Why guess about it, since your thinking about making it do something other than look nice, you may want to try this: whereas you daon't have access to a wind tunnel, you do have access to the open road. If you masking tape say 24" strands of wool (knitting stuff) to the edge of your the roof just above the rear window and maybe also tape some short ones to the edge of the wing too and then drive the car, you should get a good idea as to where the wing actually needs to be to be in undisurbed air. You may need to have someone in a chaise car snap some pictures. I think we'd all like to see them if you try it. BTW: this not something I thought up, it's an old trick used in wind tunnels before the smoke pipes became popular.

Scratch the two desighn I posted they were just suggested designs that i saw on ebay. I understand the ONLY wing outside of the whaletails is one that is ATLEAST 9" tall. Some might say it is rice but if it functions is it rice.....no, not in my book. For you guys with aerodynamic degrees what would be the best charcteristics of a spoiler for our cars?

[This message has been edited by goatnipples2002 (edited 07-25-2005).]

quote Originally posted by goatnipples2002: For you guys with aerodynamic degrees what would be the best charcteristics of a spoiler for our cars?

Since you asked...

In my opinion the best wing for downforce is any wing that get's as high as possible above the decklid, and is shaped like an inverted airfoil.

I haven't done any windtunnel testing on the Fiero, and in my opinion the string tests are unreliable. There is so much turbulence that I don't know how you could tell what the direction of the air is, let alone the downforce. The only accurate way to measure downfoce is with a strain gage. Anything else is pure speculation.

First off, 2' long streamers is too long. Mine were 18" and looky here @65 mph.

Second, the streamers will plaster themselves right up against the window, and if attached to a low wing they will be sucked toward the window, like here.

Third, although I don't have a good pic of it, the 6" streamers off the vents didn't get more than 3" off the deck and were twisted out to about 60* off center.

If I had to do it again, I would use 6" streamers off the roof, off the vents, and off the wing.

Arn

So if a wing that is roof level is actually functional then why do so many people talk $h!t? (For those who hate tall wings)

Arns85GT, I kind of thought that would be the case what with the roof ending so abruptly. Looks like it has to be real high or just for cosmetics. The fastbacks won't fair any better even though they look more aero from a side view. Even if you do put one way up there, you'll still need to be going at a good clip for it do to much.

Okay I've been reading AGAIN.....and I was wondering about a nascar style spoiler.

It looks functions similiar to the whail tail in design I was wondering would our back windows stop this design from working properly. I thought about this because I know it has to be cheap to make out of sheet aluminum.

From what it looks like the whale tail and the nascar spoiler work on the same line of theory.

I just can't afford to buy the actual whale tail and I know that I could make this for way less, what do you guys think?

I also was wondering about a custom roof spoiler. In the September issue of Hot Rod Dave Blankenship's spec truck has a custom spoiler on the back of the truck bed. It was a spoiler mad out of a sheet of aluminum. Basically it looked like a 6" wide piece of aluminum that ran the entire length of his tailgate. It had a bend in it and it was angled like any other spoiler. This looked very cheap yet very effective. Just wondering if the same theories could be applied to the top of our cars right above the rear window right on the edge?

I guess both of these spoilers would look pretty much the same just on different scales. Any opinions?

[This message has been edited by goatnipples2002 (edited 08-16-2005).]

I was just looking and omfg the quality of the aluminum wings on ebay has gone straight to hell.

ok lets go threw this one more time.

style and function dont always go together, just because it looks good does not mean its going to function the way you think it should, just because it looks good on paper doesnt mean it will work.

yes the original spoiler on these was never supposed to be functional. just look good.

first of all you have about 500 lbs of engine and trans in the back. even at 150 mph the weight alone of the rear end should hold it down without the need for aditional down force. if its breaking loose at those speeds your driving the car beyond its capabilitys, this car is one of the best road race cars around for slollum.

and yes aero is working at all speeds over 25 mph but in a different way, drag. one of the reasons these cars are good on gas is there wedge shape. case in point. my full size vans are like a brick wall going down the road. hence shitty mileage.

the whale tail is a functional option for these cars if you want down force, and if you want one that looks good try one off and old 76 mustang cobra 2, its fiberglass and there must be thousands in the bone yards, if you want it higher just glass it up.

and as far as ebay goes i have no faith in something i cannot see and touch, to many sob stories from people who have bought things there and dont get what they expected. i myself have never and will never buy anything from ebay, lots of people do but thats there choice.

if you want the whale tail check your local bone yards for an old cobra 2 they built them from 76 to 78.

but again to repeat myself from anouther post on anouther sight, the vent in the hood to allow more air flow should hold the front end down. and the lines on this car look just fine to me of course im 50 years old. when you put one of those tall spoilers on to me that makes it look like a riser, all show and no go. besides if you put more down force on the back you will need to open the hood more to let more air out so the front end doesnt lift.
my 86 SE has a 84 regular front end on it and doesnt need anything to keep the front end down or the rear end down.

------------------
technology is great when it works
and one big pain in the ass when it doesnt.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: yes the original spoiler on these was never supposed to be functional. just look good.

wrong - it was designed ot be functional as a spoiler - it does what it was designed to do and it does reduce the drag on the fieros as showon in the wind tunnel testing

its a spoiler not a wing

what wind tunnel test i would love to see them i know they were done a the R&D dept when they were built but i havent seen them, dont get me wrong if it is functional i would love to see the test results. i worked at a gm factory in the 80'swe saw this space frame design in 1980 because we were supposed to build the new mini van for gm and it was to be made like the fiero with the space frame, the lumina.
but for some reason we never saw any aero test, werent really needed to build the cars just design.

------------------
technology is great when it works
and one big pain in the ass when it doesnt.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

Seriously There aren't going to be any old cobras in any junkyard by me, remember some of us don't have the benefit of living it Detroit. I saw a 1980 trans am spoiler that might look pretty good on a fiero.

[This message has been edited by goatnipples2002 (edited 08-16-2005).]

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: what wind tunnel test i would love to see them i know they were done a the R&D dept when they were built but i havent seen them, dont get me wrong if it is functional i would love to see the test results. i worked at a gm factory in the 80'swe saw this space frame design in 1980 because we were supposed to build the new mini van for gm and it was to be made like the fiero with the space frame, the lumina. but for some reason we never saw any aero test, werent really needed to build the cars just design.

if you live near a decent sized library look up some of the road and track articles from 84-85. i looked at them when i was first after a fiero years back and don't remember the exact dates.

there's one article about the indy pace car where they decribe some of the aerodynamic changes bettween the stock 84 and the pace car. i think it needed to run up to about 110mph so i guess they were working at at least that speed.

then about the october issue they do a review of the 85gt where they decribe how they use the design of the pace car and give the drag coefficients of the bodywork and the wing. i don't know what speed they come into playing a real function (i guess like the pace car), but the do give some separate numbers for the wing.

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Phil T.

start where you are,
use what you have,
do what you can. arthur ashe

goatnipples i never lived in detroit worked at a factory in framingham, mass. any large yard with older cars would have a couple, 76 to 78 cobra II's they were not the shelby cobras you may be thinking of.

Philphine thanks for backing me up on the design dept useing the wind tunnel on the fiero. goatnipples and i had a disagreement on another sight about them useing the wind tunnel. i new they used it he said gm didnt care.
i dont live in a big town anymore but i will try to get back issues i probably bought them back then and dont remember. long ago and far away!

------------------
technology is great when it works
and one big pain in the ass when it doesnt.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

Here's an interesting spoiler design.. It's based on actual military technology.. Looks very effective to me..

http://www.beaterz.com/one_liners/0201/020130_f16_celica.htm

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: if it is functional i would love to see the test results.

Just get the Pontiac Performance Plus Magazine. There is a multi-page article on how the factory wing was designed (and tested) to reduce drag but didn't provide downforce. So they went with the whaletail design for the race cars. (It has plenty of pics of the wind tunnel testing.)

If you want a "functional" spoiler/wing, You need to specify which function. Some are used to reduce drag, some are for downforce, and some are designed to do both. The whaletail works good for down force and the stock wing reduces drag. The Dodge Shadow spoiler (which technically needs to be a little larger for use on a Fiero) is a combination of both downforce and drag reduction.

I personally think the stock Fiero spoiler is the best looking factory spoiler ever done in any American car by far. Period. And I don't remember of anyone bigger too. You can offset it back a little or a little higher and it will be another good looking option. Anything that resembles a metal structure does not go with the lines (read rice) of this car. Again, this is just my opinion.

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Palm Beach Fieros
http://pbfieros.tripod.com

the stock spoiler and the imsa ducktale are the only ones that I think look right on the notchback fiero

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: I personally think the stock Fiero spoiler is the best looking factory spoiler ever done in any American car by far. Period. And I don't remember of anyone bigger too.

I agree.. Our spoilers look great..

There was an American car with a bigger one.. The Dodge Daytona and Plymouth Super Bird were built as a limited production and sold at dealers so they'd qualify for NASCAR.. They had monster spoilers and they WERE functional.. The Dodge Daytona was king of NASCAR for a couple of years..

http://image24.webshots.com/25/5/58/13/26555813gdIBCtXcgR_fs.jpg (caution big image)

I think the stock wing does look very good. The car looks better with it.

When you ad a scoop on the deck the equation changes. The Mustang scoop seems to go well with the stock wing, but if you go bigger the wing ends up looking like it is tacked on. I tried lifting the wing, and that was ok, but I ended up liking the look of the Shadow spoiler more, with my style of scoop.

If I had choices, I would likely say the stock wing 1st and the Shadow spoiler 2nd. I am not too fond of the look of the whale tail, but that is just my personal taste. The IMSA wing I think also needs the IMSA body panels, but again, that is just personal taste.

Oreif has a nice look on his too.

Let's face it. With a car like the Fiero, there are options, just like dressing a beautiful woman.

Arn

there's a wing that will sit almost like that on a fiero coupe. look for a late 80's convertible mustang f40 wing from baldwin performance, they usually have an ad in the mustang mags. i got one for my chopper and the lowered roof makes the wing sit higher just about like that.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Poncho Jim:

There was an American car with a bigger one.. The Dodge Daytona and Plymouth Super Bird were built as a limited production and sold at dealers so they'd qualify for NASCARQUOTE]

I thought about that one but then that was like a tall building and thinner at the top

For a notchback the stock spoiler is okay at best. On a fast back the spoiler looks out of place, in the factory location. I am trying to increase downforce and not really increase drag.

To benefit from a fully functional spoiler you'd have to be going 150MPH or more. On Fieros ALL spoilers are for looks and IMO the factory did a pretty nice job of designing a spoiler with smooth lines which complements the Fiero design nicely. You can istall that metal spoiler if you like the looks better but don't expect any increase in handling.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds -Best
Engine Controls, ECM goodies, Chip
re-programming & odd electronics stuff

Between the 2 you picked, I like this one the best..I was going to buy it for mine,

but then I found a stock one that I liked (Thanks Arns85GT) and fit perfect with my scoop
Here's mine.

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Jay Brintnell
Owner / Design Lead - WordMark.ca Communications

White 85 Notchback - A.K.A. GodFearN
Red 85 2M4 - work in progress

You do not have to be going 150mph to take advantage of a spoiler. 75-100mph is plenty fast for engineers to test so why would we have to go faster to see any benefit. If engineers test aerodynamics at about 110mph I don't see why a more efficiently designed and better placed wing wouldn't be more effective at lower speeds or at speed (less than 150mph).

[This message has been edited by goatnipples2002 (edited 08-16-2005).]

Does anyone have any info on the porsche spoiler that raises and lowers depending on your speed?

Angle / Speed ratios would be nice to see.

Here is a pretty simple drawing, but it shows the reality we are dealing with. If you add a small spoiler to the rear, you will get minimal impact. If you want downward force it will do nadda. Looks are quite another consideration. To get downward force you need something up in the air stream or you need ground effect skirts like NASCAR uses to create vacuum under the car.

Roof wing.

quote Originally posted by goatnipples2002: I also was wondering about a custom roof spoiler. In the September issue of Hot Rod Dave Blankenship's spec truck has a custom spoiler on the back of the truck bed. It was a spoiler mad out of a sheet of aluminum. Basically it looked like a 6" wide piece of aluminum that ran the entire length of his tailgate. It had a bend in it and it was angled like any other spoiler. This looked very cheap yet very effective. Just wondering if the same theories could be applied to the top of our cars right above the rear window right on the edge?

I was thinking of something like that. Something that goes back toward the decklid. Thanks Arn that scratches my nascar spoiler, drag style wing and any low level wing/spoiler ideas. I will probably run an aluminum wing about 9" high.

What do you think about the roof spoiler idea?

[This message has been edited by goatnipples2002 (edited 08-16-2005).]

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Roof wing.

Was the roof wing for looks, or did it actually do something?

bump

The method I posted using an aluminum strip as a roof spoiler would be effective. The amount of contact area and the angle of attack would be the determining factrors of how effective it would be.

.

Still looking eh?

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1988 Fiero GT 2.8
1991 S-10 5-speed 2.8

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: I personally think the stock Fiero spoiler is the best looking factory spoiler ever done in any American car by far. Period. And I don't remember of anyone bigger too. You can offset it back a little or a little higher and it will be another good looking option. Anything that resembles a metal structure does not go with the lines (read rice) of this car. Again, this is just my opinion.

I agree 100%. I rasied mine due to clearance issues.

quote Originally posted by Kohburn: wrong - it was designed ot be functional as a spoiler - it does what it was designed to do and it does reduce the drag on the fieros as showon in the wind tunnel testing its a spoiler not a wing

You're correct. The Fiero spoiler IS functional and does just what it was designed to do: smooth the airflow at the tail of the car to reduce aerodynamic drag. This provides a higher top speed and better fuel economy - something that those "functional" erector set wings will take away.

If you want to mess with the aerodynamics of the Fiero, remember that some pretty smart people worked up the aero package to start with. When they developed the high-performance Fieros for the Indy 500, they discovered that the bumperpad body style had a problem in the front - too much lift due to the design, enough to float the front end at racing speeds. So they made some changes; the aero nose reduces lift and drag, the side skirts and spoiler reduce drag. Those Indy cars (the real ones) did 135 MPH laps at Indy with no problem.

Also remember that any wing-like structure you place in the air flow will INCREASE drag by a surprising amount.

Anyway, if you want to make a styling statement then go for it; stick an ironing board on the roof if that's what you think looks best. But if you want to go fast, you're better off with the stock aero package.

Sheesh; you see dragsters pulling parachutes down the track - how long will it be until we see a Honda go by dragging a litle Type R parachute? That wouldn't be any worse aerodynamcially than those big aluminum "downforce" wings...

hey madcurl i was wondering where u got the those vents / scoops ..whatever u call them for the decklid and hood ..they look great ...how much and where .. ...or is it only for your car ..which looks just amazing !!
thanks
matt

quote Originally posted by goatnipples2002: About spoiler/wing height http://www.aprperformance.com/techarticles_whatdiff.php The back window of our cars is one of the reasons our spoilers are obsolete. The 90* angle of the back window causes turbulent air to go over the rear decklid. This turbulent air does nothing for downforce. So Blue Shift you are correct you would need to raise the wing between 6"-1'. I guess when it comes to certain things like spoilers it depends on your generation, culture and environment.

The stock wing is designed to knock that turbulent under car air current back down. This reduces drag (very slightly) and helps the hot air from the engine box exit thru the decklid grilles for better engine cooling.
The Fiero dosen't need additional downforce on the rear end.
It has a cast iron engine back there.

quote Originally posted by Carswell...Wellscar: hey madcurl i was wondering where u got the those vents / scoops ..whatever u call them for the decklid and hood ..they look great ...how much and where .. ...or is it only for your car ..which looks just amazing !! thanks matt

Vents were custom made using stock side panel. You can buy similar ones from Fiero Warehouse or Ausi Fiero. Deck scoops are one-offs but were originally a Fiero Store deck vents.

Now back the our original topic.