I've got a '85 4-spd muncie I want to install. I have an '84 4-spd also, which I am going to take the 4.10 final drive out of, and install into the '85. I'd like to "freshen" up the trans. never opened a trans before. are there "rebuild" kits? or do I just get parts as needed? my main concern is the syncro's, the seals, and any shifter bushings. should I just go down to a local trans shop and ask? be a great time for LSD also.

Free bump for you, 'cause I'm interested too.

I'm in a similar boat--I have a 3.65 Muncie set aside for a project, and I'd like to install a Phantom Grip kit, inspect & refresh the internals (particularly the diff. carrier bearings) before using it.

I was going to shop around at a number of local transmission shops for any needed parts, and most likely have them take care of the diff. carrier bearings (apparently a rather unique tool is needed to measure the amount the bearings need to be shimmed).

I'd rather to the rest of it myself though. Why pay someone else to do the work when I can get some amusement from doing it myself? I have the service manual for an Olds Calais which includes the teardown & some general specs for a 5spd, FWD Muncie^*, but that's the closest I've been able to get so far to any great detail about the Fiero's 4spd.

edit: spotted this in another thread just now:

quote Originally posted by RacerX11: Bearings and seals are available at any parts store, and the synchros and blocker rings are still available from GM (albeit pricey).

^*edit: after closer examination of that Calais manual, the "5spd FWD Muncie" appears to be none other than the 5-speed Muncie-Getrag 282. Different beast entirely.

[This message has been edited by dguy (edited 02-17-2006).]

I have ~20 pages scanned in from a 1984 Citation service manual detailing rebuild of the 4-spd Muncie. Other than the linkage differences, and the later Fiero V6 transmisison using a 1-piece 3rd/4th gear, everything else should apply to the Fiero 4-spd. I could zip them up and send them if you want them.

Marty

quote Originally posted by RacerX11: I have ~20 pages scanned in from a 1984 Citation service manual detailing rebuild of the 4-spd Muncie. Other than the linkage differences, and the later Fiero V6 transmisison using a 1-piece 3rd/4th gear, everything else should apply to the Fiero 4-spd. I could zip them up and send them if you want them. Marty

I do, could you send that file to me too please ???

send it to ales@megacable.com.mx

Thansk a lot for your help ...
Ales

http://drivetrain.com/

quote Originally posted by CC Rider: http://drivetrain.com/

Here is the direct link to the 4-spd Muncie parts at drivetrain.com: http://drivetrain.com//saginawM19.html

They only carry bearings and seals, which are readily available locally. The only source for synchros and blocker rings are GM. I have a spreadsheet at home listing the part numbers for all these parts, I'll try to post it this evening.

Marty

LOL, could you zip them to me too. Ive got a 3.32 citation tranny coming to swap internals into my v6 4spd.

justin.c.rinearson@us.army.mil

I have the scanned pics converted to a 22-page, ~1.3MB zipped PDF file, and emailed off to the three people who have requested it. If there is anybody else interested in a copy, let me know by sending me an email at mdurbanc@yahoo.com

Marty

quote Originally posted by RacerX11: I have the scanned pics converted to a 22-page, ~1.3MB zipped PDF file, and emailed off to the three people who have requested it. If there is anybody else interested in a copy, let me know by sending me an email at mdurbanc@yahoo.com Marty

hey marty, wouldnt mind a copy, myemail is aaronrus@earthlink.net

quote Originally posted by RacerX11: I have the scanned pics converted to a 22-page, ~1.3MB zipped PDF file, and emailed off to the three people who have requested it. Marty

Got it, and its great, thanks for sending it to me, +'s for you ...

Greetings ...
Ales

Another part which is difficult to find is the SHIM SET used with the special tool. I don't think the rebuild kits include these; they were available from GM, but last time I checked they were no longer in the system. I've heard that there is a MOPAR part which will work, but I don't have a part number. Anyone???

Racerx11, I got mine, thanks man!!!\

BTW, can you send me tha link to your webpage???

[This message has been edited by Rhino88gt (edited 06-17-2005).]

Put me down for a copy....

I just e-mailed you @yahoo.

Thanks in advance....and a +

David

quote Originally posted by Rhino88gt: Racerx11, I got mine, thanks man!!!\ BTW, can you send me tha link to your webpage???

No problem. I'm sorry, but I don't have a webpage.

Marty

quote Originally posted by RacerX11: I have ~20 pages scanned in from a 1984 Citation service manual detailing rebuild of the 4-spd Muncie. Other than the linkage differences, and the later Fiero V6 transmisison using a 1-piece 3rd/4th gear, everything else should apply to the Fiero 4-spd. I could zip them up and send them if you want them. Marty

Hi Marty,
I have a 4.10 four speed and would very much appreciate the pages as well. Please send them to vernikrump@aol.com. Thanks!!

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I've yet to hear an explanation on how the selective shims for THREE sets of tapered rolling bearing are picked when rebuilding the 4 speed. The Getrag only uses tapered roller bearing for the differential carrier and you can shade tree the shim selection process by installing the bearings, assembling case halves and using a feeler gauge between the case half. If you don't get 0.004" to 0.006". Take it a part and start again with a different shim. This technique will not work with THREE bearings (input shaft, output shaft and differential.

The factory method in the manual uses three telescoping gauges installed simultaneously, while the case halves are bolted together on precision spacers. Even if you can find these tools, they will be well over $1000.

I suspect what the few who have actually rebuilt a four speed are doing is ignoring all this and just counting on the new bearings to be pretty close to the old ones. Sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you don't. I've replaced bearing in two Getrags. In one case no shim size change was required. In the other one it changed by 0.005". The shims for the Getrags are no longer available from GM. I cross referenced the bearing using data on the Timken site and found I could buy shims for a Dodge stratus transaxle that used the same Timkem bearings in the differential.

quote Originally posted by sanderson:The factory method in the manual uses three telescoping gauges installed simultaneously, while the case halves are bolted together on precision spacers. Even if you can find these tools, they will be well over $1000.

Guess again. I doubt the telescoping gauge tool went for $1000 even when new. Do some looking around and you can pick one up used on Ebay for ~$50 or less. I picked up one for $2.50 (it cost me more to ship than to purchase) Search for J-26935, the Kent Moore part number. In fact, there is an auction going right now with 6 days left, starting bid is $5 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item =7981619565&category=33727&sspagename=WDVW

quote Originally posted by sanderson:I suspect what the few who have actually rebuilt a four speed are doing is ignoring all this and just counting on the new bearings to be pretty close to the old ones. Sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you don't.

Or maybe there are people with the proper tools, and they just aren't talking about it on here. There are more of these telescoping gauge sets floating around than you think.

quote Originally posted by sanderson: I've replaced bearing in two Getrags. In one case no shim size change was required. In the other one it changed by 0.005". The shims for the Getrags are no longer available from GM. I cross referenced the bearing using data on the Timken site and found I could buy shims for a Dodge stratus transaxle that used the same Timkem bearings in the differential.

Do you have a year/model Stratus that used these shims? Any part numbers for the shims themselves? Did you get them form a regular parts store, or did you have to go to the Dodge dealer? I need to get some for my rebuild, and wasn't sure what Status to use.

Marty

[This message has been edited by RacerX11 (edited 06-18-2005).]

I used a shim for an 1998 Stratus for my Getrag. Although there were many other years and vehicles I could have researched. My basic approach was to go to the Timken bearing website and use their search to find other cars that used the same Timken bearing in the differential. Despite information in the Fiero community that the Getrag bearing are too small there are many vehicles that use the same bearings. I then went to a local Dodge dealer and had them order one for me of about the right size. The dodge shims are a little smaller OD and don't come in as many thicknesses. They are sold individually not as a shim set like GM used to do. To fine tune the fit I also cut a 0.001" shim from shim stock with an exacto knife.

Interesting information of the J-26935 tool. This is the first mention I seen in PFF that they might be had on E-bay and also the first mention that someone had actually acquired one. I remember previous threads where people had gone to Kent Moore to buy them and they were obscenely expensive. IIRC Will here on PFF actually went to the trouble of building his own.

[This message has been edited by sanderson (edited 06-19-2005).]

I will check out those Stratus shims. BTW, there was a shim selector tool set sold here on PFF just last fall: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/023037.html

Marty

If someone can give the Timken number of the 4 speed tapered roller bearings I'll do the spadework to see what other transaxles those bearings are used in. Or anybody know if some or all of the four speed bearings are the same as the Set 11 used on thew differrential on the Getrag?

The Muncie uses the same SET11 diff carrier bearings as the Getrag. Here are the numbers I have for the 4-spd bearings and seals:

Marty

Edit: The Set4, Set5, and Set11 are the bearings that use shims to adjust the bearing pre-load.

[This message has been edited by RacerX11 (edited 06-19-2005).]

Set 4, 5 and 11 are all used in the manual 5 speed transaxle for Chrysler Cirrus and Sebring model years 1995 to 2001. Go to the parts counter at the local chrysler dealer and have them show you schematics to see if they have shims behind the races. Good luck and good hunting.

[This message has been edited by sanderson (edited 06-19-2005).]

Hmmm, speaking of Muncie 4 speed. I'm taking one out and putting in a Izuzu 5-speed. Will post in PFA unless someone's interested.

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quote Originally posted by sanderson:Set 4, 5 and 11 are all used in the manual 5 speed transaxle for Chrysler Cirrus and Sebring model years 1995 to 2001. Go to the parts counter at the local chrysler dealer and have them show you schematics to see if they have shims behind the races. Good luck and good hunting.

Thanks for the info. I will try to stop by the Chrysler dealer this week and track down available shims. It would be great to put together a list of part number for the various shims, with different thicknesses, to make it easier for people to track down rebuild parts for these things. I know I have spent a lot of time tracking this stuff down, may as well save someone else the legwork in the future.

Marty

well, got to the 4.10 assembly. theres are 2 chips in the big gear - which I guess would be the "ring" gear in a actual differential. I dont want to use this. I guess I should start looking for another '84 4-spd to tear down. dont think I can find just the ring gear, but I will try.

anyways, now that I'm looking at the gears, I was wondering if I need to change the smaller (pinion) with the ring? it sure seems like I have to, being the ring is bigger, this must mean the pinion is smaller? at first I was thinking I could just change the differential assembly.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: well, got to the 4.10 assembly. theres are 2 chips in the big gear - which I guess would be the "ring" gear in a actual differential. I dont want to use this. I guess I should start looking for another '84 4-spd to tear down. dont think I can find just the ring gear, but I will try. anyways, now that I'm looking at the gears, I was wondering if I need to change the smaller (pinion) with the ring? it sure seems like I have to, being the ring is bigger, this must mean the pinion is smaller? at first I was thinking I could just change the differential assembly.

gears are a matching pair
I have a 4.10 4speed - but its in the parts car with an iron duke in the way

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: well, got to the 4.10 assembly. theres are 2 chips in the big gear - which I guess would be the "ring" gear in a actual differential. I dont want to use this. I guess I should start looking for another '84 4-spd to tear down. dont think I can find just the ring gear, but I will try.

I've got a 4.10 speed I took out of a parts a cars I bought. Odometer had 103K on it. Car wasn't running when I bought it. I'll sell it for $75 plus shipping. I could split the case first and do a visual on the ring and pinion.

quote Originally posted by sanderson: I've got a 4.10 speed I took out of a parts a cars I bought. Odometer had 103K on it. Car wasn't running when I bought it. I'll sell it for $75 plus shipping. I could split the case first and do a visual on the ring and pinion.

why cant i ever find a 3.32 for that price?

quote Originally posted by sanderson: I've got a 4.10 speed I took out of a parts a cars I bought. Odometer had 103K on it. Car wasn't running when I bought it. I'll sell it for $75 plus shipping. I could split the case first and do a visual on the ring and pinion.

thanks. but, I'm pretty sure I can find one locally. but, thats just to save on shipping. I would be happy to buy just the ring & pinion gears from ya at that price.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: thanks. but, I'm pretty sure I can find one locally. but, thats just to save on shipping. I would be happy to buy just the ring & pinion gears from ya at that price.

The transaxle is at our weekend property. I'm heading there this weekend. I'll spilt the case and see what it looks like. Makes ense to just ship the ring and pinion.

quote Originally posted by sanderson: The transaxle is at our weekend property. I'm heading there this weekend. I'll spilt the case and see what it looks like. Makes ense to just ship the ring and pinion.

sure. was hoping to have something by then, but if not I'll take that.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: sure. was hoping to have something by then, but if not I'll take that.

Bad news, I split the case and removed the differential. Several chipped teeth on the ring gear and one on the pinion.

yikes. well, thanks for looking

bump to the top

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You keep knocking on the devil's door SOMEONE is going to answer!!!!!!!!

Another bump.

well, heres a follow up
I got a ring & pinion from a 4.10, and had it installed it in the '85 trans. I dont have the presses to do this myself. turns out the 1-2 synchro was crap on that trans. I then got a whole '84 trans, and just removed the guts from the 84, and stuck them into the 85 case. worked out great. am worried about the bearings, being I have no way to check the spacing, but - so far - so good. I still have the '85 3.65 gears, and am saving the 1st gear for when I have to do this again. I want the 1st gear from the '85 - its a little longer of a 1st gear. and I want to install a LSD next time too.

love the 4.10 gears

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1985 Fiero SE - Plain Red V6 Coupe
3.1 Crane272 MSD 4.10-4spd DarthChip Borla
D.A.M.M. - Drunks Against Mad Mothers

quote Originally posted by sanderson: Bad news, I split the case and removed the differential. Several chipped teeth on the ring gear and one on the pinion.

hmm would you be willing to part with the differential? I want to use the dif housing to design an LSD for the 4speed

quote Originally posted by RacerX11: Guess again. I doubt the telescoping gauge tool went for $1000 even when new. Do some looking around and you can pick one up used on Ebay for ~$50 or less. I picked up one for $2.50 (it cost me more to ship than to purchase) Search for J-26935, the Kent Moore part number.

Is only that particular Kent Moore kit suitable for the Fiero transaxles, or can others be used as well? I've come across a few Kent-Moore shim selector kits on eBay, but never that particular one. As it so happens, there's a J-33373 available at the moment.

quote Originally posted by Kohburn: hmm would you be willing to part with the differential? I want to use the dif housing to design an LSD for the 4speed

sure. I got two. the 3.65 & the 4.10 with chipped teeth. PM with shipping details.

quote Originally posted by dguy: Is only that particular Kent Moore kit suitable for the Fiero transaxles, or can others be used as well? I've come across a few Kent-Moore shim selector kits on eBay, but never that particular one. As it so happens, there's a J-33373 available at the moment.

Keep checking Ebay regularly, since one of the Muncie J-26935 units just went on November 6th: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4586635289&ru=http://motors.search.ebay.com:80/4586635289_W0QQfromZR40QQfviZ1

That particular one is designed specifically for the Muncie, since the bearing race OD/ID and length must be correct. There should also be one for the Getrag, but I do not know the number. I am sure Kent Moore made/makes one for just about every GM transmission out there. Maybe someone with the Getrag overhaul instructions can verify the part number for the tool.

Marty