I've got Russell brake lines in the back end of my 87/88 combo car, since the hard lines are up front, and the calipers are now in the back (88 cradle).

I got an 'indication' of impending failure when my foot started sinking down on harder braking. Thought it was the M/C at first.

Stomped 'em hard a few days later, and -poof- right to the floor. I was only a few blocks from home on a test run, so no big deal. Turned out to be one of the braided lines had popped.

No visual indication of failure, except for the lack of paint on many of my suspension parts!

So - just a warning - if you have non stock lines, keep spares on hand, and watch for those signs of upcoming failure!

------------------

87/88 V6 5spd "FormulaGT" Turbo, 86 SE (sale in progress)

My pages:
http://www.fieroclub.com
http://www.fierohut.com

dounds like a defect, contact the vendor
ive had ss lines for 3 years on 2 cars with no problems

you are the second person that has had line failure that i know of.
the other person is in kansas city.

quote Originally posted by $Rich$: ive had ss lines for 3 years on 2 cars with no problems

Well, you're about due then - this was in service about 4 years.

whats the warranty?
mine are from the fiero store

[This message has been edited by $Rich$ (edited 09-03-2005).]

Are they DOT approved lines?

Thanks for the heads up. Where did the hose fail? Was it at the caliper end, at the inboard end, or somewhere else. That would be useful information. I would also suggest that you submit the failed hose to Russell, just as it came off the car, along with as much information as you can provide.

I have been working on engineering a "better" solution for '88 Fieros, but I want to wait to post all the information until I have some time on it in the car under real-world conditions. See the pictures below for a preview.

Stock '88 rear brake hose (caliper end):

Hard pipe cut off and prepared to accept a not-yet-modified AN adapter:

The modified AN adapter silver-brazed to the hard pipe:

Modified hard pipe with PTFE/stainless hose attached:

At this point I am using 12-inch Russell DOT-compliant hoses. Compared to the non-DOT Earl's hoses currently on my Formula (which have worked fine so far), the Russell hoses I have obtained appear to be a better choice for a street-driven car. Besides being rated (by Russell) as DOT compliant, the hoses have an overall clear jacket (presumably to keep dirt out of the stainless braid and to reduce abrasion between the braid and external surfaces) and additional strain relief at the fittings.

Stay tuned for more details later.

------------------
'88 Formula
Project Testostarossa
"Anything worth doing is worth overdoing."

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 09-04-2005).]

Hmm. We have 2 Fieros each 20 yrs old. 4 brake lines each = 8 X 20 yrs ea =160 brakeline yrs of service without a failure. May be time to change them, but I think I will stick with the original design.

I'm not at all surprised an SS line failed. I've been trying to make people aware of issues with SS line stock for a couple years.

SS lines have a serious failure mode that can and often will strike with no warning. I've mentioned it before but all the "experts" told me I'm full of crap.

SS lines can break strands of the SS braid. If this happens on the inside of the braid, the broken strand(s) will chew thru the liner and cause a hydraulic failure.

DOT SS line is very new on the market. It has only been available a few years. (In car years anything less than a decade old is a new product.) It has no history of reliability like the "rubber" lines that have been around for several decades.

People falsely assume the DOT means tested by USDOT. It means nothing of the kind. The DOT "certification" simply means the product was tested to FMVSS rules. (CFR T49 V2 S517.106 in this case) This can be done by an independant lab but is often done by the product maker. Like all testing... Accelerated wear tests and real world results are not always the same. When I see SS line last a decade or two or even more in the real world then I'll shut up about it. Until then I will never recomend SS lines for street use. For all the fans of SS line... Have you seen even one carmaker use this stuff on a street car? Even the most expensive cars I know of use the "rubber" lines.

BTW... The cover layer on new DOT rated SS line is there to meet FMVSS 571.106. You can't meet this standard without such a covering. The covering doesn't stop the chance of a braid break punching the liner.

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurasic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top of every forum page...)

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 09-03-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: Besides being certified as DOT compliant, the Russell hoses have an overall clear jacket

Here's one thing to note....

I put these on about 4 years ago, and then there was NO sleeving as there IS on the replacement line (also a Russell) I installed.

Oh, and Ogre... you're not full of crap... you're quite right... you just need to double up on the lil' blue pill.

quote Originally posted by watts: Oh, and Ogre... you're not full of crap... you're quite right... you just need to double up on the lil' blue pill.

I take 4 little blue pills a day thank you... 4x 2mg generic Barr Warfarin.

Kidding aside... When I say something has an issue, it's got an issue. SS lines, that bloody GA brake upgrade, and a few other things. I don't crap on things just to say "I told you so." Carmakers aren't perfect but if SS lines were really so good for street cars, they'd use them. Especially on the "performance" and "luxury" models where people would pay the extra couple dollars. It wouldn't have taken years for the aftermarket to make DOT SS line because the carmakers would have been doing them long ago. The carmakers don't use them. Not Porche. Not Corvette. Not Viper or Prowler far as I know. Not anything in production that I've ever seen. Not just in the U.S. but everywhere.

If a single strand fails in a "rubber" line, it doesn't dig thru the liner. It can't. The weave material is a very low stretch soft fiber. (I forget just what.) With as many "rubber" lines as are on the road the failure rate is insanely low even on cars 10-15-20 years old. Most products would kill for the low defect and high MTBF of this item. In reality it takes allot to kill these things.

I bought my SS lines before I did the research on 'em.

It's also been mentioned that the teflon (or whatever the lining is) tends to 'creep' away from the fittings & you should re-swage the ends every year.

I would stay with rubber lines, much like Ogre recommends.

quote Originally posted by theogre: Not anything in production that I've ever seen. Not just in the U.S. but everywhere. .

We have braided flexhoses all over the Space Shuttle and after 25 years I have yet to see one fail.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: We have braided flexhoses all over the Space Shuttle and after 25 years I have yet to see one fail.

Agreed. Teflon/stainless hoses are widely used in aircraft, too ... BUT an automotive brake line sees a totally different service environment. The number of flexure cycles a brake hose sees on a car totally swamps anything in aircraft or spacecraft service.

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: Agreed. Teflon/stainless hoses are widely used in aircraft, too ... BUT an automotive brake line sees a totally different service environment. The number of flexure cycles a brake hose sees on a car totally swamps anything in aircraft or spacecraft service.

What he said... Think about it. In normal daily driving a brake hose gets millions and millions of very hard flex cycles per year even if they are very short radius bends. It is one of the most used and abused hydraulic hoses on the planet. I very much doubt anything in aerospace/aircraft recieves this huge amount of flex cycle. I strongly urge people to read the FMVSS what is a matter of public record and linked in my cave in several areas. (Start at the links page. You don't even need Java to get there.)

The problem of braid punch isn't unique to brake hose. All metal reinforced hydro hose is subject to the same fail modes. The FMVSS whip test tries to prevent the worst of it but this testing simply doesn't cover the real world use of metal rebar brake hoses. It was never even ment to cover that hose system. None of the carmakers use metal reinforced flex hoses to this day and for very good reasons. As I've said before, carmakers aren't completely stupid. If metal reinforced hose was better for brakes then they would use it. None of them do. Not one. Not even on the most expensive cars where people would pay any difference. Why?

Even if you pass the FMVSS whip test at the hose ends of SS lines... you can fail in the middle of the hose because most aftermarket SS hoses make you reuse OE supports and many people make the OE support too tight on the new hose. Any constrained point on the hose is subject to braid punch failures.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Hmm. We have 2 Fieros each 20 yrs old. 4 brake lines each = 8 X 20 yrs ea =160 brakeline yrs of service without a failure. May be time to change them, but I think I will stick with the original design.

good point
two fieros with SS lines.
each kit was less than 3 yrears old and failed.

i'm staying with rubber.

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: Do I understand correctly ... that you were using a standard-length Fiero rear brake hose in an '87 car retrofitted with an '88 cradle? If so, that may be your problem. The Earl's rear hoses as supplied by the Fiero Store were already about an inch shorter than the OEM '88 hose assembly, and they are flexed pretty severely when the rear suspension is at full travel (see picture). The position of the '87 hard line could be making matters even worse. This whole matter of flexure modes is why I started on the engineering project described above. The hard pipe at the caliper end of the hose assembly eliminates flexure at that end, as well as keeping the brake hose away from the wheel inner surface. The intent of my design is to minimize flexure of the hose at the fittings, to distribute the flexure over almost the full length of the hose, and to avoid any rotational loading of the flexible hose. It remains to be seen how it will work in practice.

The problem I have seen is that the brake lines for our Fiero's are to short. I got a set that is the correct length. Turns out the lines I have seen need to be about two inches longer and would have kinked. This would have caused nasty failures.

I got a custom set from The Fiero Store that is the correct length.

------------------

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: Do I understand correctly ...

No.

I am using a totally "non kit" hose setup, involving a 24" length of -3 to -3 hose, with a -3 to 10mm banjo on one end, and a -3 to inverted flare adaptor on the other end. When I put this all together, it was the only viable way I could think of to use the '88 cradle and brakes in my '87 body.

If I were to do it all again today, I would reposition the hard lines, and use the stock hoses.

Yea I read too many threads here on PFF about fitment issues with the 88 SS hoses; I ordered a set of Raybestos stock rubber hoses and am completely happy with them.

------------------
1988 Fiero GT 2.8
1991 S-10 5-speed 2.8

lots of good points.
I keep thinking about the dirt and grit getting into that braid........ all that nice wet grit being whipped around inside the wheel well and coming at the (exposed) brake line from every angle (due to the turbulence in that particular spot!)

I was planning on going with DOT SS hose for my 'sunny/perfect weekend only' NON daily driver but I think I will go with stock type instead.
Hope I can find something that fits my setup!

gp

quote Originally posted by watts: I am using a totally "non kit" hose setup, involving a 24" length of -3 to -3 hose, with a -3 to 10mm banjo on one end, and a -3 to inverted flare adaptor on the other end.

Can you tell exactly where the hose failed? Any indication how it failed?

quote Originally posted by fiero308: lots of good points. I keep thinking about the dirt and grit getting into that braid........ all that nice wet grit being whipped around inside the wheel well and coming at the (exposed) brake line from every angle (due to the turbulence in that particular spot!) I was planning on going with DOT SS hose for my 'sunny/perfect weekend only' NON daily driver but I think I will go with stock type instead. Hope I can find something that fits my setup! gp

The Fiero Store lines I got do not have exposed SS brades. The lines are coated with a clear rubbery jacket.

quote Originally posted by buddycraigg: you are the second person that has had line failure that i know of. the other person is in kansas city.

Also synthesis in MN had a failure, but I don't remember if it was due to tire rubbing or not.

I also echo Ogre's sentiment about the SS lines. All engineering tasks are a careful balance between reliability, price, and performance. Rubber lines give excellent reliability, at a great price, and decent performance. SS lines give poor reliability, at an okay price, with excellent performance.

Frequently checked race car? Yes. Daily driver? No. I went rubber lines in the front when I needed to replace them.

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 09-04-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: Can you tell exactly where the hose failed? Any indication how it failed?

Unfortunately, short of reinstalling it and pressurizing the system again (can I pass on that please?) to find the leak - I'll just have to stay in the dark there. Since the outer jacket doesn't start to bulge like a rubber one would giving an indication of impending doom (sorry, failure!), I can't even narrow down the exact spot it croaked.

I know there's no external contact point (chafe area for example), or at least none that I can see.

Guess I'll just have to move on in ignorant bliss.

I have used Russell SS DOT approved brake lines with success. Two years on my 87GT and they are good so far. The thing to remember about installing these lines, is that it is very important to not flex them excessively during installation. If you overflex and kink a braided SS line, the teflon liner will be prone to failure in In a pressurized application this is especially true. . If you intall these lines, install correctly and don't bend or twist them in any way shape or form.
The old rubber brake lines are certinly proven. However, with age they tend to colapse internally eventaully causing brake lockup. The SS on the other hand will not colaspe internally,provides a firmer pedal and also look much nicer. Take your pick!

------------------
87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds -Best
Engine Controls, ECM goodies, Chip
re-programming & odd electronics stuff

quote Originally posted by theogre: The FMVSS whip test tries to prevent the worst of [hose failure] but this testing simply doesn't cover the real world use of ... brake hoses.

This is a very important but subtle point. Manufacturers can certify that their hoses meet DOT requirements, but they have no control over the installation. See more discussion below.

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: The thing to remember about installing these lines, is that it is very important to not flex them excessively during installation. If you overflex and kink a braided SS line, the teflon liner will be prone to failure ....

Very true.

Discussion:

Both of the comments above lead us into the topic of minimum bend radius. Just about everyone knows what will happen when you try to bend a 1/4-inch copper tube too sharply ... it will buckle and collapse. The same thing happens with PTFE hose liner. Every hydraulic hose (including both rubber and PTFE/stainless) has a minimum bend radius specification, established by the manufacturer as a result of testing. For example, Earl's specifies a minimum bend radius of 1.5 inches for their 3/16 SpeedFlex brake hose. (I can find no similar published specification for Russell hoses. Kudos to Earl's for at least being up front with specifications.)

I have reviewed the minimum bend radius specifications for a number of 2000 psi-rated PTFE/stainless hoses from Aeroquip and Stratoflex, and they generally range from 1.5 to 2.0 inches for unpressurized hose; I have found only one PTFE/stainless hose (Stratoflex 3175) that specs a minimum bend radius smaller than 1.5 inches. (Interesting aside: A bend radius smaller than the static value is generally permissible when a hose is pressurized to several hundred psi, since the pressure helps to support the PTFE liner against collapse. The "whip test" specified in FMVSS 517.106 is conducted with the hose pressurized with water at 235 psi.)

So there are two critical points to consider: 1) design of the hose installation, and 2) workmanship when installing a hose.

First, the design of the installation should always guarantee that any bend radius is larger than the minimum specified by the manufacturer. As an example, I measured the bend radius of the hard pipe portion of the rear brake hoses on the '88 Fiero (see pictures posted earlier); the bend radius of the hard pipe is only 0.85 inch! This means that if you install Earl's hoses on an '88, you must ensure that the lower bend radius is at least twice as large as the original hard pipe. I doubt that any of the PTFE/stainless hose retrofits on the market (including the Earl's hoses currently installed on my Formula) meet that specification when the rear suspension is at full travel (as when installing the hose or changing a tire) ... and yet we wonder why the hoses sometimes fail!

Second, the workmanship when installing a hose must be perfect. We have already established that the most critical condition for damage is when the hose is not pressurized ... which is exactly the condition prior to and during installation. You must be sure that the minimum bend radius specification for the hose is maintained at all times before and during installation ... something that's not always easy to do.

Finally, there is one other consideration. The published minimum bend radius specifications for hose generally assume a one-time bend ... at installation ... and do not necessarily allow for repeated flexure cycles. I have never seen bend radius vs. flexure cycle data for any PTFE/stainless hose from any manufacturer. It is possible (although I doubt it) that the published minimum bend radius specifications could be valid for an infinite number of flexure cycles ... but that is very unlikely to be the case. YMMV.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 09-14-2005).]

Good info. Marvin, this is why my replacement hoses will be stock rubber ones.

Something else to consider is the concept of failure prevention through inspection. Personally, I don't want brake or suspension failures on the road - the risk here is too great. So I check these parts regularly, looking for early signs of fatigue / failure.

Rubber brake lines will show cracking / checking / bulging before they fail - if I see this happening, I can replace the line and never experience a brake failure on the road. Those SS lines look fine right up until they fail - so the first indication of problems is a loss of braking. That's not acceptable!

The idea of people taking 20 year old cars and "improving" them in ways like this - and then driving them like maniacs on the same roads that I share kinda frightens me.

And it's the "risk to the general public" here that keeps Detroit from putting those braided SS lines on production vehicles. Yes, they have superior characteristics. But they give no warning of failure, and since there's a safer alternative (rubber) there is no rational reason for automakers to switch to these fancy brake lines.

Thought I'd contribute my experience to this. Coming home the other night, up off the highway on an offramp that ends at a stoplight, I'm hitting the brakes, only feel them going to the floor and I'm not gonna stop... yanked the parking brake which helped, and down shifted - came to a stop at the light. Pumped the brakes, got some pressure, wondered what the heck happened.. I've only got 700 miles on the 'new' brakes: rotors, master cylinder, calipers, shoes and all-new fluid.... and the braided steel brake lines. Pulled into the first lit parking lot I could find and found brake fluid on the right rear wheel. Nursed it home, removed the wheel and saw this:

NOTE the clamp... it was a plastic coated steel clamp a little large and loose on the hose. Hard to see in the pic, but the brake hose rubbed the plastic off and the now exposed steel cut through the hose braid. My mistake? First, the clamp was too loose and allowed movement. I used it because I had lost the nylon one that came with it (have nylon on the rest of the hoses, go figure). Next, I bolted it up too high. A lot of stress on those hoses. If I were to order a custom set, I get say 16 inch or 17 inch long. The banjo is 9mm by the way and the other end is -3 AN. Fiero Store had a set they had split up so they sold me a single hose. It cam with the proper size clamp and this time I bolted it to the lower mount:

The Fiero Store brake lines seem to be a little better constructed and just a little longer, not quite and inch that what I had.
Another place to find custom brake hoses.
The real pain is that the brake fluid messed up the finish on the inside of my rim. I guess I'm lucky it didn't happen in a panic stop. Someone up there loves me more than I deserve.

[This message has been edited by USFiero (edited 12-03-2005).]