I would still like to know how to find ride height while the springs are out and the car is on jack stands. I will be putting my frontend together in the next couple of weeks. Thanks for posting this Yellow-88 it's perfect timing
You need to measure your ride hight before you take it apart, but a good guess is to set the lower control arms paralell to the ground. I don't have my notebook handy but perhaps someone can jump in with nunbers for after market or cut springs. A ruler mesurement from the wheel center to the fender edge is good. Do pay attention to the fact that with the tire removed you need to "assume" the wheel center.
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09:16 AM
RockChip Member
Posts: 361 From: Osler, Saskatchewan, Canada Registered: Nov 2002
To the naysayers that have posted in this thread. You get what you pay for when you take it in to an alignment shop. The "mechanic" is not going to take the time to get it exactly right. He hopefully will take the time to get it within factory tolerances. Then again as previously mentioned - factory tolerances are for rubber bushings. The "mechanic" is there to make money and in this day and age - quanity of work, not quality of work is what is looked at. The "mechanics" foreman doesn't care that the job is perfect - he wants the vehicle done. There are exceptions to this but they are few and far between. There are shops that take the time to do it right but they charge accordingly. They aren't looking at the book which says it takes .67 hours to do the job. They to must make a living so they charge actual hours involved. As for the accuracy of the machines being used to check the measurements - they to are built to tolerances and must be calibrated to maintain those tolerances. They are mechanical/electrical substitutes for strings and a ruler with hopefully more accurate readings. It all boils down to the person using the tools and that person's view of what is acceptable. If it tracks straight when the alignment shop is done and the wheel is straight then it must be right. The alignment shop is not going to know that it feels wrong on turn in or anything else for that matter because they work on a variety of cars that are all different in feel. The best chance of getting it done right by a shop is possibly to take it to a race shop. Then again expect to pay race shop prices.
------------------ I am sick and tired of being sick and tired Virgin 88 coupe in the process of losing its virginity
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11:54 AM
RockChip Member
Posts: 361 From: Osler, Saskatchewan, Canada Registered: Nov 2002
Originally posted by jsmorter1: They aren't looking at the book which says it takes .67 hours to do the job.
This is a problem in all shops using the Flat Rate system, which includes nearly all Car Dealers and Chain stores but often doesn't include many independant shops. In general most shops charge a single flat rate for all alignments plus addon fees for dealing with things like Caster washers.
For those that don't know... Flat Rate is a horrible system. It is used to determine the actual pay of personel in many shops that use it. Never have your car fixed by a flat rate shop. Very briefly... The Flat Rate book says repair X takes 1 hour. The shop/tech found a way to cut corners and get it done in 15 minutes. You will get billed the hour. The Tech will get paid for the hour. It isn't uncommon for Techs that are shop management favorites to get payed for 100+ hours of work that they only did 30-40 hours on. It works against the unpopular tech just as baddly. That poor bastard will get all the jobs the book says are 1 hour but really take three. (Flat Rate books are frequently wrong and don't account for rotten hardware etc.)
I use NTB... Not because they are the best shop but because I can stand in the bay and watch them like a hawk. I've had to stop people jacking on the coolant pipes everywhere I go.
Back to the topic...
If you have modified the suspension, yes, you may need to use different numbers. This is to be expected.
Even with OE type parts, the GM numbers may not meet everyone's needs. If you are racing you may and likely do need different numbers at the track that you will for daily driving.
There is yet another way to do this... Find 4 donut spares the same size and put those on the car. This will open up the wheel wells for easier access to the hardware. This will let you put the car on the ground with the wheels under normal load. As long as the wheels are leveled, the change in ride height should not be a factor. The key is that the donuts must all be the same. That means same size offset etc.
Yes changing the 4 tires is a pain but it lets you have much more room to work. This could be really handy when you just replaced the UCA bushings and have to figure out the caster washers or when doing the 88 with it's more adjustable UCA.
Also... GM specs assume 4 tires with the same rolling diameter. If you have larger tires in the rear it will affect the alignment angles for both axles.
If this was mentioned I didn't see it... make sure all 4 tires have the correct inflation. A 1 PSI error is significant. Even smaller errors can go against you.
------------------ The only thing George Orwell got wrong was the year...
id like the names of shops that dont use flatrate. everywhere ive heard of uses it. im done working flatrate. what usually happens isnt the 100 hours thing, it is me woking 50 hour weeks for 30 hour pay. seems it doesnt hurt the shop to have lots of techs with little work - hey, they arent paying them anyway. not that being desperate for work would ever affect how the work was done.
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09:42 AM
Apr 14th, 2005
jsmorter1 Member
Posts: 674 From: Creston, Ohio Registered: Jun 2004
Time to move up the technical ladder a bit from strings and rulers. On to the temperature gun. A temperature gun can be used to measure tire tread temps. This is helpful in adjusting alignment to suit not only your vehicle but also your driving style. Ideally your tread temps should be even across the face of the tire. With the temp gun you can also find the exact psi that puts the tire flat on the ground.
I have been reading this grate post A+ , almost ready to try this my self. I see your recommended spec. to start with, with hard bushings ( that is what I have also) at zero camber, and zero toe at all 4 corners but what do I want to have the caster set at or am I missing some thing
thanks jsshark1
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06:57 PM
May 25th, 2005
tstroud Member
Posts: 527 From: Chariton, Iowa Registered: Feb 2002
I've been looking around at home alignment tools and this looks nice but somewhat overpriced. I might try to make something like this to use on my cars. http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/smart1.htm
It convinced me that I need to take the time and do mine myself.
I have a question regarding the leveling: I see where you take square foot vinyl mats 1/16 inch to level the car. So you're making sure it is REAL level. You do all of your adjustments. Then, a 200 pound guy gets in the driver seat and the suspension on the driver side settles 1/4 to 1/2 inch lower than the passenger side as the norm for daily driving. Do you compensate for this type of situation during the alignment phase by setting one side 1/2* different, etc.? Or does the change from the drivers weight being on one side of the car not really affect the angles enough to affect the feel and driveability you are looking for by such a refined alignment?
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06:45 PM
Jun 29th, 2005
Tom Slick Member
Posts: 4342 From: Alvarado, TX Registered: May 2003
I've been looking around at home alignment tools and this looks nice but somewhat overpriced. I might try to make something like this to use on my cars. http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/smart1.htm
I was reading through this thread and remembered that I had bought a digital level for setting up some competition model boats ( iused to race competitively ). The place where I got the level made alignment tools. Here is the web site
I was reading through this thread and remembered that I had bought a digital level for setting up some competition model boats ( iused to race competitively ). The place where I got the level made alignment tools. Here is the web site
wow after reading how the toe guage works , and since i'm familiar with all the materials they are building it with i'm amazed that they can get 800-1000$ for their toe alignment tool.
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03:04 PM
30+mpg Member
Posts: 4056 From: Russellville, AR Registered: Feb 2002
Camber Use any level, a carpenter's square, a shim & a 6" rule.
1. Place square against tire. 2. Use level & shim to set vertical leg of square at straight up & down. 3. Use rule to measure distance between square & lower rim of wheel. 4. Use rule to measure distance between square & upper rim of wheel. 5. Subtract #4 from #5 and divide by wheel diameter. 6. Use calculator to find the inverse tangent of the above result. That's your camber!
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06:45 PM
Jun 30th, 2005
Yellow-88 Member
Posts: 819 From: Coventry CT. Registered: Feb 2005
It convinced me that I need to take the time and do mine myself.
I have a question regarding the leveling: I see where you take square foot vinyl mats 1/16 inch to level the car. So you're making sure it is REAL level. You do all of your adjustments. Then, a 200 pound guy gets in the driver seat and the suspension on the driver side settles 1/4 to 1/2 inch lower than the passenger side as the norm for daily driving. Do you compensate for this type of situation during the alignment phase by setting one side 1/2* different, etc.? Or does the change from the drivers weight being on one side of the car not really affect the angles enough to affect the feel and driveability you are looking for by such a refined alignment?
The whole reason for leveling the chassis is because the method I describe here uses a level to measure angles. The level chassis is a baseline.
Adding 200 lbs to one side of the chassis has nothing to do with static camber angles.
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07:53 AM
Yellow-88 Member
Posts: 819 From: Coventry CT. Registered: Feb 2005
They would probably work just fine, and you might pay for them by renting them to others who think they need them.
I gave up doing alignments with the wheels on, because on a lowered Fiero, there is just not enough room for arms and wrenches in the wheel wells, and I don’t like fighting the springs either. Alignment lasts the life of the new suspension parts, so I just do the caster camber part while it’s completely apart.
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08:11 AM
Nov 14th, 2005
Gokart Mozart Member
Posts: 12143 From: Metro Detroit Registered: Mar 2003
You can buy a camber tool from Harbor Freight I think around $10.00. It has a magnet back that holds it to the rotor and does a real good job. also if your car is in line and you want to swap the struts, then you put this tool on the rotor and set to zero. Then when you have the new strut installed,you place the tool back on the rotor and adjust the camber bolts until it reads zero, and your alighnment is still where it was. A tool that ever Fiero owner needs. Don
That tool, used carefully, can get the camber close enough to drive to the alignment shop. It's a great idea, but that bubble doesn't read with enough precision to get the camber within spec. However, if you use that magnet bubble thing to duplicate your camber settings and get it almost perfect your toe setting will still be way out. Small changes in camber make big changes in toe; you might want to check and adjust the toe before you drive over to the alignment shop.
Get it as perfect as you can, then go see the pros and let them check your work. Once you've discovered how much "fun" a good alignment can be you'll better understand why the alignment job you get from the average shop isn't very good...
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05:14 PM
Carswell...Wellscar Member
Posts: 947 From: Whitby, ON, Canada Registered: Aug 2004
ummm is it easy to align the back wheels ..because i had my rear cradle out ..struts ..and controls arms all seperate...and i need my back end aligned because the control arm bushings ..well a part of them are digging into the rear rotors ..and even when the car is on and in neutral u can even push it urself ..and with teh engine running and the car in reverse it doesn't even start to move backwards on its own ..that should tell you how much it digs into the rotors ..but they are crappy rotors anyways ...and i even tried setting the two bolts on the strut in more ..but still nothing major ..so i guess an alignment in the rear end should fix my problem ..yes ?? no?? anyone have this same problem ..and i'm sure the control arms are not bent ....
thanks matt
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06:19 PM
texasfiero Member
Posts: 4674 From: Houston, TX USA Registered: Jun 2003
