“We” the fiero community, really should learn to do our own alignment…..for several reasons. One being the fact that we require higher accuracy than what is generally accepted. Many Fieros use hard bushing, that are VERY sensitive to alignment settings. Many fieros are lowered; making the physical job more difficult than most shops can afford to deal with. Finally, the shear cost and aggravation of dealing with shops, simply isn’t worth it.

Alignment is not difficult to do, and it does not require expensive equipment, but does require some care and paitance.

All three settings, caster, camber, and toe are interrelated. Changing caster will affect both others. Changing camber will affect both others. Changing toe will not affect caster and camber. There is a bit of juggling act to get them were you want them. Doing caster and camber will quickly make you understand why shops just stop when they get somwere within OEM tolerances.

You set et toe last , so I’ll save it for last. Toe is the easiest, and by FAR, is the one you feel most.

Caster and camber are the really hard ones. Please...don't let this scare you

I set both using a 24” level. Here’s the key to measuring angles.
A 1 deg angle equals ¼” over 14”. To use that system, it REALLY helps to set the car is perfectly level.

Caster is the most difficult because the centers of the ball joint are hard to locate directly. It does get a good bit easier with nothing in the way, so if you do it when your front end is “naked” you will have a much easer time. By naked, I mean nothing except control arms and knuckles. Clearly, during a front end rebuild, or a serious cleaning, is the best time to do it. In fact, don’t even bother if anything is really worn out. You CANNOT align a worn out chassis. Fortunately, the caster setting will last as long as the new front end parts.

Setting front camber is best done the same way and same time as caster. It’s the second most sensitive after toe. It can be fine tuned on the ground, but if you nail it on the stands, you will be glad you did.

Camber can be easily MEASURED by placing the car on exactly level floor, or 4 pads that are exactly level. A level held vertically tells you your camber setting. My camber gage is a 24” level with bolts located the same distance as the machined surface of the wheels. 14”

Toe is the one you REALLY feel, and the one you will "fine tune", untill you like your settings.
For setting toe, the parallel string method is simple to use, and once a centerline mark has been established on your chassis, it takes only minuets to set your strings. The strings are EXATLLY parallel to each other, and EXATLLY parallel to the fore/aft centerline of the chassis. They are positioned at wheel center height, and a convenient distance out board from the wheels. 4 heavy jack stands and 50’ of nylon string work nicely. My center marks are notches cut into the front, and rear bumpers. With a tape hooked into the notches, I can setup the toe strings effortlessly.

The chassis center is a line is a line running the length of the car, exactly between the centerlines of the control arm bushings. You set toe by measuring between the strings, and the machined outer edge of the wheel. The same dimension at the front edge, and the rear edge, is zero toe. A smaller distance at the front than the rear is toe-in. You should do it with the steering wheel locked at dead center. You can roll the car forward and backward, and jounce it a few times to be sure everything is settled. A road test will tell you if your steering wheel is centered. If you drive right back between your strings, you can re-set them in seconds, for a final tune.

Please ask anything that is not clear.

This sounds excellent - I've been avoiding getting alignments done for years because I don't trust the shops to get it right the first time, and I hate having to deal with such things more than once...

Thanks for sharing your expertise!

Question - with the car on jackstands, where do you place the level to determine whether or not the car is sitting properly level before doing the procedures you describe? I'd assume that thin pieces of floor tile or something similar could be used to slightly raise and lower the jackstands as needed, but where is the degree of 'levelness' determined on the frame?

Or do you determine the 'levelness' of the floor and attempt to adjust the jackstands to compensate?

Where are the exact points under the car to place the jackstands?

(Sorry if these seem like basic, elementary questions - I've always been intimidated by the thought to trusting my own skills, and rudimentary tools, to attempt an alignment on my own.)

Thanks!

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Patrick W. Heinske -- LZeitgeist@aol.com
1988 Red Fiero Formula Convertible

[This message has been edited by LZeitgeist (edited 03-17-2005).]

good write up!

big + for you

will keep this one bookmarked.

a big "+" to you.

edit: is it possible to include pictures for those of us who don't like to read.

edit2: found this link. http://www.lonestarfieros.org/~bhughes/Fiero_Alignment/Home_Alignment.htm

thanks,
thomas...

[This message has been edited by Tom Slick (edited 03-17-2005).]

quote Originally posted by LZeitgeist: This sounds excellent - I've been avoiding getting alignments done for years because I don't trust the shops to get it right the first time, and I hate having to deal with such things more than once... Thanks for sharing your expertise! Question - with the car on jackstands, where do you place the level to determine whether or not the car is sitting properly level before doing the procedures you describe? I'd assume that thin pieces of floor tile or something similar could be used to slightly raise and lower the jackstands as needed, but where is the degree of 'levelness' determined on the frame? Or do you determine the 'levelness' of the floor and attempt to adjust the jackstands to compensate? Where are the exact points under the car to place the jackstands? (Sorry if these seem like basic, elementary questions - I've always been intimidated by the thought to trusting my own skills, and rudimentary tools, to attempt an alignment on my own.) Thanks!

How you jack it, and were you place the stands is a personal preference. I use the cradle and front cross member. For level when on stands, I use a water level at inboard control member bolts. Inboard control arm piviots are pretty good referance points. Sheet material under the stands adjusts them. The hubs or their carriers are machined flat and work nicely for referencing angles. The “naked” set up I described is not a condition your in very often so the extra time spent doing this is actually minor in the scheme of things. No alignment shop could afford to spend this kind of time.

All questions are equal. No need to be sorry.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20020511-2-017287.html

I stand corrected on the camber part. The last alinement I did myself has lasted longer with less wear than when I had it done at a shop and its still going.

Shops love it when people do there own aligments, I know the shop where I work sure does! it means more money when you come in with tires worn strangly, and balljoint/tie rod ends all messed up. I would suggest that if you really dont know what your doing, then even a poor alignment done at a shop is better then what most people end up with doing it themselves.. Im not saying that If you are competent and know what you are doing that you shouldnt do it yourself, but the ameture can do far more damage then good.. and all to save 50 bucks? Find a good shop, that uses modern equipment that you can trust, make sure they give you a print out and explain what it means.

Doesn't the car have to be on the ground, i.e. suspension loaded, to get an accurate alignment? How do you jack the car up and align it?

I've done my own alignments for years, and one of the "tools" that I carry around is a bunch of one-foot-square vinyl floor tiles. They are flat and about 1/16th of an inch thick, so you can place one or more under a wheel on a floor that is not level and make your own level surface. You can use a metal rod or tube as a bridge between the tiles and then use a carpenter's level to check that the bridge is level.

You can buy a camber tool from Harbor Freight I think around $10.00. It has a magnet back that holds it to the rotor and does a real good job. also if your car is in line and you want to swap the struts, then you put this tool on the rotor and set to zero. Then when you have the new strut installed,you place the tool back on the rotor and adjust the camber bolts until it reads zero, and your alighnment is still where it was. A tool that ever Fiero owner needs.
Don

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Doesn't the car have to be on the ground, i.e. suspension loaded, to get an accurate alignment? How do you jack the car up and align it?

That's why I was wondering where to put the jackstands - I assumed that the car would have to be resting on the suspension on the jackstands, rather than the frame being supported b the jackstands and letting the suspension hang.

I've done "at home" alignments on lowered cars just to get them safely to a shop for a more precise alignment, I would like to do my own but thats an area I wouldn't want to scrimp on tools. There's a product called "Smart Strings" that runs around $350 that might be a good start. Slip plates seem like a neccessity for a precise alignment but I may be wrong.
Take a look at some of the alignment tools at http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/

Not saying it can't be done at home with some basic tools but I don't think the average joe has the patience to get it as close to spec (whatever specs you personally desire) as a well equipped shop.
Alignments and machine work are two areas I let someone else worry about.

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I hate to advocate weird chemicals, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone... but they've always worked for me.

[This message has been edited by DRA (edited 03-18-2005).]

Yellow-88, I hope you don't mind me jumping in here with a few comments. I ventured in to DIY wheel alignments a while back... not due to lack of trust in the local shops mind you, but because it was the one remaining thing that I hadn't taught myself how to do yet.

quote Originally posted by Yellow-88: The chassis center is a line is a line running the length of the car, exactly between the centerlines of the control arm bushings. You set toe by measuring between the strings, and the machined outer edge of the wheel.

If you have the equipment, it doesn't hurt to check each rim for runout before doing this and if necessary orient the rim such that you're taking the string-to-rim measurements at locations on the rim with the least amount of variance.

quote Originally posted by Tom Piantanida: I've done my own alignments for years, and one of the "tools" that I carry around is a bunch of one-foot-square vinyl floor tiles. They are flat and about 1/16th of an inch thick, so you can place one or more under a wheel on a floor that is not level and make your own level surface.

Not to mention that a thin layer of grease between the top two tiles provides a handy slip plate when making toe adjustments.

quote Originally posted by LZeitgeist: That's why I was wondering where to put the jackstands - I assumed that the car would have to be resting on the suspension on the jackstands, rather than the frame being supported b the jackstands and letting the suspension hang.

Correct. The suspension must be loaded and level.

quote Originally posted by LZeitgeist: That's why I was wondering where to put the jackstands - I assumed that the car would have to be resting on the suspension on the jackstands, rather than the frame being supported b the jackstands and letting the suspension hang.

Doing caster and camber on stands partly assumes that you're doing it at the time you rebuild the syspention. The springs woud be removed, and the control arms raised to normal ride hight.That part is critical. I do it that way because I find that it's actualy faster, easier, and far more acurate than fighting springs on the ground.

Very cool thread, but it's missing one thing...The factory specs for the alignment. I think you already have a plus from me, but if not, you have one now.

Bob

quote Originally posted by Yellow-88: Yes, I agree that the tools that are avalible today are very nice indeed. Maybe when I get my Lotus.

My friend has a Lotus and the manufacturer recomended him to use a 20' straight edge, to do his alignment. That's not high tech either, just high tolerance.

Good post Yellow-88. Alignments aren't rocket science, they just require time and patience, especially if you don't own a Hunter rack.

quote Originally posted by Yellow-88: The suspention does not need to be loaded. With NEW parts, there is't enough play to consider.

I'd like to add something just to make things 100% clear for everybody. I know you already know this.

The suspension does not need to be loaded, but it does need to be at ride height.

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Doug Chase
Chase Race
Custom roll cage and exhaust fabrication

quote Originally posted by Doug Chase: I'd like to add something just to make things 100% clear for everybody. The suspension does not need to be loaded, but it does need to be at ride height.

Thank you Doug. Very clearly said.

Very excellent write up, I have been doing my own alignments for the past 2 years.... and I couldn't be happier... It is also a plus because you can try different settings to see how they affect the car's handling.... Tunning the allignment to fit your driving style and suspension mods.

One other thing I would like to add that may not be obvious. The car must be level. If you jack up the front, the caster will be off by whatever angle the car is sitting at, even if the control arms set to the proper angle. Doug's caution regarding ride height is correct, but don't forget that it applies to the front AND rear. Camber and toe can be measured with the front above the rear, but not caster.

Killer right up, A+ Yellow-88 I had the plan on try this last weekend but it rained all weekend,
Can’t be leave it is still raining in CA. but when we get a nice weekend over heir I am going to
Get this thing down packed I like the idea of doing this my self and having the option to tweak it how I want it not pay some one big buck and going home unhappy with the results and have to live with it till I decide to spend more big bucks

thanks big time
jshark1

I should honestly learn how to do this every shop I go to screws me and my tires. Although I did find one that did it for $60 front and rear and they actually got it right on not sure how that'll go after I get my car lowered though.

+ for ya

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http://formula.cryptnix.com

even hunter racks arent all that accurate. they can be, but the shops ive been at calibrate them about 1/10 as often as they need it. ive seen them set up one tire way off.

im not so sure about trying to measure caster and camber in the air. you would have to have both ends in the air, level front/back and side/side, springs out of both ends, and some way to estimate the position of the control arms. it could be easier to take initial measurements on a flat level surface (YES on greased plates), then write down how far off each measurement is. next jack up one end, and remeasure. these measurements will be way off because of the car being far from level, and the suspension being unloaded, this does not matter. say the left front was at 5* caster, and you wanted one more degree. take the false "in air" measurement (maybe 8*) and adjust that number till it reads 9*. when you lower the car again remeasure, it will have very close to the same one extra degree. set camber next, the same way. toe done on the ground though.
this is faily quick, and with the suspension hanging there is more room to work, maybe even with the tire still on.

this is a really great write-up yellow 88, and i appreciate it alot. it gave me lots of new ideas. (maybe even a laser on a jackstand instead of a string?)

quote Originally posted by LoW_KeY: I should honestly learn how to do this every shop I go to screws me and my tires. Although I did find one that did it for $60 front and rear and they actually got it right on not sure how that'll go after I get my car lowered though. + for ya

PLEASE.... don't think that alignment shops are screwing you on purpose. Alignment on our cars is a good bit more difficult, and a lot more critical than 99% of there routine work. We drive 2800 lb mid engine sports cars. We use hard bushings and sticky tires. In my opinion.....we NEED to do our own alingment.

i guess im missunderstanding how you measure caster in the air. are you using a tool to actually measure the angle the ball joints are at? how? never thought of that either!

the machines just measure the difference in camber as the wheel is turned both ways, while the car is setting flat.

quote Originally posted by ricreatr: i guess im missunderstanding how you measure caster in the air. are you using a tool to actually measure the angle the ball joints are at? how? never thought of that either! the machines just measure the difference in camber as the wheel is turned both ways, while the car is setting flat.

That caster gage is a pretty cool tool. Measuring it in the air with rulers is tricky, but very doable. Caster is the angle of a line running between the upper and lower ball joint centers, as viewed from the side. Caster is always positive, meaning that the lower ball joint is forward of the upper. With nothing in the way, and the control arms at normal ride height, you can get a pretty good look at that angle. The “visual aid” that I use is a piece of sheet steel, cut into a shape that fits around the knuckle and touches the ball joint housings. Caster is not SUPER critical, so I don’t worry if I'm off a hair or two. I like a lot of self-centering, so I run 6 deg min.

I have my frontend pulled apart right now and will be putting in new ball joints and then doing an alignment. I would like to know how you find the normal ride height when the front springs are removed?

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'86 Fiero GT 4spd, 3400 mpfi , vented rear brakes, K&N filter, Cavalier seats, Celica GTS Rims, Mustang Scoop
'69 AMC Ambassador sst 2dr hardtop 390ci 3 spd B&M shift kit(315hp/427ftlbs)
'01 Yamaha YZ426F
'89 Acura Integra LS-winter beater

Ok, so how do you guys make sure your control arms are at ride height when doing an alignment on stands?
If it's critical enough that you would want to use 1/16" tiles at each wheel to make sure they are all level, that seems like it would be pretty difficult to reach that level of accuracy on jack stands. You're going to have to know, within a fraction of an inch, exactly where the control arms need to be, and make sure they are all at the same height.

I love the idea of doing an at home alignment, but the more I read the more questions I have.

I'd be interested to see if anyone has done their own alignment, then taken it to an alignment shop to have it checked. I wonder how close you'd get to the specs you were shooting for. Being precise the the n^th degree is useless if your reference is off.

Kind of like the engineering joke:
-Measure with micrometer
-Mark with chalk
-Cut with chainsaw

i have set my own toe several times, and later checked with a rack to find out it was perfectly accurate. in fact, sometimes the computers out of calibration and are way off. often when techs are finished with an alignment, they will test drive and fine tune the toe on the ground to get the wheel perfectly straight.

Bump

I would still like to know how to find ride height while the springs are out and the car is on jack stands. I will be putting my frontend together in the next couple of weeks. Thanks for posting this Yellow-88 it's perfect timing