There is another thread going on talking about 3800 motor mounts and a corvette brake upgrade(84-87). We need to combine forces and go to one thread. Both threads have a lot of good info. Here is the link to the other thread . It may be something you are interested in techman2.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/050753.html

My questions are pretty simple, but I can't seem to locate the entire answer in one area, so I'm confused...

What year Corvette rotors work?

What year Calipers work?

If I use newer calipers (ones with ebrake as part of the caliper) do the brackets on bubba's website still work?

Is the bracket on bubba's website the same for front and back?

1) 1988 rotors are the ones to use because they are the 12" because some of the newer ones are the 13" or HD.

2) 1987 or 1988 for the front caliper and 1996 for the rear calipers if you want the E-brake

3) The front and rear brackets are differant, look at his website closely and you will see that the front bracket is 7/8" thick and the rear is 3/8" thick and since the calipers are differant the hole locations are differant.

I hope this clears some confussion.

You got some of this wrong.

The '88 rotors can be bought in either the 12" or 13". The 13" is usually indicated in the books as "HD" or "Performance" or something like that. You want the standard, '88 rotors so you get the 12" ones. You need 2 fronts and 2 rears and the fronts go on the fronts and the rears go on the rears. They are NOT interchangeable.

'87 and down a few years calipers AND THEIR BRACKETS for the front. The brackets are no longer available from GM so you have to find them somewhere used or NOS. '88-'92 (I think up to '92) rear calipers and brackets if you want to use the 'vette e brake system. If you don't care, the pre-'88's have no e-brake provision.

Go back and read the thread again, these questions have been covered in more detail.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by techman2: 1) 1988 rotors are the ones to use because they are the 12" because some of the newer ones are the 13" or HD. 2) 1987 or 1988 for the front caliper and 1996 for the rear calipers if you want the E-brake 3) The front and rear brackets are differant, look at his website closely and you will see that the front bracket is 7/8" thick and the rear is 3/8" thick and since the calipers are differant the hole locations are differant. I hope this clears some confussion.

just as another option for the rears; the so-called Zettner upgrade uses Caddy (or Toronado etc) rear calipers that have the ebrake; they are similar to the fieros but larger and use the Lebaron rotors. You can certainly do the vette of course but I think you will be 'way overbraked on the rear as you will have enormously larger braking capacity without the 'weight transfer benefit' that you get (so to speak) under heavy braking. I think that stuff will be a lot easier to find and cheaper, too.

re: fronts; when you are getting anything at all for it, make sure you check rotor widths; I found there are different widths (ie thickness of the rotor) as well as diameter. And mine are directional so if that applies to yours make sure you get a left and a right.

I looked at the wilwood stuff and it looks really nice but it 'pushes' one of my basic approaches to my build: It has to be repairable anywhere. I know, ... I am going with Wilwood calipers, but I am thinking that brand new calipers that get 'looked at' on a regular basis and driven only occasionally anyway....) are not typically a source of a lot of trouble. It's a concession for the ease of their installation and light weight.

Rotors and everything else are 'service items' - so I want to be able to get bearings, races, rotors etc almost anywhere in the event I have a breakdown 500 miles from home.

just one of my considerations.

That's a pretty good tack to follow, but I once have been stranded for two days waiting for a GM part in a nice size town. So these days with the global reach at your finger tips I really just worry about my custom one off parts and bad drivers.

At present I am working on the Wilwood setup. I'm looking at the lug versis radial mount options but I think the lug version will in the end be the better choice.

------------------
yellow 88 GT, not stock

You're 100% right. The big "weakness" of the stock Fiero front spindle set-up is that the front wheel bearing set is just so small diameter. It has nothing to do with the spindles breaking. I'm sure someone, somewhere, has heard a story of a friend's buddy's nephew's brother that snapped a Fiero spindle in half after locking up the brakes but has anyone actually SEEN one? Nope.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by fiero308: re: breaking spindles. I believe this is a fallacy that got started somewhere as a rumour or someones simple question. If a spindle will stand up to a full lock braking stop - ie wheels skidding on asphalt - then how are bigger brakes going to apply more braking torque? Once you're locked up you're locked up. You can't exert more braking torque then the tires will apply to the road. It doesn't make sense. I saw a number of posts and concerns about that about 2 yrs ago when I was looking into brake upgrades but couldn't actually find anyone who knew about even ONE case firsthand. There was one manufacturer who 'mentioned' it in the context that their new spindles were stronger than stock so breakage wouldn't be an issue (or something along those lines) but everyone involved in the discussions couldn't come up with a single 'real life' breakage example.

Sorry jstricker about the misinformation, I know there is a differance in the rotors and I thought I had it clear enough not to get the HD rotors. As far as the calipers and caliper brackets go, that is the info I collected from other sources. If it is false or I wasn't clear enough I am sorry.

All I'm trying to do, with this post, is to have one good source of information on this brake upgrade. I have discovered that there is enough information out there but it is either in several places or some of it is false or misleading. Take for example "you can't use 13" rotors or two piston or bigger calipers because you will brake your spindles."

In the end I would like to be able to post all the findings in one place, which would have all of this information nicely laid out with part numbers and/or years of that corvette part. Where to find them, maybe even the estimated cost. Adapter diagrams to mount the calipers and options such as the Wilwood calipers if someone wanted to go that way.

If I misquoted/misinformed the spindle breakage problem I apologize...just don't want anybody to get hurt...
But I think it would have been how fast the wheel locks up(torque against the spindle), not once it's locked up...bigger rotors, better brakes...

Dragon1/Brian

Avoid this site like the plague. While browsing there popups installed several programs on my computer. I scan my machines at startup. I update my definitions. I had only been to this site and that site and had viewed no media files durring that session. I was browsing the builders rides section, probably about the 6th text link from the top when it happened. I got no confirmation message, never clicked okay to any of these.

http://members.fortunecity.com/bubbajoexx/id215.htm

Ad destroyer
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Alexa
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IBIS toolbar
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Possible Browser Hijack Attempt
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In total I had to remove 571 objects in safe mode to get back to where my computer would respond enough to allow me to now attempt to remove the base programs.

Hosting is not that expensive, please get a real server. Myhosting.com (softcomca.com company) has a very nice hosting package that is only $10 a month, and doesn't produce all these pop-ups.

The information on your site is great. I appreciate your sharing your prodjects. It's a great reference. But put it on a real server.

Edit: Fisrt reboot generated 543 more objects. I must have missed something. I'm going to fight this for about another hour before I give up and reload.

Found more:
Adintelligent
Begin2Search
Elitum.ElitebarBHO
VX2
MediaMonitor
AdRotator
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Rads01.Quadragram

These programs are cross-installing. I'm reloading.

How things like this happen: Your free webhost neds to pay the bills. They get you to provide content, and they sell ad rotation spots. Usually these are mildly annoying widows offering services you don't want, and you ignore them. Occasionally, though, someone else interested in making a lot of money buys these spots. They have a deal with several companies where they only get paid per install of said company's software. They use their spot to force the install of these programs, which report back to the company when they are installed. The bastard gets paid. By altering these programs to also install other programs that the bastard will get paid for getting you to try, he makes even more money. The person responsible doesn't care if you ever use the programs. He gets paid just because you installed them.

Please report this to your webhost or PM me contact information so I can do it.

[This message has been edited by HellYes (edited 04-20-2005).]

So, what is the latest?

Any part #'s that you have bought yet?

Can I use the front calipers on both the front & rear???

Love this info.

I agree with a "one stop shop" for the install.

Kudos.

John

don't want to say the wrong thing but getting one of those $19.95 automotive books on brakes and braking systems would be a good idea and a really cheap investment too.
You need to know (or might WANT to know) about master cylinder volumes and maybe proportioning valves and so on and so forth and you may as well get it from a source like that.
YOu might find that there are so many bastardized (sorry, CUSTOMized ) systems on this forum that it might be hard to find exactly what you want....... everyone has tweeked theirs a bit somewhere or is after something different from their setup.
For example I am going to use wilwood front calipers (4 piston) with caddy rear calipers, stainless flex lines all 4 corners, and a slightly larger master cyl and expect to put a proportioning valve on the system.
someone else might mix and match their fronts and rears differently; there are all sorts of things possible.

so getting a good basis in what you can and maybe can't do can save you a lot of time and money as well as the obvious safety issues.
gp

I have been to bubba's site more times than I can count. Never any problems. I use Firefox browser and I do get a popup block. I also have spy sweeper running. You may want to beef up your system protection..

quote Originally posted by Grim001: I have been to bubba's site more times than I can count. Never any problems. I use Firefox browser and I do get a popup block. I also have spy sweeper running. You may want to beef up your system protection..

I have been there a lot too, and other than anoying windows, it's never been a problem. Assuming that there were others out there like me who are more comfortable with reloading a machine once or twice a year than running always-on virus protection, I felt I should say something. I refuse to run alway-on virus software because it knocks your system easily down to half speed when it's running. I just can't stand it. I'm not saying it's his fault. I'm just advising people to avoid the site along with other fortunecity sites, as one of their advertisers is forcing program installs. You may get lucky 100 times. The add rotation on these servers is a long list, and it's not cheap. Whoever is responsible for the one thay blew my PC to bits is probably paying the minumum, and won't come up that often.

Sorry about your problem HellYes, but I also have been on that site a lot and not a problem at all.

But can we get back to the subject at hand and talk about the brake uprade.

If no one has any more replies to add to the Corvette/Fiero barke upgrade I will let the thread die in peace.

There was a bracket for the corvette brakes that went on ebay today .

This guy has them all the time i bought my set up from him with calipers and had the adapters made locallyout of steel also the concentric rings.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&ite m=7968623367&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT

[This message has been edited by Master Tuner Akimoto (edited 04-22-2005).]

Thanks Master Tuner Akimoto I will check Eibay to see if they are still there.

bump

Front caliper adapters came in yesterday from www.gmpartsdirect.com Unfortunately, the damn rears we ordered were the wrong part. Being a special order, they don't let you return them either... Too bad I missed that damn ebay auction...

I believe the rear caliper brackets for the 96 rear calipers (the ones with e-brake) are GM part number 10112652.

You can also order them from http://www.artscorvetteparts.com/ and the part number is EYE12652.

I am not 100% sure thiese part numbers are correct, because I have not ordered them myself, I do hope this helps.

[This message has been edited by techman2 (edited 04-23-2005).]

well the whole 'bracket' business, plus the cost of the calipers and other parts is what ultimately made me decide to go with another setup. And while it will require a custom mounting bracket I think the 'vette' way would have too. So you might still think about it; lighter weight, great stoppers, less cost I'll betcha, too. (I'm using stock vette rotors and so the only 'special' part is the wilwood caliper; around $165 each. Done.

Something to consider.

To let you now fiero308 I am looking in that direction also, so if you get the adapters figured out please let me know. I plan in the future to post as much information as possible using bothe the all stock Corvette parts and with the Wilwood calipers and let the person decide which they perfer or if they want to customize or modify either one.

As far as the cost I know you can get Corvette calipers at O'Reily's for around $45 front and $70 rear, I know these are rebuilt but it is a cheaper way and I will let the person doing it select which way they want to go.

I do like the Wilwood caliper idea though, they are diffentantly better than the stock Corvette calipers and since they are rigidly mounted the pads will not wear out as fast and give you better stoping. Do you plan on using Wilwood in the back also?

I didn't know the rebuilts would be that inexpensive; that is darn cheap for vette ......ANYthing.
but they are still a 2 piston one-side-only design, I think? So they need slider bolts and of course those brackets and then a custom adapter to mount the brackets to your fiero hub, I guess.

I am working with 'modified' front hubs. I have had the fiero stub axle drilled out and have replaced it with a camaro stub axle; pressed in and welded in place (very carefully etc by a good machine shop) so that I get the bigger stub axle with the bigger bearings etc etc. Then I took camaro 'rotor assys' which are much like the fiero front rotors, and had the brake disc parted off and the resultant hub assy trimmed as much as possible. I am not recommending this, by the way, this is simply what I decided to do. So I have a 5 on 4 3/4" bolt circle (all round; the rears are changed too)

So the vette rotor slips right on. I had the hub machined so that no centering rings are needed for anything and I am using 16" IROC (Camaro) rims. This all gave me the opportunity during machining to 'fiddle with' the scrub radius dimensions a bit and improve things there. Important since I am going to be turning a bigger tire ... still w/o pwr steering.

Anyway....... I haven't got my adapters made up but it is going to be specific to my setup so no good to anyone else, BUT but
it should be VERY easy for ANY half-baked machine shop to make up the brackets!
Here is how: (since the calipers don't move or slide; you just locate them ONE time and then make a bracket that 'locks' them there.
put together the hub assembly, including the knuckle/axle, hub assy and rotor. Sit the LOADED caliper (with pads) over the edge of the rotor as if it was in normal working position. Put all of this into the front wheel and bolt it together (this will be a fairly heavy assy) with your wheel lugnuts. Now this will tell you where the caliper should sit on the rotor and will also indicate what you have for clearance (if that is an issue) and will let you position the caliper as far to the outside (max braking torque) as possible. Don't sit right on the very edge, come inboard a tad.

Take this to your machine shop and show them exactly how you want the caliper to sit (and maybe a sketch!!) and they should be able to EASILY make up a bracket that will bolt to your knuckle AND the caliper. One relatively simple piece of steel. They prob will have to put a bend in it which is one reason you may not want to do it at home.

I am getting close to that stage with mine; with the 12" rotors I am REALLY close clearance wise to the inside of my rim but it is acceptable.
Again this is just the way I am doing mine. Note that I have a rebody kit that is wider than the stock fiero (hence the '308' - I am not a deer hunter LOL) so I am doing a few things at once here.
checked for pix but I lost a lot of them with the last hard drive episode.....

All I can say is WOW, I would really like to see pictures of all that you have done so far.

This might seem like a stupid question, but why since you used Camaro stub axels or spindles to go bigger in that area (bearings and such) did you machine off the rotor from the Camaro hubs so you could use Vette rotors. Aren't Camaro front rotors the same size and quality as the Vettes.

actually I DID in fact have camaro rotor/hub assys.......... including the 1LE optional handling package ones. But they are HUGE weight wise and of course are a rotor/hub assembly. One piece.
and I didn't want to spend money on that for any custom work because it is a consumable/wear item.

So I decided to mimic the fiero Lebaron etc upgrade but using the camaro as a base.

Why the change? To go to a 4 3/4" bolt pattern. I MISTAKENLY assumed that there would be an endless selection of wheels available in that bolt pattern; all kinds of styles and sizes and offsets and that is NOT the case anymore. Believe it or not, the mighty camaro is not as wildly popular as it used to be (discontinued, for example!!!) and things like wheels reflect that.
But I was already committed to it so I am plowing ahead. I wouldn't necessarily recommend this to anyone but it will work for me.
I'll get some pix up in a bit; gotta take some more.

Thanks fiero308, I didn't realize that the Camaro units where that heavy, but I understand now why you went that way.

To me it still it's a waste of time going with the 4-3/4 inch bolt circle because you still have a wider selection in after market wheels a lot more than 5 X 100 I am assuming. Not to mention the advantage of having bigger bearings, spindles and the hubs in the rear. I have been told in this section that there hasn't been one time where a bearing has failed with regular maintenance or a spindle braking, I just like the idea of the security of larger bearings and spindles.

[This message has been edited by techman2 (edited 04-23-2005).]

well there are other things; by getting into the machining I was able to reduce the scrub radius; had to have work done on both the stub axle and the hub assy to do that, but it worked out well.
I would think there is more selection now in the 5x100 than the 4 3/4"........... I have looked quite a bit and it is hard to find the offset I need. THAT is the shortfall. There are lots of wheels avail but not when I want something a bit different for offset.

I can get custom wheels made up for a very reasonable price but i will worry about that once it is on the road.

If you where going to do it all over what Wilwood calipers (front and rear) and rotors would you use, or would you go with Vette rotors and rear calipers with Wilwood front calipers.

if I was to do it over again I would prob stick with the 5x100 bolt pattern. Having SAID that - see pix showing bearings comparo......
and there is a certain peace of mind that goes with the bigger bearings. They are the items that are going to take the brunt of the beatings that bigger brakes etc will put on each corner.

this is a nice group photo.....
shows my modified spindle in the back; the cut down camaro hub on the left and a stock fiero rotor on the right.
Now - the bearing family; from left to right:
on the camaro hub is the camaro Inner bearing (the biggest one)
to its right, in order; are the camaro outer, the fiero outer then the fiero inner. Note that the small camaro OUTER is just about exactly the same size as the fiero INNER (its biggest one)........
just a little point; but I am SURE I'll never have to think about bearings again.
but anyway

next is a lousy pic of the 12" vette rotor and the fiero rotor assy again; no surprise. It's bigger.

but here is a bit to think about:
a pic showing the overlap:

and here is how much it is:

over an inch and a half; which is about the entire new pad width. So the entire fiero stock brake is just a 'spacer' in the new system.

Would I do it again?
prob not. but as I say that, I have two more camaro spindles that I am going to take into the machine shop next wk to see if he can use the stub axles to make me some 1 1/2" dropped spindles. The stub axle stuff is pretty tough material, according to him; don't fool around with mild steel....

I might consider keeping the fiero basics; use it for a hub; use a slip on rotor like the vette; I would definitely use wilwoods - just so easy to put in and super brakes and pretty inexpensive and I would use what I am doing now on the rear. Caddy/Toronado calipers with ebrake and Lebaron rotors. Legal and not too hard to put on I don't think.

I am upgrading the master cyl but might have to juggle that, depends on how things work out. I also don't mind the idea of getting a proportioning valve and using it (to get set up).
All this stuff is surprisingly inexpensive and pretty good quality too. Oh yeah; I am hoping to do lapping/track days on my car and I WILL abuse the brakes if that does come about. So that is a basis for my choices.

I also have had various cars in the past that had the single thickness rotors like the fiero and I simply am not happy with them. I have had brand new (but run-in) rotors warp on a single panic stop. Damn. Until you replace them, the steering wheel shakes and driving is miserable..... so that is another background piece of info.
hope this helps.

gp

Thank you so much for the insights and information.

Like you said going to the bigger bearings might be a little difficult to do, but there is nothing that replaces the security of having them.

One last question though, what Wilwood calipers (part number or model) did you use.

I am thinking of using Vette caliper all around, Wilwwod front and 96 Vette rear (to get the E-brake) calipers, and a Vette master cylinder to try keep a balanced system. I am thinking that if I would keep the Fiero master cylinder is wouldn't give me enough volume.

well Wilwood makes all kinds of calipers to fit various needs and budgets. Keep in mind that the pads are kind of expensive and that you prob want to get a 'street' pad; ie NOT a race pad as they need to be warmed up or they do NOT work. No good for street.
They also make their calipers to fit (it seems) 3 common rotor thicknesses so you have to coordinate/select them to suit each other.But one you could look at is the Forged Billet Superlites; they are in the $140 ballpark price I think at Willwood so prob less at the parts guys. They have dust seals - not all of them do, so watch for that.
I don't know anything about vette rear calipers so can't comment on them or what it would take. I am going with the caddy ones and I am sure they will be fine.
You owe it to yourself to pick up a $19.95 book on brakes and read about master cyl's and balancing etc etc; one mistakenly ordered part and it pays for itself. It is pretty interesting and good to know. I am going with a chev pickup master; bigger bore but identical body as the fiero (yup!) - you have to swap the reservoirs on top is all. I am also replacing ALL my brake lines incl good quality stainless at the wheels etc.
Read up on it; it is pretty interesting andyou don't want to make any mistakes with this!!!
good luck
gp