I tried searching for any info about flow tests that have been done on the Fiero intake. I've read lots of posts about how poorly it flows and how gasket matching and/or extrude honeing may help but, has anyone done any serious porting and testing on one. I don't thing there's anything wrong with the runner sizes or lengths but that the restriction lies in the abrupt 135 degree turn the air has to make when it goes from the upper to middle plenum. You look at the outside of the manifold and it looks like it makes a nice smooth transition but, when you take them apart and look inside, the runners don't follow the casting. The upper runners only make about a 45 degree bend before ending. The middle plenum isn't too bad as it doesn't have as many degrees to go. On the plus side, the upper plenum is nearly an half inch thick at the end of the runners leaving lots of room for porting. After first gasket matching and porting the upper, middle and lower intakes and having my TB and upper plenum bored out by Darrell Morse, I went back to my upper with my highspeed 3 different times until I had removed approximately 1/4 inch of material from the outer radius of the turn at the ends of the runners. I also took out as much as possible from the outer radius of the middle section. Now the inside of the runners closely match what you see when look at the outside. This is all for the 3.4 push rod I'm building for installation this fall. I'd love to see a flow test comparison between stock and what I've done but will have to settle for knowing I've done all I can believe it will help.

[This message has been edited by triker (edited 08-18-2005).]

Good effort, many have tried this as well as I have, but it won't really help. The darrell ported intake is I belive only 50 cfm better. The problem is in the design it self.

[This message has been edited by goatnipples2002 (edited 08-20-2005).]

The Fiero Intake could be better, and most of the problems are located in the upper plenum. The truelo intake is an amazing piece of work granted, but it is my goal to build a Fiero with a stock looking motor that will perform. Thats why I went with the 3.4 for my swap, I will get a little bit more power, more torque and it will look stock.

I am taking the stock intake off the car tonight and giving it to an Engineering buddy to do some work on. We have been talking for years about how we were going to make this thing work, and it is true, the middle intake isn't bad, but the upper is horrible, and even the lower could use a little work.

I would like to make my stock intake perform like a Truelo which aint gunna happen, but even if I can get it to perform close to as well and look stock, then I will be happy.

one of the things I did after I ported/gasket matched my plenums, was to take a 1" wide, by 3' long strip of sandpaper, and feed it thru the upper plenum, so it goes in runner 1, and comes out 2, then, take the lower plenum, put it together, while feeding the sandpaper strip thru, so the strip went all the way around & thru. put in 2 bolts to hold together. then pulled it back 'n forth to really smooth the radius & transition between the plenums. then repeated thru each opposing pair of runners.

[This message has been edited by Pyrthian (edited 08-18-2005).]

One day when I find the time, I'm going to try an acid approach to porting that intake system. It sounds hair-brained but when I first started working with turbos I unaware of the compressor wheel composition dropped one in a cup of muriatic acid used for cleaning concrete in an effort to clean wheel, immediately it started boiling and although it was only submersed for a few seconds the leading edges of the compressor wheel had been dissolved to a thickness to thin for dependable use.

My plan was to take the middle intake plenum, close off the bottom end and protect the top mounting surface with paint and fill one runner at a time and allow the acid to do its work until it stopped boiling and then take a measurement to see how much the inside area increased. The chemical reaction produces aluminum chloride and hydrogen along with whatever else is in the mix. I would also have to take a further step after the process to neutralize the remaining surface and then polish it.

I believe with very careful planning this would work very well and would probably provide a pretty even result if exposure time were monitored and kept even across the runners. I might even try to conduct a test by dropping a piece of aluminum casting in the acid after measuring it and checking to see how much of it is dissolved away within a given amount of time

The amazing results of the Trueleo intake are what lead me to believe that there are gains to be found in the stock intake. If there is 2000 usable rpm's and 20 more horse power in the Trueleo, then there are certainly a few more of each in the stock intake if you remove enough material from the right places. Like I said, I don't beleive it's a matter of runner size or length but the smoother runner design that makes the Trueleo work. I'm considering making some 1/2" aluminum plates to got between the upper and middle plenums to further smooth out the runners into a sweeping turn. As for the bored TB and plenum, it measures out to 20 percent more thottle opening and I don't think that's something to scoff at.

Good luck to you guys, but not to bring you down many have tried, MANY have failed to get the fiero intake to flow enough for the 2.8 to make power at 6k and the 3.4 needs more air.

[This message has been edited by goatnipples2002 (edited 08-20-2005).]

You and I are thinking alike. If only you could get that upper plenum to have some positive flow characteristics you would notice a difference for sure. I am glad there is someone else out there that sees some potential in the stock intake. I am buying a couple of sets just to see what I can do with them, it may be a waste, but at least I will get a product at the end that will provide more performance while still having that Fiero look.

Save yourself some trouble. Bolt on a turbo and put high density compressed air into the engine. Compressed air = more air volume in the same space.
If you don't want to do that and stay with a N/A mode, that Trueleo manifold does show some potential, but IMO its so Ugleeeeeeee.
Chris West custom rebuilds the Fiero intake plenum to flow more air but the passages look to be the same size, so I have doubts about the net flow gain. It would seem that even extrude honing would only produce minimal gains as you are limited to how much metal can be removed to improve flow.
The 4bbl mainifold once made by Edelbrock looks like it flows the best but they are hard to find and expensive when you find them. . We have one here in the shop with a 390CFM Holly on it but carburetion is something that we stay away from over here. We've read here that Orief has had success on his 3.4L carbureted engine but we still presfer EFI. .

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87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds -Best
Engine Controls, ECM goodies, Chip
re-programming & odd electronics stuff

Dennis, can you measure the runner size on the Edelbrock? I'll say it one more time, or at least until someone prooves me wrong, I don't think the runner size on the stock manifold is the problem. It's the squished down effect of making the air change direction so abruptly. I have an Edelbrock big block Dual Plane in my shop and the primary runners on it aren't as big as the runners on the Fiero but they are a straight shot into the heads.

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Save yourself some trouble. Bolt on a turbo and put high density compressed air into the engine. Compressed air = more air volume in the same space. If you don't want to do that and stay with a N/A mode, that Trueleo manifold does show some potential, but IMO its so Ugleeeeeeee. .

got to agree that has got to be the ugleest thing i have ever seen, stick with the stock unit port and polish it and turbo it. if you got to have more power.

------------------
technology is great when it works
and one big pain in the ass when it doesnt.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

We have looked at the design of the intake, and the upper plenum is where the problem originates. The air is immediately slowed the minute it enters the plenum, leaving slow moving air to travel the rest of the way. The Trueleo makes power, and it makes power by simple engineering. Give the air a smooth path to follow and it will not loose as much velocity as it would if it were forced to make abrupt changes in direction.

I have worked on stream relocation projects and water is much like air. Velocity of water when the natural meandering pattern is altered will loose a significant amount of velocity as the kinetic energy of the water is transferred to the obstacle. Same thing is happening inside of the intake and robbing potential airflow.

Fix this abrupt change in direction and you will have more positive flow to the remaining components of the intake.

I am not saying it can be easily accomplished or even completed at all, but I plan or re-designing the upper plenum and porting the lower portions as well as a throttle body with a functional ram air scoop to at least make a portion of the power of the Trueleo.

I guess we will find out

OK, granted it's not the most beautiful thing ever made, but I take exception with it being called ugly, especially the latest version with way fewer welds and nicer turns. Now if you look at the stock intake with an engineer’s eye, that's almost ugly!
BTW: lots of folks like the functional race-car look. What with its internal velocity stacks and such, it looks cool inside too. For me and many others, when we want more power, we fix the problem right and almost forget about what it looks like. Now if money was of no concern (and believe me that is not the case with Fiero people) we perhaps could have made it little prettier. Also, if you apply that same (keep it stock looking ) mindset to the Fiero's stock exhaust headers, you'll lock yourself into a really poorly designed system, one that to me looks more like it belongs on a model T Ford than a V6.
BTW: We did flow bench the stock intake and you're more than welcome to look at numbers on tureleo.com.
Sorry folks, but sometimes you just have to vent a little.

Hey man, you guys did something great with that intake. You gave the Fiero breath, and don't get me wrong, its a great piece of work, and its no the ugliest thing around, but when you are trying to keep an engine somewhat stock looking, that intake is just a bit off.

Your flow numbers are proof of how well that baby works, and it does look alot better now without all the welds. If I was building a 60 degree engine with nothing but performance in mind, then there isn't any other part that I would strap to my engine. Your intake is amazing, just not what I am seeking for my car. But remember, I will most likely give up on trying to improve something that is too far off for improvement and end up buying one of your intakes anyways.

Take it easy

quote Originally posted by Francis T: BTW: We did flow bench the stock intake and you're more than welcome to look at numbers on tureleo.com.

www.trueleo.com

quote Originally posted by Francis T: OK, granted it's not the most beautiful thing ever made, but I take exception with it being called ugly, especially the latest version with way fewer welds and nicer turns. Now if you look at the stock intake with an engineer’s eye, that's almost ugly! BTW: lots of folks like the functional race-car look. What with its internal velocity stacks and such, it looks cool inside too. For me and many others, when we want more power, we fix the problem right and almost forget about what it looks like. Now if money was of no concern (and believe me that is not the case with Fiero people) we perhaps could have made it little prettier. Also, if you apply that same (keep it stock looking ) mindset to the Fiero's stock exhaust headers, you'll lock yourself into a really poorly designed system, one that to me looks more like it belongs on a model T Ford than a V6. BTW: We did flow bench the stock intake and you're more than welcome to look at numbers on Trueleo intake Sorry folks, but sometimes you just have to vent a little.

ok so now its my turn to vent a little.
the pics on your sight show a complete lack of workmanship or quality control, one or both. you have mig spater all over no self respecting fabricater would allow that out off the shop never mind have pictures taken of it, and your price is outrageous $600 for that is just plain robbery whether it works or not, has anyone even bought one of these monstrousities?
never thoght much of enginers they dont live in the real world. "but it looks good on paper" makes me sick. i dont know how many times i have been told by an enginer it works on paper but then when you go to put it together nothing works.
don't get me wrong it probly does work, who knows anything is posible has anyone on here bought one?
besides how about porting and polishing the intake thats on there? glass bead the inside of the manifold, to smooth the flow chambers.

------------------
technology is great when it works
and one big pain in the ass when it doesnt.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: ok so now its my turn to vent a little. the pics on your sight show a complete lack of workmanship or quality control, one or both. you have mig spater all over no self respecting fabricater would allow that out off the shop never mind have pictures taken of it, and your price is outrageous $600 for that is just plain robbery whether it works or not, has anyone even bought one of these monstrousities? never thoght much of enginers they dont live in the real world. "but it looks good on paper" makes me sick. i dont know how many times i have been told by an enginer it works on paper but then when you go to put it together nothing works. don't get me wrong it probly does work, who knows anything is posible has anyone on here bought one? besides how about porting and polishing the intake thats on there? glass bead the inside of the manifold, to smooth the flow chambers.

What ARE you talking about?

1) I went back and looked at all the pics and I don't see any of the MIG spatter you're talking about. Unless I'm mistaken, they TIG weld it anyway, which I personally find works considerably better on aluminum anyway.

2) $600 is plenty reasonable. This isn't an Edlebrock, they don't have huge resources to drop into making an easy to replicate part. Each one is hand built. And that would be after they spent a year designing and building the prototype. With all the curves they have to deal with, as well as the change from round ports to rectangular ones and the ludicrous confines of the Fiero engine set up, that price ain't bad. Look up the WCF Performance Manifold Dennis was talking about, its a moddified stock upper plenum and they want $700 for it.

3) Apparantly, you did not read the website or the thread here on PFF. The new intake was tested on the flow bench as well as the dyno against the stock manifold and the numbers speak for themselves. The stock intake does not compare, period.

4) Several people here have bought them, and I will be placing my order by the weeks end. You're welcome to come out and try a comparison on my car and see for yourself.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: What ARE you talking about? 1) I went back and looked at all the pics and I don't see any of the MIG spatter you're talking about. Unless I'm mistaken, they TIG weld it anyway, which I personally find works considerably better on aluminum anyway. 2) $600 is plenty reasonable. This isn't an Edlebrock, they don't have huge resources to drop into making an easy to replicate part. Each one is hand built. And that would be after they spent a year designing and building the prototype. With all the curves they have to deal with, as well as the change from round ports to rectangular ones and the ludicrous confines of the Fiero engine set up, that price ain't bad. Look up the WCF Performance Manifold Dennis was talking about, its a moddified stock upper plenum and they want $700 for it. 3) Apparantly, you did not read the website or the thread here on PFF. The new intake was tested on the flow bench as well as the dyno against the stock manifold and the numbers speak for themselves. The stock intake does not compare, period. 4) Several people here have bought them, and I will be placing my order by the weeks end. You're welcome to come out and try a comparison on my car and see for yourself.

1) well if they tig it its the worst tig weld i have ever seen. look at the air inlet tube flang around the tube is all spater that was never cleaned up. those little balls on the tube.
2) if you want to spend $600 on an intake go for it, with what i read on there sight it didnt gain enuf for me to blow that kind of money, not worth it, i did read it. i'm not a fan of high end rpms, way to many rpms. the engines were not made to go that high.
3) like i said the gains arent that much except on the high end and i dont need or want to run that high into the rpm range.
4) several people have them, wonderful. i think it was PT Barnum that said " theres a sucker born every min."
$600 dollars put in other engine mods could get you a more reliable engine without that gross looking thing.
just my opinun, and i am entitled to it
besides if several people out of the thousands have bought one thats not a lot, lets say you mean 20 out of 20,000 people thats not even 1 tenth of one percent.just like i said just my opiniun, and i am entitled to it. you like it you spend your money on it. i wont be!

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technology is great when it works
and one big pain in the ass when it doesnt.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

$600 aint too bad when you look at the cost of the WCF's intake, although the WCF intake comes with a larger throttle body.

Function over fashion, I think they did a good job, it works but its not the most attractive thing out there. I am sure they will soon post so other Dyno numbers on some different engines espically modified engines that require more air.

Its not for me, but I will admit it's the best we got right now for the EFI system.

[This message has been edited by Oversteer (edited 08-19-2005).]

How interesting are some uninformed newbie posts Look at this old thread for some experiments and real dyno results. Not just BS bashing. Other than a comlpete different engine, Truleo seems to be the only tested/proven option for a true better flowing intake manifold. Others please bring flow/dyno #s of yours to be believable

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20050119-2-047158.html

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Palm Beach Fieros
http://pbfieros.tripod.com

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: 1) well if they tig it its the worst tig weld i have ever seen. look at the air inlet tube flang around the tube is all spater that was never cleaned up. those little balls on the tube. 2) if you want to spend $600 on an intake go for it, with what i read on there sight it didnt gain enuf for me to blow that kind of money, not worth it, i did read it. i'm not a fan of high end rpms, way to many rpms. the engines were not made to go that high. 3) like i said the gains arent that much except on the high end and i dont need or want to run that high into the rpm range. 4) several people have them, wonderful. i think it was PT Barnum that said " theres a sucker born every min." $600 dollars put in other engine mods could get you a more reliable engine without that gross looking thing. just my opinun, and i am entitled to it besides if several people out of the thousands have bought one thats not a lot, lets say you mean 20 out of 20,000 people thats not even 1 tenth of one percent.just like i said just my opiniun, and i am entitled to it. you like it you spend your money on it. i wont be!

Well I am by no means an expert on welds, its only a hobby for me, but they look fine to me. I think you're being a bit of a perfectionist. The labor involved in cleaning everything up to meet your standards would only raise the cost more.

I'm curious as to what your aversion to high end RPMs is. The big difference is 4000rpms to red line, a place where the stock motor sucks. Thats almost 2000 wasted rpms. If you don't mind shifting at 4k max all the time, more power to you. However, if you look at the dyno chart on the site, power is up across the board. Theres a significant increase in area under the curve all the way up. Thats more power across the whole RPM range, not just at high rpms. And really, we're talking about taking the engine to red line here, not 8k rpms. They ARE made to go to redline. The redline is set a little low by the manufacturer because they know people are gonna push the engine that hard, so they want to give you a cushion so you're not right at the limit of grenading the engine if you hit red line.

The more I read your post, the more I wonder if you looked at the dyno graph at all. The peak horsepower moved to 4500 rpms. Thats just over 2/3s of the way up the revs, not ridiculously high at all. More over, the peak torque increases and stays high to 4000 rpms. Torque is what gets you moving in the first place. Torque is the first 1/8th mile, horsepower is the second. The gains are 16 horsepower and 7 lb-ft of torque over the stock engine, not to mention the area under the curve. Show me any other mods you can do for $600 that will make that kind of proven bolt-on power. Hell, show me a "more reliable engine" that you could get and install for that price.

On another note, I think you're forgetting how small the market is that you're looking at. This is Fieros we're talking about. There were only half a million made, and the majority were 4 bangers. Of those that are V6s, how many are still around, much less on this board and looking to upgrade? The numbers keep getting smaller. Thats why they're branching out and making them for F-Bodies as well.

As for how it looks, to each their own. I don't think it looks any uglier than the stock plenum, which is by no means pretty. Looks just as spidery and odd, though in my eyes, it looks much more free flowing and functional than the crushed down stocker. Just my opinion.

Here's the dyno chart for you. If that doesn't look like a large increase across the board to you, you don't know what you're looking at.

And heres the flow numbers:

Valve lift .100" .200" .300" .400" .500"
stock intake CFM 55.945 106.88 124.415 131.93 139.445
Trueleo Long runner CFM 59.786 111.055 130.26 144.455 146.125
Trueleo Short runner CFM 62.625 114.395 133.6 146.96 146.96
no intake-head CFM 64.295 116.9 133.6 146.96 146.96

The system that is outlined in the link is better than stock, but the problem of the flat runners in the upper plenum are the problem. If you were to increase the volume and gradually slope the runners you would notice a larger increase while combining a porting job to the lower units.

Its not rocket science to determine how air moves and how to increase its flow. With the right amount of time and material you could get a better than 2.5 peak horse power increase out of a modified stock intake plenum.

not gonna get into this i say its ugly you say its not. opinions vary buy it you want iwont

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technology is great when it works
and one big pain in the ass when it doesnt.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

Well I was so angry today after reading that we’re supposedly ripping people off, that I starting writing this big response with facts to prove the contrary. Then I read PFF tonight and saw what Fastback86 and others said and shelved my long response. But I would like to say this; people like this that falsely accuse others of being thieves and liars, and that’s just what you did, hurt everyone including yourself. Whereas others contemplating risking their time and lots of money to make something new for our Fieros available everyone, may think twice before going forth. It’s hard enough to break even or make a profit when your product exceeds all its goals, to have to worry about people bad-mouthing it without facts discourages many from taking the chance. I respect that fellow’s right to not like what it looks like, but to call us thieves and a liars……… We sold quote a few intakes now including many one-off special units and haven't had a single customer complain that they don't deliever fully as promissed.

Frank. Just to clear the air, I believe that your Trueleo is made and sold by an honest company and performs as advertised. However, it's not going to win any prizes in the show catagory. I'd try your product if I was running a race only Fiero, but at the shows where all of the decks are open, I want something good looking as well as functional. A rectangular center section would improve the looks as well as a smoothing of the rough weld joints. Not to hurt your feelings but that manifold is hideous looking.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds -Best
Engine Controls, ECM goodies, Chip
re-programming & odd electronics stuff

I had no intentions of starting any kind of flame war when I made this post. I know that the time and material along with the cost of owning and operating the equipment required to hand assemble the Trueleo intake makes it's price reasonable. And as far as looks go, If you're after peformance, who cares. If you want to show your car, just stick the stock manifold back on. I just wondered if anyone had tested a modified Fiero intake against a stock one. Francis has a flow baseline for the stock manifold on his site and after removing what must be a pound of aluminum from my upper, middle and lower intakes, I wonder how mine would compare. Especially if I were to put a 1/2 inch spacer in between the upper and middle to make the change in direction smoother.

quote Originally posted by triker: I had no intentions of starting any kind of flame war when I made this post. I know that the time and material along with the cost of owning and operating the equipment required to hand assemble the Trueleo intake makes it's price reasonable. And as far as looks go, If you're after peformance, who cares. If you want to show your car, just stick the stock manifold back on. I just wondered if anyone had tested a modified Fiero intake against a stock one. Francis has a flow baseline for the stock manifold on his site and after removing what must be a pound of aluminum from my upper, middle and lower intakes, I wonder how mine would compare. Especially if I were to put a 1/2 inch spacer in between the upper and middle to make the change in direction smoother.

i had considered the same thing with mine as far as the war "forgive me for haveing an opinun"
belive me i know how much all the equipment and time costs i have a small fab shop myself in my garage. just for personal use and the farm. and i have to agree if the numbers are there it would be good for track use but not for me. i dont run 120 mph anymore, at least not like i used to and my SE is an every day driver. but i have been a iron/worker, welder, fabricator for the last 15 years and know qualitty work and this intake is not something i would buy for street use.

------------------
technology is great when it works
and one big pain in the ass when it doesnt.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

When I get to rebuilding my 3.4 in the next couple years, I plan on sending my manifold down to get extrude honed. I too want to keep the engine looking stock. Has anyone here tried extrude honing one of these manifolds yet?

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'88 Fiero GT - 3.4L GM Crate engine
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/707857
'91 GMC Syclone - #449
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2067330

The dyno shows a 14hp/6tq gain for a stock 3.4.....I could get that with a cam. $625 is very steep.....lower the price.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: several people have them, wonderful. i think it was PT Barnum that said " theres a sucker born every min."

Calling me a sucker?

Fine.

You're an ass.

The difference in how my car runs with this thing is amazing.
If you don't care anything about revs, you obviously don't care anything about making power. Why are you even reading a thread about modding any intake? You should go happily about your business and leave the rest of us (who know what we're doing) alone.
BTW, this manifold allowed my car to gain 15 HP peak, and over 30 HP at 5200 RPM, which is well under the outrageous redline.

As for Frank's business ethic? Take your accusations elsewhere. Hairball.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 08-20-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Calling me a sucker? Fine. You're an ass. The difference in how my car runs with this thing is amazing. If you don't care anything about revs, you obviously don't care anything about making power. Why are you even reading a thread about modding any intake? You should go happily about your business and leave the rest of us (who know what we're doing) alone. BTW, this manifold allowed my car to gain 15 HP peak, and over 30 HP at 5200 RPM, which is well under the outrageous redline. As for Frank's business ethic? Take your accusations elsewhere. Hairball.

for once i will agree with goatnipples for 15 hp gain its not worth it. put a dam scoop on the air inlet on the side and create a ram air scoop with a larger intake hose, put anouther air inlet on the other side with a scoop you have duel ram air intakes, not rocket science, doesnt require a degree in engineering, just common sence. and as for the redline being low, fine its low, the car also needs a high flow oil pump, put that in and a 3/4 race cam along with the ram air, you got a more dependable engine in all rpm ranges.
and "the rest of you who know what you are doing" need to get off the idiotnet and into the real world, 14,000 post why the hell dont you have a real life? if you knew what you where doing you wouldnt be saying i dont know what i'm doing . you dont know who i am, what i've done or anything else.
and i still say the thing is UGLY!

------------------
technology is great when it works
and one big pain in the ass when it doesnt.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: BTW, this manifold allowed my car to gain 15 HP peak, and over 30 HP at 5200 RPM, which is well under the outrageous redline.

What are your mods? ALL of them. I want to know how many mods I need in order for the intake to double its power increase.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: you dont know who i am, what i've done or anything else.

Nor do I care.

quote Originally posted by goatnipples2002: What are your mods? ALL of them. I want to know how many mods I need in order for the intake to double its power increase.

It's a 3.4 with a stock Camaro cam (same specs as the Fiero cam). 1.6 rockers -the cheap ones. Underdrive pulley. No cat (for offroad only, of course). Sprint manifolds. Stock muffler. Bored TB. 19# injectors (The stock 15s are too small.) Appropriately tuned chip. Very basic bolt-on stuff. EGR and all other emissions equipment is still in place and functional. Still running the 195 stat.
No internal mods. No porting. (Lower manifold and head porting and maybe a cam are the next logical steps, if I decide to go there. Perhaps not.)
It's still pulling like a train at 6K. And it hasn't flown apart as some people seem to anticipate it will.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 08-20-2005).]

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: for once i will agree with goatnipples for 15 hp gain its not worth it. put a dam scoop on the air inlet on the side and create a ram air scoop with a larger intake hose, put anouther air inlet on the other side with a scoop you have duel ram air intakes, not rocket science, doesnt require a degree in engineering, just common sence. and as for the redline being low, fine its low, the car also needs a high flow oil pump, put that in and a 3/4 race cam along with the ram air, you got a more dependable engine in all rpm ranges. and "the rest of you who know what you are doing" need to get off the idiotnet and into the real world, 14,000 post why the hell dont you have a real life? if you knew what you where doing you wouldnt be saying i dont know what i'm doing . you dont know who i am, what i've done or anything else. and i still say the thing is UGLY!

Ram Air is all marketing. You can put scoops all over your car and you won't change your engine power at all. More likely, you'll slow the car down with all the extra drag from the scoops sticking out. Ram Air works if you're doing 400mph, not 65. If you don't have a degree in Engineering or some education in fluid dynamics, its easy to get suckered into the Ram Air myth.

Yes, a cam will do wonders. IF you don't mind pulling the engine out and tearing the entire upper half apart. Not exactly a bolt on piece. And, like Raydar said, with the stock plenum, you'll just hit the 4500rpm air flow limit faster. Now, put a better flowing manifold and a cam together and you can really get some power out of that little V6.

And I still don't care if its ugly or not. I think the stock manifold is ugly too, so no big difference to me.

Has anybody done a flow bench, or tried using a camaro intake manifold( the one that goes to the wrong side)? I was considering relocating the battery to the front with Archie's kit or one similiar, and attempting to use the stock 3.4 manifold when I do my 3.4 swap. Also Fastback did you ever get your trueleo?, I am really interested to see what you think.

quote Originally posted by I wear pants: Has anybody done a flow bench, or tried using a camaro intake manifold( the one that goes to the wrong side)? I was considering relocating the battery to the front with Archie's kit or one similiar, and attempting to use the stock 3.4 manifold when I do my 3.4 swap. Also Fastback did you ever get your trueleo?, I am really interested to see what you think.

Cashed my paycheck yesterday, transfering funds to PayPal as soon as I can, then placing my order. I've been waiting a long time for this. Don't worry, I didn't forget that I promised you feedback.

You have to keep in mind that the stock 2.8 intake is a tuned-port setup. And it's tuned for about 4500-5000 RPM. No matter how aggressively you port it, the power band will still drop like a rock past 5000 RPM. But porting should help throttle response and low/midrange torque.

If you want a higher power band, you need a different intake... something with shorter runners.

I still don't think anyone has taken a realy close look at the Fiero intake. If you have one in your hands with the upper and middle together, look at the designed curve of the runners as they make the transition from the upper to middle. A quick but smooth curve. Now take them apart and look at what actually happens, istead of following the outer shape, the inside of the upper plenum runners barely makes half the turn that the outside looks like it should. What the engineers designed and what the finished product turns out like can often be way different.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fastback 86:

Ram Air is all marketing. You can put scoops all over your car and you won't change your engine power at all. More likely, you'll slow the car down with all the extra drag from the scoops sticking out. Ram Air works if you're doing 400mph, not 65. If you don't have a degree in Engineering or some education in fluid dynamics, its easy to get suckered into the Ram Air myth.

QUOTE]

thats why there is a 20 hp increase in the ram air engines over the standard. stick a funnel out the window at 30 with a hose on it stuck inside the car in your face. or better yet stick your head out the sun roof and tell me there is no increase in air flow, now hit the gas and see how the airflow increases, cram that down the intake and its a poor mans turbo.
i take it you are an engeneer then.

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technology is great when it works
and one big pain in the ass when it doesnt.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.