No, actually, I changed my major. Engineering is far too boring and time consuming for my taste.

Regardless, do a search for "The Ram Air Myth," its all explained very well. The site it was originally posted on doesn't seem to be up right now (vetteguru.com). Anyway, the physics are pretty basic. The way a turbo works is to cram more air into the engine. To do that, you need a specially designed compresser spinning extremely fast. The engine is already trying to move several hundred cubic feet of air per minute. You need to make up for that huge vacuum AND cram more air in on top of that. If you could do that with a funnel, we wouldn't have turbos and superchargers. Ram Air is a waste of space. You want to cram as much air into the engine as possible. A funnel is only going to restrict airflow. Dense air won't do you any good unless you can get enough of it.

The short of it, Ram Air is a sales gimick. They don't make 20 more horsepower with it. Show me one car where the manufacturer claims that kind of gain with only a different hood. Most of them are purely cosmetic. Even the functional ones, like those on the late Firebirds, are more show than anything. The air has to make a bunch of sharp turns to get from the scoop back to the throttle body. Any power gain that any body gets from any Ram Air or Cold Air Intake kit is made by making the air intake system less restrictive. Some stock air intakes are ridiculously long, narrow, and full of sharp turns. Put a nice, big, straight pipe and a free flowing filter in instead and you'll definately get more power because the engine doesn't have to work as hard to pull air in.

The only way Ram Air could ever do any good is if you put the open end of your air intake tube into a sealed compartment and the only way for the air to get in was through your Ram Air scoop.

Ram air will only help if the flow is above and beyond the velocity at which the stock intake is already sucking in. It's not in addition to--or an accumulative effect. Any thing at or below the speed of the already moving air is a non issue.
Stick your hand out the window, Yes, it feels like a huge effect. Quickly move your hand backwards, and you've duplicated what the air is already doing at your intake. Now, if you had a huge 6' (ft) scoop out there, you'd be cramming some air in there, but you would also have the effect of a jet fighter air brake as well. You couldn't overcome the drag effect regardless of the amt of air that was being funneled into the intake.

People have tried for years to improve the air flow characteristics on this engine. Now, someone has succeeded. Congradulations are in order IMO.

quote Originally posted by goatnipples2002: Good luck to you guys, but not to bring you down many have tried, MANY have failed to get the fiero intake to flow enough for the 2.8 to make power at 6k and the 3.4 needs more air.

No streetable Fiero cam I have seen is designed to make peak power over 5200rpm. Most make there peak in the 4200-4800 range. Darrel's TB and a ported intake allow for plenty of power to be made to 5000rpm with a 3.4.

Look at my dyno chart: http://www.geocities.com/lou_dias/Fiero.html
now show me a Truleo 3.4 with a Darrel TB that has made more power than that.
Honestly, the exhaust is a bigger restriction in a 3.4 Fiero than the intake. No body seems to believe me when I say that if you have $600 to burn, burn it on real headers/crossover and a 2.5" exhaust. On a 3.4 you will see a 15-30 REAR WHEEL hp difference in peak HP.

I've dyno'd a 10rwhp gain just by removing the EGR valve on the crossover pipe and letting the exhaust flow freely there.

I'm not knocking the Trueleo at all. I'm just saying it's crippled by an exhaust that everyone ignores. I've made more hp with a stock ported intake and freer flowing exhaust than anyone with a Trueleo intake and stock exhaust.

Cost of my mods:
Sprint headers $520 (back then)
IRM Dual exhaust $200
hollow cat (my arm and a crowbar)
--------------------------------------------------
$720

the funny part is that a custom exhaust shop can build you a better 2.5" exhaust for about $600

Honstly the Sprints aren't worth the money the Fiero Store is asking for (over 600 now, yikes!). There's someone on the forum here that builds a better set of headers for under half the cost. Steve Hamm I think...

That being said, I'll eventually get a Trueleo intake...AFTER I've done all my other mods. It's a finishing piece not a starting point to get those last few extra hp. IMHO

Lou

I have a custom borla exhaust. I had a new j pipe made and put the borla XR1 muffler where the cat was. And had a tailpipe bent for me. after the j pipe it is 2.5. I will be getting the fiero store crossover and see what gains I get on my 3.4.

Just in case nobody knows the Borla XR1 series are the best mufflers developed. IMO

Where did you get the irm duals? Would I gain over what I already have?

quote Originally posted by goatnipples2002: I have a custom borla exhaust. I had a new j pipe made and put the borla XR1 muffler where the cat was. And had a tailpipe bent for me. after the j pipe it is 2.5. I will be getting the fiero store crossover and see what gains I get on my 3.4. Just in case nobody knows the Borla XR1 series are the best mufflers developed. IMO Where did you get the irm duals? Would I gain over what I already have?

From IRM. No you wouldn't benefit. IRM is out of business and it's a stock 2" design anyway, it just eliminates the muffler. If the Fiero Store cross over doesn't increase the diameter of the piping, you will get no gain.

I think the exhaust ports on the Fiero heads are 3/4". I am going to get them bored to 7/8" and get headers made to match that and a cross-over that gives me a 2.5" pipe heading down similar to the stock cross-over. There I intend to put as long a bullet-style muffler as I can and channel it to the back in stock fashion and go with a setup like the IRM dual but have it be 2.5".

Where the bullet muffler will be, I hope to have flanges incase I need to bolt on a cat for emissions. I don't think I'll have to worry about that though. Probably get an F-body cat since I think they are 2.5" stock and flow well. There's a good aftermarket there for cats.

One final note on my earlier comment:
Performance engines are designed from the bottom up, not the top down. That's why an intake is the last thing I worry about.

EDIT:
But I do worry about it.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 08-21-2005).]

The benefit from using the fiero store xover is that it is mandrel bent and the stock is not so in some of the bents it shrinks to about 1 inch in diameter. I don't think I can find an exhaust shop that could make a xover pipe for less than $200.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: No, actually, I changed my major. Engineering is far too boring and time consuming for my taste. Regardless, do a search for "The Ram Air Myth," its all explained very well. The site it was originally posted on doesn't seem to be up right now (vetteguru.com). Anyway, the physics are pretty basic. The way a turbo works is to cram more air into the engine. To do that, you need a specially designed compresser spinning extremely fast. The engine is already trying to move several hundred cubic feet of air per minute. You need to make up for that huge vacuum AND cram more air in on top of that. If you could do that with a funnel, we wouldn't have turbos and superchargers. Ram Air is a waste of space. You want to cram as much air into the engine as possible. A funnel is only going to restrict airflow. Dense air won't do you any good unless you can get enough of it. The short of it, Ram Air is a sales gimick. They don't make 20 more horsepower with it. Show me one car where the manufacturer claims that kind of gain with only a different hood. Most of them are purely cosmetic. Even the functional ones, like those on the late Firebirds, are more show than anything. The air has to make a bunch of sharp turns to get from the scoop back to the throttle body. Any power gain that any body gets from any Ram Air or Cold Air Intake kit is made by making the air intake system less restrictive. Some stock air intakes are ridiculously long, narrow, and full of sharp turns. Put a nice, big, straight pipe and a free flowing filter in instead and you'll definately get more power because the engine doesn't have to work as hard to pull air in. The only way Ram Air could ever do any good is if you put the open end of your air intake tube into a sealed compartment and the only way for the air to get in was through your Ram Air scoop.

well i'm sorry that i cannot show you it on the idiotnet but i was at a buddies this morning and we looked in a 1970 motors manual just to be sure and you were right, almost. motors rate the 1968 pontiac engine with and without the ram air option, there isnt a 20 hp gain its only a 10 hp gain between the standard 455 ci engine. look it up, MOTORS 1970 edition. not the factory.
one of the reasons you never see a gain on the dyno is the test isnt done in a wind tunnel, the faster you go the more air you cram in, and if the test is done in a tunnel under 100 mph you will see the gain.
sorry boys i'm old school i grew up with those cars, worked on them. broke my first nuckle on a 1967 firebird convertable 400 HO, 325 hp
and how did you think ram air worked it has to go into a sealed compartment or it wouldnt be ram now would it.
------------------
technology is great when it works
and one big pain in the ass when it doesnt.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 08-21-2005).]

According to the aerodynamic engineer who explained it to me....

The things on cars are "ram tuned" intakes which means that they are accoustically tuned to create an oscillating effect on the air density that coincides with the opening and closing of the valves.

True ram air only works at INSANE speeds. Google for "ramjet" and "scramjet".

-----------------

Edit: The power gain on SOME ram tuned intakes is real, on others there is no actual gain, and it's fairly minimal anyway. Unless you're a helluva engineer with a lab at your disposal, just get some other bolt on mods.

[This message has been edited by FieroGT42 (edited 08-21-2005).]

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: No streetable Fiero cam I have seen is designed to make peak power over 5200rpm. Most make there peak in the 4200-4800 range. Darrel's TB and a ported intake allow for plenty of power to be made to 5000rpm with a 3.4.

This is a very interesting point. My cam is good from 1k to 5k. I assume peak power is somewhere around 5k. Just when the flow stops.

quote Originally posted by FieroGT42: According to the aerodynamic engineer who explained it to me.... The things on cars are "ram tuned" intakes which means that they are accoustically tuned to create an oscillating effect on the air density that coincides with the opening and closing of the valves. True ram air only works at INSANE speeds. Google for "ramjet" and "scramjet". ----------------- Edit: The power gain on SOME ram tuned intakes is real, on others there is no actual gain, and it's fairly minimal anyway. Unless you're a helluva engineer with a lab at your disposal, just get some other bolt on mods.

never liked engineers, they have no real world knowledge. evertime an engineer hands me a blue print i cringe, "it works on paper" and then when it doesnt they blame me, even when i show them its not possible they say,"the computer says it will work" idiots with degrees. i can count on one hand -my thumb, ring finger, and traffic finger the engineers that have a clue and know what they are doing, and they spent at least 5 years in the field, working seeing what works and doesnt work.
heres some guy who did a real world test on his own, you be the judge.

http://www.karlsnet.com/mopar/ramair.shtml

------------------
technology is great when it works
and one big pain in the ass when it doesnt.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: No streetable Fiero cam I have seen is designed to make peak power over 5200rpm. Most make there peak in the 4200-4800 range. Darrel's TB and a ported intake allow for plenty of power to be made to 5000rpm with a 3.4.

This is a very interesting point. My cam is good from 1k to 5k. I assume peak power is somewhere around 5k. Just when the flow stops.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: never liked engineers, they have no real world knowledge... http://www.karlsnet.com/mopar/ramair.shtml

And then you quote this madness written by the guy with the 2.2 Dodge Shadow and the ram air constructed of dryer vent hose?!
I'm certainly glad that he took the time to measure air flow with the strain gauge that "he made". I'm sure it was well calibrated.
He doesn't quote a single measured performance parameter, with the exception of fuel mileage, and the rest of the article is just so much kwrap that anything he says is suspect. He should have used a Tornado, he could have gotten another 10 HP out of it.

Most people here stopped paying attention to bullshit like this years ago. It's the internet equivalent of bench racing.
It's meaningless. Show me some numbers or go away.

And you want to discount the documented measured improvements of mods that we've made?

Go to K-Mart and buy a clue.
No one's paying any attention to you, other than for amusement purposes.

Not to interupt you guys...BUT the thread is about the factory intake and how WE can make it better.

quote Final Project Conclusions: I finished all the projects by mid December 2001 and have the Quad Ram Air in permanently on my 1993 Dodge Shadow 2.2L NA. The K&N filter, Quad Ram Air, heavily modified air box, and crankcase vent mod / filter / ram all work together very nicely for a huge gain in performance and fuel economy. I saw a 57.9% increase in fuel economy (but I wasn't getting the stock EPA fuel economy rating, it nets a 20% improvement over the EPA rating). Horsepower based on 1/4 mile time says I gained 36.6% (34 HP),Holy Mother Of God! which I account mainly to the very poor breathing of the stock 2.2. My mods to my car may be a little severe for some people, and like every mod on a car you are trading off one thing for another.

Not even the Tornado commercial makes this kind of claim.

A 60 degree V-6 example of a Ram Air unit would be the intake system found on the Grand Am GT's, and all the big engineers at Pontiac could only come up with a whopping 5 peak hp. However, Ram Air's do have their purpose, they not only give you a steady supply of dense air, but if installed correctly you will be collecting cooler, more oxygen rich air.

As seen on so many Fiero's and mine as well, you will find a Cold Air Intake setup installed within the wheel well where the stock scoop is located. This set up has no advantage over the stock system and has been a complete waste of money and time. If you want to collect cold clean air then you are searching in the wrong place. Look at the pace car, look at the big ugly scoop on the back of it, collecting nice cold clean air for the most optimal spot (highest point on the vehicle), also the area with the most amount of air movement. If you were to design a ram air intake that collected air from the roof line and brought it into your engine you may notice a power increase similar to the 5 hp gain on the Grand Am or more, BUT you will gain nothing at all unless the stock intake plenum is modified or changed.

I tried to figure out some way of keeping the stock intake but increasing the flow. I had this set in my head and even had the tools and an engineer buddy to work things out. On paper the Fiero plenum design looks as though it can be altered to less restrict the air flow. But when the system is in the car you notice that the Pontiac design team painted themselves into a corner. The deck lid and valve covers prevent any major modification to this system and your only really option is to replace or redesign a completely new system. If you believe that the Trueleo intake is a waste of money and time then believe it, but this intake although ugly (not backing down) has taken all the desing flaws of the original system and drastically improved them for a positive gain. A gain that will continue to provide further power increases as you add more mods to you car. The more ignition you want, the more oxygen you require. The intake system is the major downfall of this car, too bad it is the signature theme of the 2.8 in this vehicle.

BTW to answer someones question, the Camaro 3.4 intake does flow better but as this motor has a DIS ignition system, it has no distributor and therefore no romm for the distributor.

quote Originally posted by goatnipples2002: Not to interupt you guys...BUT the thread is about the factory intake and how WE can make it better.

You're right. Sorry.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: And then you quote this madness written by the guy with the 2.2 Dodge Shadow and the ram air constructed of dryer vent hose?! I'm certainly glad that he took the time to measure air flow with the strain gauge that "he made". I'm sure it was well calibrated. He doesn't quote a single measured performance parameter, with the exception of fuel mileage, and the rest of the article is just so much kwrap that anything he says is suspect. He should have used a Tornado, he could have gotten another 10 HP out of it. Most people here stopped paying attention to bullshit like this years ago. It's the internet equivalent of bench racing. It's meaningless. Show me some numbers or go away. And you want to discount the documented measured improvements of mods that we've made? Go to K-Mart and buy a clue. No one's paying any attention to you, other than for amusement purposes.

ok i showed u a motors manual with the numbers. i showed you real world tests. you are not going to belive anything i say. if you cant get more air threw the manifold you arent going to increase performance.
try this

http://www.ramairbox.com/

i am also on the hotrodders forum, lots of older guys that know what they are doing and they are all agreeing with me. engineers are never wrong, at least as far as they are conserned. engineers are idiots with degrees, the real world is where it matters not on a peace of paper, blueprint, computer screen. you dont belive me ask these guys.

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/hp-rateings-without-ram-air-68525.html

------------------
technology is great when it works
and one big pain in the ass when it doesnt.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

Engineers sometimes may be full of it, but there are simple facts in life such as physics which they can very easily measure since they went to school for 6 years (a complete waste of their time I guess since you seem to know more then they do).

Think about a ram air on a carbed big block, and then picture a ram air on the Fiero.

Carbed Big Block
Ram air box installed in hood, directly fed to the air cleaner and carb, no problem.

Fiero
Lets say you install a ram air system in the stock location of the air inlet. That air is coming in at basically the same speed as the car is travelling, it goes in the ram and already hits an obstacle, then it is force to change directions and flow upwards, then bottle neck through the throttle body, then through the upper plenum as it makes a sharp u-turn heading down the middle plenum and then bottle necks again and into the motor. How much air speed do you figure is feeding the motor at that point? Not to mention you are collecting dirty air from the lower half of the car that is only going to slow the system down further.

Its hard to compare the results for hod rods to Fiero's. You need better examples. Like I said, with the right engineering (yes, believe me, they could do a better job of designing one then you can), you could create a high mounted ram scoop like the 84 Pace Car that might turn you a profit of 5-10 hp at high speeds with intake heavily modded (like a Trueleo). Other than that you might get a couple of hp to make you feel better about the crazy sucking noise your car is making now (all you guys with the CAI's will know what I am talking about).

[This message has been edited by Oversteer (edited 08-21-2005).]

Hey 123... (Can you count any higher?)
Out of respect for the original poster and people who are interested in the original topic, I'm done responding to your posts.
If you want to continue this, go here. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/035744.html

quote Originally posted by Raydar: It's a 3.4 with a stock Camaro cam, 1.6 rockers, Underdrive pulley, No cat, Sprint manifolds, Stock muffler, Bored TB, 19# injectors, Appropriately tuned chip, EGR and all other emissions equipment is still in place and functional. Still running the 195 stat. No internal mods. No porting. It's still pulling like a train at 6K.

That is pretty impressive considering I will have a comp 260, Gasket matched lower IM, Gasket matched and polished intake ports, ported and polished exhaust ports, underdrive pulley and probably no EGR, 180 stat, custom 2.5 borla XR1 exhaust.

Damn from the mods I have I'm ready for the intake.....yeah it's pricey yet not 1 complaint from those that own it.

[This message has been edited by goatnipples2002 (edited 08-22-2005).]

well, my next step in improving my upper plenum, was to cut out the area underneath the neck, where it goes square, and blend it in further back. without a picture, it kinda hard to see what I mean.

what I have done sofar:
bored the TB to 57mm, along with the neck.
filled the EGR cavity to make for a smooth tube from TB to plenum - that hole makes for a big swirling restriction also
gasket matched plenums
smooth sanded radius's between upper & lower plenum
ground out injector humps & gasket matched intake manifold
gasket matched & ported heads - light on the bowls, being it was my first time

I havent dyno'd or anything, but I feel my power curve starts to drop back down around 5500. which I find pretty good. I want to be able to run it to 6500. with my 3.1, I should be able to rev a little further than a 3.4. but, also, after seeing other people dyno sheets, it may just be a fuel/chip issue in the upper rpm's. most seem to suddenly go lean after 5000.

also - the ram-air. it works. its not BOOST - you want boost, get a turbo or supercharger. hard to see with a dyno, unless you slap a artificial wind to match the speed. you will NEVER see a car with the exhaust out the front & the intake in the rear. just like the centered exhaust puts the exhaust in the area of least pressure, a proper scoop puts the intake in the area of greatest pressure. and also, with car models - the ram-air model cars have other small differences to enhance performance. you put a grand-am & a ram-air grand am on a dyno, the ram air grand am will make more power, even tho there is no airflow to "ram" - thats just marketing. its nickel & dime, yes, but it is for real. and, for a topper - an electric fan will give more boost than ram-air - HA!

Removed hijack. Sorry.

goatnipples... check your PMs.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 08-22-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: well, my next step in improving my upper plenum, was to cut out the area underneath the neck, where it goes square, and blend it in further back. without a picture, it kinda hard to see what I mean. what I have done sofar: bored the TB to 57mm, along with the neck. filled the EGR cavity to make for a smooth tube from TB to plenum - that hole makes for a big swirling restriction also gasket matched plenums smooth sanded radius's between upper & lower plenum ground out injector humps & gasket matched intake manifold gasket matched & ported heads - light on the bowls, being it was my first time I havent dyno'd or anything, but I feel my power curve starts to drop back down around 5500. which I find pretty good. I want to be able to run it to 6500. with my 3.1, I should be able to rev a little further than a 3.4. but, also, after seeing other people dyno sheets, it may just be a fuel/chip issue in the upper rpm's. most seem to suddenly go lean after 5000. ....!

This manifold has that done and more.

With the rest of your mods except ported heads and stock cam this is what I got with the moded manifold (previous was Darrel ported as well as TB), 2.5HP;

I have yet to see a FI 3.4 engine to break the 150 rwHP barrier. This fall I'll put the H270 cam (ordered already) and roller rockers with my Darrel ported intake. I'll take it to the dyno and see how it does but this will be with an automatic tranny so we will see also how that affects. Then I plan to get the Truleo and hit the dyno again in hopes to break that 150hp

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: This manifold has that done and more. With the rest of your mods except ported heads and stock cam this is what I got with the moded manifold (previous was Darrel ported as well as TB), 2.5HP; I have yet to see a FI 3.4 engine to break the 150 rwHP barrier. This fall I'll put the H270 cam (ordered already) and roller rockers with my Darrel ported intake. I'll take it to the dyno and see how it does but this will be with an automatic tranny so we will see also how that affects. Then I plan to get the Truleo and hit the dyno again in hopes to break that 150hp

cam has ALOT to do with how much improvement you can get from a intake. I'm sure that creation - which I LIKE ALOT - will make for a MUCH bigger improvement with your next cam. and also, opening the exhaust is needed too. need all three to do it right. just like the old days - carb/cam/headers - which in the FI days translates to intake/cam/headers. again - nice job on that intake.

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: This manifold has that done and more. With the rest of your mods except ported heads and stock cam this is what I got with the moded manifold (previous was Darrel ported as well as TB), 2.5HP; I have yet to see a FI 3.4 engine to break the 150 rwHP barrier. This fall I'll put the H270 cam (ordered already) and roller rockers with my Darrel ported intake. I'll take it to the dyno and see how it does but this will be with an automatic tranny so we will see also how that affects. Then I plan to get the Truleo and hit the dyno again in hopes to break that 150hp

I was right at 150. And I didn't have that intake. I used the H260 cam not the H272. My next 3.4/3.5 will surpass most 4.9's in power. It will be documented in about 8 months to a year. I'm iffy on whether I want a roller cam black or standard hydrolic... Need to find a reasonably priced performance roller cam. But I will be using Fiero heads, computer and injection. BTW 1fst2m6's 2.8 dynoed at 154rwhp. I also will be shortening my next intake the way he did.

ps, I was still making about 127rwhp @ 6000 rpm so much for the Fiero intake not flowing when it's ported...
Also, I removed the air filter tube and ran an open throttle body on one where the previous run I was making 145 hp (before I got the timing right) and made 145 peak hp @ 5500 rpm instead of 4500 rpm. All it did was shift my power band over to the right 1000 rpm.

I'm telling you (all), just get a real exhaust system.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 08-22-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Removed hijack. Sorry. goatnipples... check your PMs.

I saw that but thanks now i don't have to search for it. I ONLY considered the ram air argument to be alittle off topic. I think this thread is interesting because alot of ideas are coming out.Maybe al these ideas will hold some water and we will have a stoc looking manifold that flows better.

There are other venus to take as well. Through our research we have come across a few Dual TB set up that seem to work, although suffer from the same problem as the Trueleo, all go and no show.

Here is a link of one that was built on here https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20020208-2-014612.html.

We have tinkered around with a Supra Twin Turbo plenum just for the throttle body system that will operate the two throttle bodies equally. Our plan was to take a Ford SHO intake and the Supra Intake and make one unit out of it running aluminum tubing from the runners on the SHO to the lower intake plenum. This would allow the air to equalize, as well as properly operate the two TB's. This system is just overly large and would create it's own restrictions when trying to adapt it to the narrow plenum area on the Boat Anchor block.

There has to be a better way, keep searching I guess.

1fst2m6: https://www.fiero.nl/uploads/1fstdyno_manymods.jpg

quote 2.5" ex, ported stock manifolds, shaved heads, MSD, strange intake, 50psi on 305 camaro injectors... i've also shaved the intake track a bit over an inch and gained 6 more hp.. but kinda hurt the low end torque..

on a 2.8

oh my is that a 2.5" exhaust?
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20010924-2-010040.html

he shaved his intake about 1.3" shorted and gained 6hp at the wheels. On a 3.4, I don't believe the low end would be affected on bit.

Let me re-iterate, machine the intake and spend money on an exhaust.
Hey, what's the fastest and cheapest way to make 40 hp on a 5.0 Mustang? Or even an F-body car?

Put in a bigger exhaust system.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 08-22-2005).]

Okay, I picked up some 1/2 inch aluminum bar stock today to make my spacers out of. !/2" lets me use the same bolts to put the upper and middle together with, and shouldn't cause any other problems with fit while allmost doubling the radius of the turn the air has to make. When I'm finished, I want to make a mold of the runners from a stock manifold and the modified one. Does anyone know what I could use and where I could get it? Something like a dentist uses to take impressions or ballistic gel?

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: he shaved his intake about 1.3" shorted and gained 6hp at the wheels. On a 3.4, I don't believe the low end would be affected on bit. ...

I don't think that would be the case at all. Even on a big 350 you loose good torque when going from TPI to a short runner Stealth Ram. But you gain a lot of HP

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: I don't think that would be the case at all. Even on a big 350 you loose good torque when going from TPI to a short runner Stealth Ram. But you gain a lot of HP

Yeah but that's a radical change on a 350 (just like it was radical for a 2.8). If you made the 350 into a 400 then kept the same intake then replaced with a shorter one, do you think you'll stick lose much torque? I would say you are closer to what is required by the higher displacement as far as flow goes. Everybody told me I would loose torque by eliminating the cat AND muffler and I only picked up even more power everywhere.

I removed the EGR valve completely off the cross-over and picked up another 10 hp and 10 ft*lbs. That's not streetable and my listed peak is not with that mod ... but it proves a point. I was already running Sprints, a hollow cat and NO muffler.
This motor is constipated. You can open up the intake all you want, that fresh air isn't filling the cylinders because the exhaust has no where to go.

I'll be the first in line to buy a Trueleo EXHAUST. And I will put my money where my mouth is. Make me a 2.5" exhaust with 1/8" larger diameter than stock tubing on the headers going into a larger diameter crossover with a 2.5" downpipe and I'll be customer #1. Francis you have my word.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 08-22-2005).]

I agree with that! Second one on the list.

Building a 2.5" exhaust is much easier than building an intake manifold. I think I'll ditch my Borla exhaust and build one instead for this swap. Problem is I won't be able to test it before and after. But depending on the final dyno numbers I will see if it did any good overall.

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: ...I removed the EGR valve completely off the cross-over and picked up another 10 hp and 10 ft*lbs. That's not streetable and my listed peak is not with that mod ... but it proves a point. I was already running Sprints, a hollow cat and NO muffler.

Got a question; So your dyno result was with no cat nor muffler? Was it with stock cam too? I think you told me way back but I forgot.

[This message has been edited by Alex4mula (edited 08-22-2005).]

Ok I'll admit that I don't know much about our Fiero intakes except the general consensus is that there pretty bad. I know a little about the truelo intake as I read about it back when it was being built and its impressive in performance. I have, however wondered if one could be designed with good results that had more of a 3.2 SHO look to the intake where the air flow goes out and around the intake and then down into the throttle body. I think the 3.2 SHO intake is amazing looking considering it just an intake and I know it provides enough airflow for high revs cause those things rev like crazy and its technically only a 3.0 engine block though I know its not even in any way the same as a push rod 2.8 but if it could be done I would buy one.

I am also curious as to how thin you can make an intake say if you took the stock fiero intake how much could you port it out before its too thin, in my mind you could make it real thin cause its not like your putting a lot of pressure through it but again I don't know much about it. Also does it have to be made out of metal I think Carbon Fiber would be an interesting material to use cause its strong and as far as I know it can take heat and would be easy to make something out of it, as you can make it a two piece top and bottom which would mean you could use a mold and then resin them together for the final product. I would be very interested in any info anybody would have for me about my questions. Thanks

We tried the SHO intake, but it is a little big, and the Boat Anchor doesn't have the room the 3.2 does, the distributor is in the way, the decklid is in the way, the valve covers are in the way.

I must admit that you could try all day and all night to beat that Trueleo in function and fashion but it would be hard. You'd need to go with a dual throttle body or something.

Yep, something like this.

This was my first choice before the Trueleo intake.

Is that in production? The trueleo looks a little easier to mount the TB with alot less fabrication.

[This message has been edited by goatnipples2002 (edited 08-23-2005).]