, don’t even bother if anything is really worn out. You CANNOT align a worn out chassis. Fortunately, the caster setting will last as long as the new front end parts.
Setting front camber is best done the same way and same time as caster. It’s the second most sensitive after toe. It can be fine tuned on the ground, but if you nail it on the stands, you will be glad you did.
Camber can be easily MEASURED by placing the car on exactly level floor, or 4 pads that are exactly level. A level held vertically tells you your camber setting. My camber gage is a 24” level with bolts located the same distance as the machined surface of the wheels. 14”
Toe is the one you REALLY feel, and the one you will "fine tune", untill you like your settings. For setting toe, the parallel string method is simple to use, and once a centerline mark has been established on your chassis, it takes only minuets to set your strings. The strings are EXATLLY parallel to each other, and EXATLLY parallel to the fore/aft centerline of the chassis. They are positioned at wheel center height, and a convenient distance out board from the wheels. 4 heavy jack stands and 50’ of nylon string work nicely. My center marks are notches cut into the front, and rear bumpers. With a tape hooked into the notches, I can setup the toe strings effortlessly.
The chassis center is a line is a line running the length of the car, exactly between the centerlines of the control arm bushings. You set toe by measuring between the strings, and the machined outer edge of the wheel. The same dimension at the front edge, and the rear edge, is zero toe. A smaller distance at the front than the rear is toe-in. You should do it with the steering wheel locked at dead center. You can roll the car forward and backward, and jounce it a few times to be sure everything is settled. A road test will tell you if your steering wheel is centered. If you drive right back between your strings, you can re-set them in seconds, for a final tune.
Please ask anything that is not clear.
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02:49 PM
PFF
System Bot
LZeitgeist Member
Posts: 5662 From: Raleigh, NC, U.S.A. Registered: Dec 2000
This sounds excellent - I've been avoiding getting alignments done for years because I don't trust the shops to get it right the first time, and I hate having to deal with such things more than once...
Thanks for sharing your expertise!
Question - with the car on jackstands, where do you place the level to determine whether or not the car is sitting properly level before doing the procedures you describe? I'd assume that thin pieces of floor tile or something similar could be used to slightly raise and lower the jackstands as needed, but where is the degree of 'levelness' determined on the frame?
Or do you determine the 'levelness' of the floor and attempt to adjust the jackstands to compensate?
Where are the exact points under the car to place the jackstands?
(Sorry if these seem like basic, elementary questions - I've always been intimidated by the thought to trusting my own skills, and rudimentary tools, to attempt an alignment on my own.)
This sounds excellent - I've been avoiding getting alignments done for years because I don't trust the shops to get it right the first time, and I hate having to deal with such things more than once...
Thanks for sharing your expertise!
Question - with the car on jackstands, where do you place the level to determine whether or not the car is sitting properly level before doing the procedures you describe? I'd assume that thin pieces of floor tile or something similar could be used to slightly raise and lower the jackstands as needed, but where is the degree of 'levelness' determined on the frame?
Or do you determine the 'levelness' of the floor and attempt to adjust the jackstands to compensate?
Where are the exact points under the car to place the jackstands?
(Sorry if these seem like basic, elementary questions - I've always been intimidated by the thought to trusting my own skills, and rudimentary tools, to attempt an alignment on my own.)
Thanks!
How you jack it, and were you place the stands is a personal preference. I use the cradle and front cross member. For level when on stands, I use a water level at inboard control member bolts. Inboard control arm piviots are pretty good referance points. Sheet material under the stands adjusts them. The hubs or their carriers are machined flat and work nicely for referencing angles. The “naked” set up I described is not a condition your in very often so the extra time spent doing this is actually minor in the scheme of things. No alignment shop could afford to spend this kind of time.
I stand corrected on the camber part. The last alinement I did myself has lasted longer with less wear than when I had it done at a shop and its still going.
Shops love it when people do there own aligments, I know the shop where I work sure does! it means more money when you come in with tires worn strangly, and balljoint/tie rod ends all messed up. I would suggest that if you really dont know what your doing, then even a poor alignment done at a shop is better then what most people end up with doing it themselves.. Im not saying that If you are competent and know what you are doing that you shouldnt do it yourself, but the ameture can do far more damage then good.. and all to save 50 bucks? Find a good shop, that uses modern equipment that you can trust, make sure they give you a print out and explain what it means.
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05:30 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
I've done my own alignments for years, and one of the "tools" that I carry around is a bunch of one-foot-square vinyl floor tiles. They are flat and about 1/16th of an inch thick, so you can place one or more under a wheel on a floor that is not level and make your own level surface. You can use a metal rod or tube as a bridge between the tiles and then use a carpenter's level to check that the bridge is level.
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10:12 PM
ka4nkf Member
Posts: 3702 From: New Port Richey, FL USA Registered: May 99
You can buy a camber tool from Harbor Freight I think around $10.00. It has a magnet back that holds it to the rotor and does a real good job. also if your car is in line and you want to swap the struts, then you put this tool on the rotor and set to zero. Then when you have the new strut installed,you place the tool back on the rotor and adjust the camber bolts until it reads zero, and your alighnment is still where it was. A tool that ever Fiero owner needs. Don
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10:31 PM
PFF
System Bot
LZeitgeist Member
Posts: 5662 From: Raleigh, NC, U.S.A. Registered: Dec 2000
Doesn't the car have to be on the ground, i.e. suspension loaded, to get an accurate alignment? How do you jack the car up and align it?
That's why I was wondering where to put the jackstands - I assumed that the car would have to be resting on the suspension on the jackstands, rather than the frame being supported b the jackstands and letting the suspension hang.
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10:43 PM
Mar 18th, 2005
DRA Member
Posts: 4543 From: Martinez, Ga, USA Registered: Oct 1999
I've done "at home" alignments on lowered cars just to get them safely to a shop for a more precise alignment, I would like to do my own but thats an area I wouldn't want to scrimp on tools. There's a product called "Smart Strings" that runs around $350 that might be a good start. Slip plates seem like a neccessity for a precise alignment but I may be wrong. Take a look at some of the alignment tools at http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/
Not saying it can't be done at home with some basic tools but I don't think the average joe has the patience to get it as close to spec (whatever specs you personally desire) as a well equipped shop. Alignments and machine work are two areas I let someone else worry about.
------------------ I hate to advocate weird chemicals, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone... but they've always worked for me.
[This message has been edited by DRA (edited 03-18-2005).]
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02:02 AM
dguy Member
Posts: 2416 From: Beckwith Township, ON, Canada Registered: Jan 2003
Yellow-88, I hope you don't mind me jumping in here with a few comments. I ventured in to DIY wheel alignments a while back... not due to lack of trust in the local shops mind you, but because it was the one remaining thing that I hadn't taught myself how to do yet.
quote
Originally posted by Yellow-88:
The chassis center is a line is a line running the length of the car, exactly between the centerlines of the control arm bushings. You set toe by measuring between the strings, and the machined outer edge of the wheel.
If you have the equipment, it doesn't hurt to check each rim for runout before doing this and if necessary orient the rim such that you're taking the string-to-rim measurements at locations on the rim with the least amount of variance.
quote
Originally posted by Tom Piantanida:
I've done my own alignments for years, and one of the "tools" that I carry around is a bunch of one-foot-square vinyl floor tiles. They are flat and about 1/16th of an inch thick, so you can place one or more under a wheel on a floor that is not level and make your own level surface.
Not to mention that a thin layer of grease between the top two tiles provides a handy slip plate when making toe adjustments.
quote
Originally posted by LZeitgeist:
That's why I was wondering where to put the jackstands - I assumed that the car would have to be resting on the suspension on the jackstands, rather than the frame being supported b the jackstands and letting the suspension hang.
Correct. The suspension must be loaded and level.
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09:09 AM
Yellow-88 Member
Posts: 819 From: Coventry CT. Registered: Feb 2005
That's why I was wondering where to put the jackstands - I assumed that the car would have to be resting on the suspension on the jackstands, rather than the frame being supported b the jackstands and letting the suspension hang.
Doing caster and camber on stands partly assumes that you're doing it at the time you rebuild the syspention. The springs woud be removed, and the control arms raised to normal ride hight.That part is critical. I do it that way because I find that it's actualy faster, easier, and far more acurate than fighting springs on the ground.
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12:47 PM
Yellow-88 Member
Posts: 819 From: Coventry CT. Registered: Feb 2005
Yellow-88, I hope you don't mind me jumping in here with a few comments. I ventured in to DIY wheel alignments a while back... not due to lack of trust in the local shops mind you, but because it was the one remaining thing that I hadn't taught myself how to do yet.
Correct. The suspension must be loaded and level.
All good coments, but I'd like to coment on the last one.
The suspention does not need to be loaded. With NEW parts, there is't enough play to consider. I do caster/camber on stands with no springs, but measure it occasionaly on the ground to check for ware. Toe MUST be done on the ground.
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12:55 PM
Yellow-88 Member
Posts: 819 From: Coventry CT. Registered: Feb 2005
Doesn't the car have to be on the ground, i.e. suspension loaded, to get an accurate alignment? How do you jack the car up and align it?
Doing caster and camber on stands partly assumes that you're doing it at the time you rebuild the suspension. The springs would be removed, and the control arms raised to normal ride height. That part is critical. I do it that way because I find that it's actually faster, easier, and far more accurate than fighting springs on the ground. It sounds very involved, but it’s a thing you do once in 70,000 miles.
Toe is always done on the ground.
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01:03 PM
Yellow-88 Member
Posts: 819 From: Coventry CT. Registered: Feb 2005
Shops love it when people do there own aligments, I know the shop where I work sure does! it means more money when you come in with tires worn strangly, and balljoint/tie rod ends all messed up. I would suggest that if you really dont know what your doing, then even a poor alignment done at a shop is better then what most people end up with doing it themselves.. Im not saying that If you are competent and know what you are doing that you shouldnt do it yourself, but the ameture can do far more damage then good.. and all to save 50 bucks? Find a good shop, that uses modern equipment that you can trust, make sure they give you a print out and explain what it means.
DO NOT attemp anyting that is clearly over your ability. This post is not at the "entry" level.
Caddy Rob...I will put the acuracy of my alignments against ANY equipment....ANY day. Again...this post is NOT intended for those who feel they are not comfortable with anything at this level.
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01:54 PM
Yellow-88 Member
Posts: 819 From: Coventry CT. Registered: Feb 2005
I've done "at home" alignments on lowered cars just to get them safely to a shop for a more precise alignment, I would like to do my own but thats an area I wouldn't want to scrimp on tools. There's a product called "Smart Strings" that runs around $350 that might be a good start. Slip plates seem like a neccessity for a precise alignment but I may be wrong. Take a look at some of the alignment tools at http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/
Not saying it can't be done at home with some basic tools but I don't think the average joe has the patience to get it as close to spec (whatever specs you personally desire) as a well equipped shop. Alignments and machine work are two areas I let someone else worry about.
I learned that I could do alignments watching a F-1 team set their McLaran with strings and a ruler. True it was 1973, but I don't need anything more for my Fiero today than team McLaran needed than.
Yes, I agree that the tools that are avalible today are very nice indeed. Maybe when I get my Lotus.
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02:08 PM
Yellow-88 Member
Posts: 819 From: Coventry CT. Registered: Feb 2005
You can buy a camber tool from Harbor Freight I think around $10.00. It has a magnet back that holds it to the rotor and does a real good job. also if your car is in line and you want to swap the struts, then you put this tool on the rotor and set to zero. Then when you have the new strut installed,you place the tool back on the rotor and adjust the camber bolts until it reads zero, and your alighnment is still where it was. A tool that ever Fiero owner needs. Don
I've seen that gage, but never used one. but a NASCAR crew member friend of mine uses one on there race car.
Here is a tip for rear camber. Once you have it where you want it, drill a hole through both the shock mounting, and the cast iron hub carrier. A steel pin can be inserted through that “locator” hole at any time in the future to duplicate the exact setting. I have holes at ¼ deg increments, so I can change camber angles without measuring anything. I havent changed mine from zero yet, but I think it's a slik trick for auto crossers.
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04:24 PM
RCR Member
Posts: 4416 From: Shelby Twp Mi Registered: Sep 2002
Very cool thread, but it's missing one thing...The factory specs for the alignment. I think you already have a plus from me, but if not, you have one now.
Bob
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04:47 PM
PFF
System Bot
aaron88 Member
Posts: 280 From: Ottawa, Canada Registered: Oct 2003
Originally posted by Yellow-88: Yes, I agree that the tools that are avalible today are very nice indeed. Maybe when I get my Lotus.
My friend has a Lotus and the manufacturer recomended him to use a 20' straight edge, to do his alignment. That's not high tech either, just high tolerance.
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06:03 PM
Doug Chase Member
Posts: 1487 From: Seattle area, Washington State, USA Registered: Sep 2001
Very cool thread, but it's missing one thing...The factory specs for the alignment. I think you already have a plus from me, but if not, you have one now.
Bob
Personaly...I don't use factory specs, partialy because I use hard bushings. (Solid rod ends) Factory specs assume rubber bushings. My normal settings, and I recomend theses for anyone runing hard control points, is to start at zero camber, and zero toe at all 4 corners. Since being comfortable doing your own alignment allows you the freedom to test basic settings, you can develop an honest assesment of just what setting work best for your driving needs. My driving is 60% flat highway, and the rest on normal secondary roads. An autocross car would be setup rather differantly than mine.
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10:58 AM
Yellow-88 Member
Posts: 819 From: Coventry CT. Registered: Feb 2005
My friend has a Lotus and the manufacturer recomended him to use a 20' straight edge, to do his alignment. That's not high tech either, just high tolerance.
That is an exellent alternative to strngs. A solid straight edge still must be placed exatly parralel to the chassis center line.
One thing on my drawing board is a straight edge with bolts set at the front and rear edge of both the front and rear wheel rims. The bolt lenght can be set so that when all 4 just touch, toe is exatly where you want it on that side. A steering wheel center mark lets you know where straight ahead is.
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11:10 AM
The Aura Member
Posts: 2290 From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Registered: Nov 2001
Very excellent write up, I have been doing my own alignments for the past 2 years.... and I couldn't be happier... It is also a plus because you can try different settings to see how they affect the car's handling.... Tunning the allignment to fit your driving style and suspension mods.
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04:55 PM
Mar 21st, 2005
Formula Owner Member
Posts: 1053 From: Madison, AL Registered: May 2001
One other thing I would like to add that may not be obvious. The car must be level. If you jack up the front, the caster will be off by whatever angle the car is sitting at, even if the control arms set to the proper angle. Doug's caution regarding ride height is correct, but don't forget that it applies to the front AND rear. Camber and toe can be measured with the front above the rear, but not caster.
Killer right up, A+ Yellow-88 I had the plan on try this last weekend but it rained all weekend, Can’t be leave it is still raining in CA. but when we get a nice weekend over heir I am going to Get this thing down packed I like the idea of doing this my self and having the option to tweak it how I want it not pay some one big buck and going home unhappy with the results and have to live with it till I decide to spend more big bucks
thanks big time jshark1
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06:21 PM
LoW_KeY Member
Posts: 8081 From: Hastings, MI Registered: Oct 2001
I should honestly learn how to do this every shop I go to screws me and my tires. Although I did find one that did it for $60 front and rear and they actually got it right on not sure how that'll go after I get my car lowered though.
even hunter racks arent all that accurate. they can be, but the shops ive been at calibrate them about 1/10 as often as they need it. ive seen them set up one tire way off.
im not so sure about trying to measure caster and camber in the air. you would have to have both ends in the air, level front/back and side/side, springs out of both ends, and some way to estimate the position of the control arms. it could be easier to take initial measurements on a flat level surface (YES on greased plates), then write down how far off each measurement is. next jack up one end, and remeasure. these measurements will be way off because of the car being far from level, and the suspension being unloaded, this does not matter. say the left front was at 5* caster, and you wanted one more degree. take the false "in air" measurement (maybe 8*) and adjust that number till it reads 9*. when you lower the car again remeasure, it will have very close to the same one extra degree. set camber next, the same way. toe done on the ground though. this is faily quick, and with the suspension hanging there is more room to work, maybe even with the tire still on.
this is a really great write-up yellow 88, and i appreciate it alot. it gave me lots of new ideas. (maybe even a laser on a jackstand instead of a string?)
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10:29 AM
PFF
System Bot
Yellow-88 Member
Posts: 819 From: Coventry CT. Registered: Feb 2005
I should honestly learn how to do this every shop I go to screws me and my tires. Although I did find one that did it for $60 front and rear and they actually got it right on not sure how that'll go after I get my car lowered though.
+ for ya
PLEASE.... don't think that alignment shops are screwing you on purpose. Alignment on our cars is a good bit more difficult, and a lot more critical than 99% of there routine work. We drive 2800 lb mid engine sports cars. We use hard bushings and sticky tires. In my opinion.....we NEED to do our own alingment.
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10:49 AM
Yellow-88 Member
Posts: 819 From: Coventry CT. Registered: Feb 2005
im not so sure about trying to measure caster and camber in the air. you would have to have both ends in the air, level front/back and side/side, springs out of both ends, and some way to estimate the position of the control arms. it could be easier to take initial measurements on a flat level surface (YES on greased plates), then write down how far off each measurement is. )
Caster is pretty difficult to measure on the ground, but there are inexpensive caster gages that are based on camber angle differance from lock to lock. Camber and toe are easy to measure on the ground, and I do it regularly to check for wear. I do alignment in the air, with springs removed, and control arms at normal ride hight, wicth is easy to find. I use a measurement from the fender edge to the hub center. Caster and camber settings last a long time, and don't need constant resetting. Very slight wear in those is not somthing you can feel, but it will affect toe angle. I check toe fairly offten.
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11:08 AM
Yellow-88 Member
Posts: 819 From: Coventry CT. Registered: Feb 2005
im not so sure about trying to measure caster and camber in the air. you would have to have both ends in the air, level front/back and side/side, springs out of both ends, and some way to estimate the position of the control arms. it could be easier to take initial measurements on a flat level surface (YES on greased plates), then write down how far off each measurement is.
Caster is pretty difficult to measure on the ground, but there are some inexpensive gages that are based on camber angle difference between left and right lock. Camber and toe are easy to measure on the ground, and I do that regularly to check for wear. Caster and camber settings last a very long time, and slight wear in them can’t really be felt, but will affect toe angle, witch can be felt. The procedure I described, again, is best done when the suspension is apart, or exposed for some other reason. Kill two sticks with one stone…..or something like that. I check toe fairly often, and make split-hair adjustments as needed. Your normal ride height can be measured any time, and should be noted in your log along with your other alignment readings.
i guess im missunderstanding how you measure caster in the air. are you using a tool to actually measure the angle the ball joints are at? how? never thought of that either!
the machines just measure the difference in camber as the wheel is turned both ways, while the car is setting flat.
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04:45 PM
Mar 23rd, 2005
Yellow-88 Member
Posts: 819 From: Coventry CT. Registered: Feb 2005
i guess im missunderstanding how you measure caster in the air. are you using a tool to actually measure the angle the ball joints are at? how? never thought of that either!
the machines just measure the difference in camber as the wheel is turned both ways, while the car is setting flat.
That caster gage is a pretty cool tool. Measuring it in the air with rulers is tricky, but very doable. Caster is the angle of a line running between the upper and lower ball joint centers, as viewed from the side. Caster is always positive, meaning that the lower ball joint is forward of the upper. With nothing in the way, and the control arms at normal ride height, you can get a pretty good look at that angle. The “visual aid” that I use is a piece of sheet steel, cut into a shape that fits around the knuckle and touches the ball joint housings. Caster is not SUPER critical, so I don’t worry if I'm off a hair or two. I like a lot of self-centering, so I run 6 deg min.
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02:21 PM
Mar 25th, 2005
RockChip Member
Posts: 361 From: Osler, Saskatchewan, Canada Registered: Nov 2002
I have my frontend pulled apart right now and will be putting in new ball joints and then doing an alignment. I would like to know how you find the normal ride height when the front springs are removed?
Ok, so how do you guys make sure your control arms are at ride height when doing an alignment on stands? If it's critical enough that you would want to use 1/16" tiles at each wheel to make sure they are all level, that seems like it would be pretty difficult to reach that level of accuracy on jack stands. You're going to have to know, within a fraction of an inch, exactly where the control arms need to be, and make sure they are all at the same height.
I love the idea of doing an at home alignment, but the more I read the more questions I have.
I'd be interested to see if anyone has done their own alignment, then taken it to an alignment shop to have it checked. I wonder how close you'd get to the specs you were shooting for. Being precise the the nth degree is useless if your reference is off.
Kind of like the engineering joke: -Measure with micrometer -Mark with chalk -Cut with chainsaw
i have set my own toe several times, and later checked with a rack to find out it was perfectly accurate. in fact, sometimes the computers out of calibration and are way off. often when techs are finished with an alignment, they will test drive and fine tune the toe on the ground to get the wheel perfectly straight.
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02:54 PM
Mar 26th, 2005
RockChip Member
Posts: 361 From: Osler, Saskatchewan, Canada Registered: Nov 2002
I would still like to know how to find ride height while the springs are out and the car is on jack stands. I will be putting my frontend together in the next couple of weeks. Thanks for posting this Yellow-88 it's perfect timing