I plan on upgrading to a functional spoiler but do't what style would be best. I don't want anything ricey or higher than the roof line. From what I understand a spoiler about 6"-1' is the best for my fastback design. Now what do you guys think looks best?
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03:09 AM
PFF
System Bot
$Rich$ Member
Posts: 14575 From: Sioux Falls SD Registered: Dec 2002
personally i dont like any wing stands taller than stock, and 99% of aftermarket wings look stupid TO ME
the stock wing is amazing looking, make some custom stands for the stock wing and drop the front of it down 1/2-3/4" and get dome down force out of it, and locate it another inch back from stock, it will look killer, but dont jack it waay up there it just looks wrong (in my book anyways)
I have an appache wing by JSP that is functional with 12 degrees of adjustment up or down. Originally painted black looked like crap but once painted red to match rest of car looks a lot better. I use it to create lift on the rear forcing the front to stay down and yes I know that it requires very high speeds to be of any real help but that is when I want it to help. Dan
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08:26 AM
Poncho Jim Member
Posts: 869 From: Woodlands, MB, Canada Registered: Mar 2000
Functional ? What function do you want it to perform and how will you tell when it's functioning ? Are you racing at high speeds and finding the rear end getting loose on the corners ?
I know it's personal taste, but I think the Fiero wing IS the best looking spoiler ever put on any car. It's one of the reasons I own a Fiero.
------------------ 1988 Fiero Coupe 2.5L 1990 Trans Am GTA 5.7L
[This message has been edited by Poncho Jim (edited 07-23-2005).]
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09:01 AM
86fieroEarl Member
Posts: 2203 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Jun 2002
I have an appache wing by JSP that is functional with 12 degrees of adjustment up or down. Originally painted black looked like crap but once painted red to match rest of car looks a lot better. I use it to create lift on the rear forcing the front to stay down and yes I know that it requires very high speeds to be of any real help but that is when I want it to help. Dan
Use an IMSA wrap-around wing if you're going to be driving around at 150 mph all the time.
------------------ My Web page | The Turbo Super Duty Build. You know that little voice that says it can't be done? I duct-taped mine's mouth shut and pushed it down a flight of stairs.
I think the stock wing is ugly as hell, the raised stock wings are even uglier to me, the moved back wings aren't any better to me. No matter where it is the stock wing is an eye sore to me. I drive 100+mph whenever I can, whether I am racing or just going across town. The stock spoiler is for looks It creates minimal downforce at most. I want more stability at high speeds and a better looking spoiler. I don't want a damn 747 wing.....just stylish and functional. No disrespect to anyone on their selections and tastes. I am after style but not at the expense of function or vise versa. It has to function AND improve the looks of my car. This is what I was considering.....tried to post picture using the PIP, but it wouldn't work.
or
Ebay has em for about $85 w/shipping
[This message has been edited by goatnipples2002 (edited 07-24-2005).]
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01:02 PM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
The IMSA spoiler works best. You can buy one from www.fierowarehouse.com They have 2 versions Notchback and fastback. Here are pics of one on a fastback: (Gargoyles old car.)
------------------ Happiness isn't around the corner... Happiness IS the corner. ZZ4 Powered !!
Not my taste. That whaletail Spoiler looks out of place back there to me. I was looking for more of a sports car look. Like a sports car you would see on the track. And 400 just for aspoiler.....HELL NAW. I'd rather pay $85 w/shipping for the bomz spoiler.
[This message has been edited by goatnipples2002 (edited 07-23-2005).]
IMHO, the most purely functional spoilers look retarded. Truth is, to get decent downforce you gotta get the wing up above the roofline and jack the surface area up. This usually means a big, ugly, foot tall ricer wing.
On the other hand, though not really effective, the stock wing looks really good, but that's just my opinion. The only big wing that I thought looked cool was the wing on the back of the Huffaker/Spice racecar, but only cuz it was a racecar - a street car would look ridiculous with one.
The back window of our cars is one of the reasons our spoilers are obsolete. The 90* angle of the back window causes turbulent air to go over the rear decklid. This turbulent air does nothing for downforce. So Blue Shift you are correct you would need to raise the wing between 6"-1'. I guess when it comes to certain things like spoilers it depends on your generation, culture and environment.
[This message has been edited by goatnipples2002 (edited 07-23-2005).]
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05:48 PM
The Poopsmith Member
Posts: 1154 From: Portland, OR Registered: Mar 2005
I like to say that spoilers are called spoilers cause they spoil the looks of my car but there are some tasteful looking functional spoilers out there that once I see them I'm like wow that looks really good but most of them look like crap on stock cars. I would say though that if I had to pick any spoiler that is not an original for my Fiero and not 400 dollars I liked the first picture you posted that seemed like it was real close to the decklid if it were the right width for the Fiero and not too high I would think that could look really good on a Fiero. probably better on a fastback but I would also say that the color of your car is going to make it work in terms of looks.
I hate plain aluminum spoilers black would be my first choice but if i were to put a spoiler back on my car I would try to find something that looks good for my car and paint it a color that almost makes it dissapear from the rest of the car. If you do get something that is really tall make sure you route an oil line to the top so it will shoot out oil like those old oil pump towers cause thats what its going to look like. I have never had a problem with my back end being being the culprit to bad handeling so I think a front air diffuser or front wing or anything to keep air from going underneath the car will improve your handeling the most and it will help all around as it will suck the car to the ground as opposed to push it down. I haven't heard of anybody making a full underwing for a Fiero but i think they make a car look super good and are the best handeling improvement you can do. Plus underwings should improve your highway gas mileage as it will make your car more aerodynamic (underneith the car) but I guess it will help around town to if you do 100+ whenever you can.
There are alot of photoshoper around here, just ask to have one that you like grafted to a picture and you will probably get a better sense of what it will look like before you make a monitary decision. Also use the search function to find other longer running posts of pictures of wings and you will then be able to have real pictures and names of the members who used them so if you want to know how much better that Fiero handeled after the wing was put on that person should know and would probably be happy to tell you why they gave up on the already good looks of the Fiero. Anyways that what I have to say about that.
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06:26 PM
Blacktree Member
Posts: 20770 From: Central Florida Registered: Dec 2001
If I'm not mistaken, there are 2 spoiler designs that will work with the Fiero: high-rise wing or duck-tail... for different reasons.
The high-rise wing should be positioned so the leading edge just touches the airstream from the roof, with a conservative angle of attack. The idea here is to "prop up" the roof's airstream, so it doesn't drop so quickly as it passes over the decklid. Also note that you should open up the engine grates and/or vent the decklid. This will allow hot air from the engine compartment to rise up and fill the void under the roof's airstream (and under the wing). It'll generate nice downforce. The greater the angle of attack, the more downforce, and drag, it will generate.
The duck-tail spoiler (ala IMSA Fiero or NASCAR) acts as an air dam. Oddly enough, on the Fiero it keeps air from sliding up the rear fascia and spilling onto the top of the decklid. Instead of spilling onto the deck, the air presses against the spoiler. This reduces drag. Also note that venting the decklid and/or opening up the engine grates will allow air to escape from the engine compartment and spill onto the decklid, forming a pressure bubble that helps to control the roof's airstream. The more air you can vent onto the decklid, the more upward pressure it will exert on the roof's airstream... i.e. more downforce.
Notice that both spoilers rely on generous engine/decklid venting to fill the void behind the rear window. I don't think either spoiler will work very well without it.
[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 07-23-2005).]
Thanks for the replies everybody keep em coming......
Poopsmith - In responce to the front spoiler, they do make them for our car. The only problem with them is that if your car is lowered you will scrape it on almost everything depending on how aggressive your drop is. You could also mount the lower section of another aero nose as Skitime did. You can use canards and a extractor scoop. That brings me to explain my extractor scoop. I mounted a scoop backwards and cut a hole in my hood about 7"x 8" roughly. The reason I did it because my front end would "float" at highway speeds. Now at 130mph it feels solid like I was going 60mph. What excatly do you mean by under wings?
The back window of our cars is one of the reasons our spoilers are obsolete. The 90* angle of the back window causes turbulent air to go over the rear decklid. This turbulent air does nothing for downforce. So Blue Shift you are correct you would need to raise the wing between 6"-1'. I guess when it comes to certain things like spoilers it depends on your generation, culture and environment.
YES.. Right on.. Good point.
There is a major vacuum created behind the back window.. There needs to be.. This low pressure area sucks air out the engine bay vents and provides circulation needed to cool things off. That's why our engines get so damn dusty when we drive on a gravel road. The low pressure area draws the air from under the car, past the engine and out the vents... (I live in the country.. I know about gravel roads )
I've also noticed when driving in cold weather (when it was cold enough for steam to come out the tailpipe) that the steam was sucked UNDER the spoiler towards the low pressure area at the back window. At speed, the air around a Fiero moves up from the bumper and forward over the hatch to the back window.. IMHO, You'd have to get the spoiler WAY up over the roofline for it to do any good.....
Finally.. How much downforce.. 200lbs.. 300lbs.. 500lbs... How much force can our plastic hatches endure
I'm no aerodynamicist but I have learned a few things about aerodynamics and fieros. The main thing is that when it comes to the fiero you can't speculate about what should happen or what you think will hapopen. You CANNOT TRY to apply common sense to aerodynamics.
Now on one of these other forums they actually taped strips to the rear of the car. And what happened was the strips on the rear decklid and the vents were sucked in not blown out. I did notice that once I grinded the sheets under the vents off it ran alot cooler.
Blacktree - Only thing I wanted to touch base about was that the wings are ONLY effective in nonturbulent/"clean" air, so a high rise wing is taller is it can be placed out of the vacuum. Vortec Generators are used to "prop up" the clean air.
I have added a sixpack scoop and the best look I have found is just like this one, so this is what I am in the process of installing, only mine has black chrome oval tips on a black over metalic grey GT.
I think the stock wing is ugly as hell, the raised stock wings are even uglier to me, the moved back wings aren't any better to me. No matter where it is the stock wing is an eye sore to me. I drive 100+mph whenever I can, whether I am racing or just going across town. The stock spoiler is for looks It creates minimal downforce at most. I want more stability at high speeds and a better looking spoiler. I don't want a damn 747 wing.....just stylish and functional. No disrespect to anyone on their selections and tastes. I am after style but not at the expense of function or vise versa. It has to function AND improve the looks of my car. This is what I was considering.....tried to post picture using the PIP, but it wouldn't work.
or
Ebay has em for about $85 w/shipping
Nice looking wings, but are they wide enough? They look like 52" wings. I run a 57" and it's too narrow. 57" is to the edges of the decklid.
On the "functional" wing. The stock spoiler is 100% for looks. It really does nothing. If you want wing that will do anything for you other than look sweet, the fiero's design gives you 2 options. Use a drag style wing (pic 1. "Drag" as in dragging behind your car) or a wing with at least 9" stanchions. The fiero's aerodynamics make it pointless to put a wing inside the void behind the rear window.
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04:25 AM
crzyone Member
Posts: 3571 From: Alberta, Canada Registered: Dec 2000
All I know about underwings came from other sites explaining them. They are not like front air dams but they either move air away from flowing underneith the car or channel it to pull the car down at speed. If you eliminate the uplift that your car expierences at highway or race speeds by removing the air or minimising the entire airflow from underneith the car natural air pressure from above and around your car will push it car to the ground. It is similar but not identical to Nascar stock cars which their body panels are less than an inch off the ground so very little to no air passes under that car resulting in maximum traction or else they would be flying through the air which can be witnessed when you watch one of those crashes that has a car get nose up by another car and the air from the high speeds catches the underside of the car and makes it fly. Or something like this demonstrated by a saltflat RX-7.
If I'm not mistaken, there are 2 spoiler designs that will work with the Fiero: high-rise wing or duck-tail... for different reasons.
The high-rise wing should be positioned so the leading edge just touches the airstream from the roof, with a conservative angle of attack. The idea here is to "prop up" the roof's airstream, so it doesn't drop so quickly as it passes over the decklid. Also note that you should open up the engine grates and/or vent the decklid. This will allow hot air from the engine compartment to rise up and fill the void under the roof's airstream (and under the wing). It'll generate nice downforce. The greater the angle of attack, the more downforce, and drag, it will generate.
The duck-tail spoiler (ala IMSA Fiero or NASCAR) acts as an air dam. Oddly enough, on the Fiero it keeps air from sliding up the rear fascia and spilling onto the top of the decklid. Instead of spilling onto the deck, the air presses against the spoiler. This reduces drag. Also note that venting the decklid and/or opening up the engine grates will allow air to escape from the engine compartment and spill onto the decklid, forming a pressure bubble that helps to control the roof's airstream. The more air you can vent onto the decklid, the more upward pressure it will exert on the roof's airstream... i.e. more downforce.
Notice that both spoilers rely on generous engine/decklid venting to fill the void behind the rear window. I don't think either spoiler will work very well without it.
Very well stated, I would add that even with the trailing edge Roof Wing, would also require a rear tail spoiler to prevent large amounts of backwash turbulant air coming forward over the rear deck decklid. Many people don't understand that the Fiero Wing functions as a Rear Spoiler (as GM intended it to) to minimize turbulant air backwash coming from the back side over the top, that's why it's mounted low to the deck lid. The IMSA Whale Tail took it a little further by making it a solid wall due to the higher speeds on the Race Cars, meaning at higher speeds. The Whale Tail is the best of both worlds, as it increases pressure on the back decklid, creating a pressure zone - smoothing out the airflow off the roof, and dramatically reduces any backwash air from the rear. Related the Fiero Stock Wing, higher pressure which would increase the amount of air being able to flow through the narrow passage between stock wing, and decklid. There is also an aerodynamic reason for the 2 depressions that run the width of the wing between the stantions, on the underside of the stock wing, the help slow the forward velocity of the backwash by creating a minor turbulance under the wing (which does reduce lift at higher speeds).
As said by some above, the average owner isn't going to get any benefit from any of these treatments that they will feel, because they don't push their cars to race speeds. Further more the change is very suttle, and only one who is very sensitive to the way their car handles would notice a difference with and without the spoiler on the rear.
I know for a fact the Whale Tail performs better than the Stock Wing in terms of aerodynamic air flow improvements on the Fiero GT, because I've logged some pretty darn high tripple digits speeds with it. One other thing I've noticed, is that the horizontal surface of my deck lid, is the last surface on my car to show any dirt, you'd be amazed at how clean this surface stays (no brake dust, road grim, no anything). And yes, the "grates" are removed from the underside of my engine vents.
Just watch an American LeMans, Rolex, or Trans Am race. Those wings work. Their speed is 150 mph, and the horizontal part is above the roof line. Nothing else makes any difference except in looks. Thats different IF your car has a sloping back glass....but almost any car driven on the street will not get any benefit from a wing of any kind. Most of the rice racers with the wings arent even capable of a speed fast enough for their wing do do anything.....theyre just trying to look like a Trans Am racer.......LOL.( Which is fine as long as they dont thing they can race anything else they run across)
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08:25 AM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
Not my taste. That whaletail Spoiler looks out of place back there to me. I was looking for more of a sports car look. Like a sports car you would see on the track. And 400 just for aspoiler.....HELL NAW. I'd rather pay $85 w/shipping for the bomz spoiler.
I'm sorry, I thought you were looking for "functional". Not sure what "sports cars" you are talking about on the track, But all the Fiero race cars used the wrap-around or whale tail style spoilers. Because of the flat window, Diversified Glass tested numerous spoilers and wings in a wind tunnel. The wrap-around and whale tails worked best functionally.
Well judging by the fact that I've had one wing stolen from my GT and bought two other fieros that had stolen wings, I would guess that the stock wing is very popular, and not just for Fieros.
I'll say one thing for the aluminum spoilers...they are cheap, (as in inexpensive.) You can't even get a pair of Fiero raised wing stands for twice that amount. And I'm looking on ebay now and they have them for $50 "buy it now" You gotta love mass marketing don't you?
Why does everybody think that aerodynamics only apply to 150mph? Aerodynamics are applicable at all speeds, its just the faster you go the more downforce you need. If you stick your hand out the window at any speed above 25mph and place your hand vertical with your thumb up and pinky down what happens.....DRAG occurs. Now if you put your hand at a slant what happens.....DOWNFORCE, there is pressure pushing your hand down. Now tell me aerodynamics are only useful at 150+mph. Now transfer that data to a spoiler.
The only way a spoiler is going to work on ANY vehicle is if you place it in a place of "clean"/nonturbulent air. So a higher wing is needed to achieve this. For the people who can't comprehend here is a diagram. Where must you place the wing for clean air? ANY spoiler in the vacuum does nothing for downforce, kinda where the factory spoiler is.
The whaletail might be the best functioning spoiler (so YOU say), BUT it still looks ugly as phuck.
And no I am 25 and I dislike honduhs with a passion. You must be an old fart who thinks things are perfect from the factory and anything modern is illegal. I'm from a different generation and culture than you, I like to modify not conform. Some people like technology and turbos others like big blocks and carbs. But don't put me and honduh in the same sentence that's like challenging me to a duel.
The fiero looks like an 80s car in some respects, like the spoiler. It needs some modern touches.
Nope, I'm 33. I have an IMSA spoiler on my Fiero, the kind you hate. I know one thing, I won't see another one like it around here, and for sure not on a Honda. I can step outside, close my eyes and throw a rock and hit a car with a spoiler like you posted.
I reality, a spoiler won't help in real life since nobody drives as fast as they need to for them to work. But the factory Fiero spoiler does help with fuel economy. How much pressure does it take to compress the suspension? This is when you are getting downforce.
Here's my "perfectly good car from the factory car" Stock is fine with me.
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02:06 AM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
Why does everybody think that aerodynamics only apply to 150mph? Aerodynamics are applicable at all speeds,
I agree with you, but I would go further by saying that there is not a vaccum behind the car. Just an area of low pressure. If it were a vacuum then you could spread out a deck of cards on the deckid drive all over town and they would have moved.
There is airflow over the stock spoiler and if you had a sensitive strain gauge hooked up you would measure something. I guarantee you that air flowing over an inverted airfoil is creating downforce. It has to, or I have to give back my degree in aerospace engineering. Now maybe a pound or two of downforce is not enough to notice in a change in handling, but it is measureable.
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04:20 AM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
People here have done 'string' tests with stock spoiler/wing. The air moving over it actually blows the string out towards the front of car.. Ive never seen anyone test the whale tail. Since some of it extends out the side, I could believe it would be more functional. The one on the trunk looks good if you like it there, but is about as useful as the luggage rack aerodynamicly. Id say you prob get more useable downforce by popping up your sunroof.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 07-25-2005).]
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10:07 AM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
The whaletail might be the best functioning spoiler (so YOU say)
No, Actually Diversified Glass who designed and wind-tunnel tested the Fiero IMSA race car bodies. Get a "Pontiac Performance Plus" and read what testing was done and why.
As for looks, that is a personal preference. The Bomz wing pictured above looks cheap and gaudy to me. I wouldn't put it on any car.
I know for a fact that the stock spoiler in the stock location doesnt do anything for downforce. How do I know. Well somehow my trunk latch switch that tells you when the door is ajar moved just a hair. It moved enough that the light would come on even though the decklid was closed. All it took was me laying my hand on it without pushing down and the light would go off. While driving the light was on except for when i would hit a bump.
The stock spoiler is just for looks and its going to take some serious experimental data to convince me otherwise.
------------------ Chris 3.4 TDC SWAP COMPLETED...this is going to be a fun car
I know for a fact that the stock spoiler in the stock location doesnt do anything for downforce. How do I know. Well somehow my trunk latch switch that tells you when the door is ajar moved just a hair. It moved enough that the light would come on even though the decklid was closed. All it took was me laying my hand on it without pushing down and the light would go off. While driving the light was on except for when i would hit a bump.
The stock spoiler is just for looks and its going to take some serious experimental data to convince me otherwise.
the coeficient of friction for the auro notchback and fastback is lower with the stock "wing" spoiler --- it is a spoile r- was designed and implemented as a spoiler to reduce drag - your little test doesn't mean a whole lot either since there only has to be more pressure under the decklid than on top - an increase in downforce is also a reuction in lift.. reducing the lift on the back end is effectively downforce..
it does make a difference at speed - atleast from my time spent at speeds up to 145
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