Particularly with a stock manual tranny. Looking through the archives I understand the 3.4 dohc and the 3800 series II have been tried but I don't see anywhere they have been a successful precident.

3.4L DOHC - Yes. I know of two right off the top.

If you want to keep your manual transmission, the options are limited. The CA smog laws state that the engine and transmission combination that you use has to be one that came out of a stock vehichle from the factory. That means the 4.9 and 3800 engines are a big NO because they were only offered with Autos.

The Law also states that the engine must be as old as your car or NEWER. If your car is an '86, the engine must be an '86 or newer, nothing older. This also means that your engine pretty much has to be fuel injected, since they stopped using carbs in the late 70s/early 80s.

Also, you must have all the smog equipment installed and working properly. Every piece of emissions equipment that came on your donor motor had better be there.

Basically, you're taking an entire stock motor from one car to another. All the parts, wiring, smog stuff, everything, just like the factory would have done it. You can ditch the power steering pump and misc stuff like that, but the emissions stuff has to be there. You want to do you all your homework on this, like have the casting number on the engine block written down, as well as the VIN (and maybe plate #) of the car that the engine came from, and documentation of the work done. You want to make the smog guys life as easy as possible, show him that you did everything right from the get go and he shouldn't give you too hard of a time.

So, to actually answer your question, your options pretty much are: 3.4 Pushrod, 3.4 DOHC, Quad 4/Twin Cam/EcoTec, and the Small Block Chevy V8. The V8 is going to be a harder sell, because its not normally used in a Front Wheel Drive set up. On a side note, the 3.4 pushrod is the easiest swap and the easiest to get through smog because you dress it up as a 2.8 and don't tell the smog ref.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: So, to actually answer your question, your options pretty much are: 3.4 Pushrod, 3.4 DOHC, Quad 4/Twin Cam/EcoTec, and the Small Block Chevy V8. The V8 is going to be a harder sell, because its not normally used in a Front Wheel Drive set up.

What front wheel drive car came with a SBC? If you can get a SBC to pass, then you should be able to pass any V8?

I have a plan to get an LS1 to pass with a manual. I just need to lay it out to the ref and see if it will fly.

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[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 12-08-2005).]

So how much fabricating is required for the Quad 4 swap. There's a HO 2.3 in a 90 Beretta GTZ at the local recycling yard. Anyone know whether or not this is the 190 HP version or what the torque is on that engine? It has a 5-speed but the bellhousing and the clutch connection are different. Is the Fiero clutch slave cylinder usable with the Quad 4 bellhousing or...

Richard

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: What front wheel drive car came with a SBC? If you can get a SBC to pass, then you should be able to pass any V8? I have a plan to get an LS1 to pass with a manual. I just need to lay it out to the ref and see if it will fly.

None, unless you count the new LS4. As I understand it, though, you can get by on the technicality that most every SBC has been offered with a manual transmission, and thats what you're using. I don't know that theres a specific rule that deals with the orientation of the engine, though in this state, it wouldn't surprise me. Definately lay out to a ref before you do all the work. The V8 swap is much more a trick to get by than the others.

I have a 97 LT1 motor from an automatic Camaro in my Fiero with a getrag manual. If you make your swap look clean and you have all the smog equipment required for that engine you will pass. The referee station I went to did not ask me anything about engine numbers, VINs, transmissions, number of exhaust pipes, or any other nonsense. They made sure I had all the sensors in place and that they were functional, CARB approved exhaust manifolds, and that the car passed a smog test. The whole thing took less than an hour.

Are you in California? What smog referee did you go to? I'm going to be trying a N* Fiero with an automatic other than the 4t80e.

FWIW, I saw a complete 3.4 TDC in the Monrovia Pick-A-Part about ten days ago.

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FierOmar

Rickydy88GT, Fastback 86

Neither the SBC nor the LS1 will pass The CARB smog check because neither came OEM
with a transaxle. I've been there with my LS1 swap, and could only get registered as a SPCNS
(specially constructed vehicle) - check my posts about this swap and my experiences with the
Ca bureaucracy.

Orville

quote Originally posted by dratts: Are you in California? What smog referee did you go to? I'm going to be trying a N* Fiero with an automatic other than the 4t80e.

Yes, I'm in San Jose, California. I went to the Evergreen Valley College referee station.

quote Originally posted by cyrus88: Yes, I'm in San Jose, California. I went to the Evergreen Valley College referee station.

Quite cool, I go to SJSU. Do you come to Golden Gate Fieros meetings? I'm writing down the name of that check station, I like ones that don't ask questions.

Posted by cyrus88:
"Yes, I'm in San Jose, California. I went to the Evergreen Valley College referee station."

Interesting that you got your swap passed, cyrus88; that wouldn't have happened here in
Bakersfield, Ca. Did you get it passed recently?

Orville

Several of my customers claim they have passed CA Smog. However, one customer provided me with solid proof.

It's wrote up in more detail on my web page at http://www.v8archie.com/harry.htm

& this topic was covered in detail in a thread in the archives
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20041015-2-045505.html

Hope this helps

Archie

FastBack 86,

No I've never gone to the meetings you mentioned because I didn't know about them. Currently I'm attending Cal Poly so I'm not around the Bay Area too much.

Orville,

I got mine passed about 3-4 years ago. The referee said I couldn't use the custom built headers I had, unless the headers had a CARB number, so I switched to stock corvette exhaust manifolds and the car passed.

quote Originally posted by Archie: Several of my customers claim they have passed CA Smog. However, one customer provided me with solid proof. It's wrote up in more detail on my web page at http://www.v8archie.com/harry.htm & this topic was covered in detail in a thread in the archives https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20041015-2-045505.html Hope this helps Archie

Archie: that swap was done 5 years ago? Allot has changed since then. And it is out of a 90. That is a MUCH more simple engine to deal with than newer cars. BUT that being said I believe that it depends on who inspects your car and how well prepared the owner of the car is. If the job is done clean realistic and proper, and the owner has ALL the answers to the Tech's questions and can show ALL the paper work for the parts used in the swap, then I think it will pass. By the letter of the law the SBC will NEVER again pass as an engine swap in a Fiero. The laws are just to rigid and clear cut. You MUST have the stock tranny that was available with the engine and you MUST have the UNMODIFIED exhaust system all the way to and including the cat to even get by the visual inspection. (this makes ALL longitudinal engines imposable to swap into Fieros) But it is a good thing some Tech's are exercising discretion or "interpretation of the law". Because it looks like some are getting done despite the impossibility imposed on them by the law.

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: You MUST have the stock tranny that was available with the engine and you MUST have the UNMODIFIED exhaust system all the way to and including the cat to even get by the visual inspection.

I've been meaning to ask you about the exhaust. Did the refs give you any trouble about your cat since your exhaust system is modified leading up to it? I'm concerned about mine passing; its impossible to put the cat where it is in the donor car for the 3.4 DOHC since that would put it past the bumper..

quote Originally posted by Steven Snyder: I've been meaning to ask you about the exhaust. Did the refs give you any trouble about your cat since your exhaust system is modified leading up to it? I'm concerned about mine passing; its impossible to put the cat where it is in the donor car for the 3.4 DOHC since that would put it past the bumper..

I did not get any grief about it. I have both O2's and the stock cat. For the most part discretion must be use on just about ANY engine swap into the Fiero because ALL front wheel drive exhaust systems will fail the visual test right from the get go. If the exhaust system is compromised or modified in any way (all the way up to the cat) then it will not pass according to the strict letter of the law. So the fact that engine swaps are passed at all says that some refs use good sense and allow for some flexibility in the way the swap is done.

I may not do another Fiero swap for a while? We are looking into getting a New GTO with the LS2 and a 6 speed. We cant have a new car AND another Custom Fiero. But if we don't get the GTO we will do an LS1 or LS2 Fiero with a 6 speed G6 tranny. I have VERY little reason to believe that it wont pass inspection. First I will talk to the reff and lay out a game plan and then do the swap his way. If I can present the swap to him and show that it will be compliant even if some things are custom or modified it should get the thumbs up.

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: I did not get any grief about it. I have both O2's and the stock cat. For the most part discretion must be use on just about ANY engine swap into the Fiero because ALL front wheel drive exhaust systems will fail the visual test right from the get go. If the exhaust system is compromised or modified in any way (all the way up to the cat) then it will not pass according to the strict letter of the law. So the fact that engine swaps are passed at all says that some refs use good sense and allow for some flexibility in the way the swap is done. I may not do another Fiero swap for a while? We are looking into getting a New GTO with the LS2 and a 6 speed. We cant have a new car AND another Custom Fiero. But if we don't get the GTO we will do an LS1 or LS2 Fiero with a 6 speed G6 tranny. I have VERY little reason to believe that it wont pass inspection. First I will talk to the reff and lay out a game plan and then do the swap his way. If I can present the swap to him and show that it will be compliant even if some things are custom or modified it should get the thumbs up.

Cool, thanks for the info.
I'd go for the LS2 Fiero ;-)
Are you going on the mini Coast Run in January?

I dont think so? I may do a day trip out there?

nevermind

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 12-11-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Archie: Ok, fine. I thought the title of the thread was "Engine Swaps that have passed Ca smog" That's why I don't get involved in these kinds of threads. You answer the guy's question & there's always someone to come along & tell you you're wrong. So, never mind that I said anything. Archie

Dude don't take it the wrong way. I did not snap at you. I did not even say you were wrong. The person who started the thread clearly is looking into doing a swap. So the responses have been for the most part, helping him or anyone else get there car to pass inspection in CA with today's standards. So you are correct that some have passed. I only pointed out that the laws have changed and getting a SBC passed with today's standards is not as easy. Feel free to post ANY thing you feel will help some one. If you misinterpret my posts or just think I am some kind of jerk just PM me or Email me or post a reply to me. Remember not every one is out to get you. And reading on a forum makes it easy to misunderstand what people are saying because we don't see the body language or tone of voice. We only have a few Minot's to read then type an answer.

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 12-11-2005).]

Over the years many people have asked this question and those with experience try to answer it. The problem is the gray area where something is technically against the rules but periodically gets accepted by a referee (e.g. V8 on a manual where the manual trans was never offered in California, 3800SC on a manual).

I can't speak for others but I am reluctant to encourage someone to do a swap that is in the gray area only to get blown out of the water. I would feel bad and I don't want the responsibility. I know a few cars have gotten through that clearly shouldn't have (and I consider that good, not bad) but if I was doing a swap I wouldn't depend on having that same success. That is why it's important to go talk to the ref first with your idea and see what they think. If it's not gray, it's going to be easy. If it's gray there are options but you are taking risks. It's one thing to be arguing you installed the DOHC right vs you installed a combination that never existed.

Right or wrong, once recertified you are done (although there is a slight risk the smog tech will refuse to accept it if it seems fishy but that is rare). Also, I don't think it's wise to point out someones BAR sticker for a 1960 BMW Issetta swap into an 2004 E46 chassis and say "You accepted that, why not mine!?".

TK

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 12-11-2005).]

What Terry said.

Too much time and money invested in an engine swap to take the chance of being denied
registratiion. I would add also to not plan to venue shop. When you go to a carb smog
station, the tech will enter your car's id in his computer; if he gets a match he'll know you've
been rejected somewhere else and will, of course, reject you again.

Orville

The BAR Cert. I posted belongs to Harry Brattin out of San Diego.

If you read the links I posted you'll see all the stuff he did to the car to get it to passs including a Smog pump & single exhaust.

I know Harry went thru the proper paperwork etc. to get it certified because I remember talking to him as he was doing it.

You see Harry owns a BMW motorcycle dealership in San Diego. I would think that getting caught cheating to get a Fiero smogged could very well hurt his business very badly with the State.

So, I didn't post up a Cert. for some fella who cheated to get it thru smog. I posted up a Cert. for a guy who knows what he's doing and planned his swap, by checking in advance with his smog rep. & then getting it done. Anyone who thinks he would jeopardize his business to get a Fiero thru smog is wrong.

Now, if there was some FWD language in the CA rules when he did his Fiero then he must have found some exception to that rule that was acceptable to the smog gods.

Now I agree & I also recommend that you run your thoughts past the smog people before you build your car.

Archie

I think my conversations with BAR posted a year or so ago clearly indicate that many swaps that are we thought would be rejected would in fact be accepted. I don't see where one could *cheat* anyway (short of a bribe). I don't believe anyone suggested that particular swap passed via cheating and I don't know enough about that swap to know anyway.

I was just saying people have to avoid going at a swap based on "I heard someone did this or I did an illegal swap and they passed it" (none mentioned in this thread).

TK

quote Originally posted by Fierari: Particularly with a stock manual tranny. Looking through the archives I understand the 3.4 dohc and the 3800 series II have been tried but I don't see anywhere they have been a successful precident.

N* auto passed. I recommend getting the SPCNS tag and skip the every 2-year stupidity test.

Chop top passes test, now smog exempt forever!

------------------

Archie's Choptop conversion #11, #15, Redux & The Stealth

Has anyone actually read the California law on engine swaps? I have read the BAR web page and the Vehicle Code, but I cannot find the exact law on the whole engine matching the transmission thing. I have two cars that went though the BAR Referee and both times I was told what the law was by a person. I asked for the law number but they "could not remember". For the life of me, I cannot find the law that they quote. I do not want the web page or pamphlet, but the law itself.

Call them. That's what I do. They are actually quite friendly.

quote Originally posted by Brastic: Has anyone actually read the California law on engine swaps? I have read the BAR web page and the Vehicle Code, but I cannot find the exact law on the whole engine matching the transmission thing. I have two cars that went though the BAR Referee and both times I was told what the law was by a person. I asked for the law number but they "could not remember". For the life of me, I cannot find the law that they quote. I do not want the web page or pamphlet, but the law itself.

I have not read the laws for my self, nor am I an expert on this. And the laws change all the time. But I do know for a fact that if you have ANY check engine light you wont pass. Now the newer cars like OBDII have so many inputs from the tranny that if you took it off and replaced it with a manual it would set MANY codes. So right from the get go it wont pass. And the check engine light needs to be functional too. You just cant pull the bulb or hack the PCM to never turn on the light. Then there is the way they wright up the sticker, My car is now a 2000 Olds Intrigue according to the new door jamb sticker. So when I get it smogged they program the smog machine for an Intrigue and it shows them what to look for. The Intrigue never came with an manual tranny so it would fail the visual because the auto tranny has sensors in it that the PCM needs to run properly.

OH YAH don't for get that the smog laws in CA are just really STUPID, so don't waste your time trying to figure them out

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: But I do know for a fact that if you have ANY check engine light you wont pass. Now the newer cars like OBDII have so many inputs from the tranny that if you took it off and replaced it with a manual it would set MANY codes. So right from the get go it wont pass. And the check engine light needs to be functional too.

As I mentioned above, I used a completely stock 97 LT1 OBD-II ECM, and the ECM does not set any codes, even with the new smog check procedure, without any of the original auto tranny wiring connected to the ECM. All sensorns and indicators are functional in my car, including the "check engine" light--obviously or the car would not pass smog.

I should mention something really stupid that I ran into the last time I went to smog the car (March 2005). When smog regulations started requiring a smog check at speed, the usual place that I would take my other cars started charging $100 for a smog test. So this time around as I was searching for a cheaper place I noticed a smog-only station that was charging about $50; however, the place wouldn't perform a smog check unless the air cleaner was in a box. I informed them that the current configuration of my car was exactly the same as when it was certified, and that the certification sticker does not list such a requirement. Nonetheless, they would not do it. So I went to the shop where I took my other cars and they didn't even make a peep about any air cleaner nonsense. They just asked me general questions about the fiero.

[This message has been edited by cyrus88 (edited 12-12-2005).]

quote Originally posted by cyrus88: I should mention something really stupid that I ran into the last time I went to smog the car (March 2005). When smog regulations started requiring a smog check at speed, the usual place that I would take my other cars started charging $100 for a smog test. So this time around as I was searching for a cheaper place I noticed a smog-only station that was charging about $50; however, the place wouldn't perform a smog check unless the air cleaner was in a box. I informed them that the current configuration of my car was exactly the same as when it was certified, and that the certification sticker does not list such a requirement. Nonetheless, they would not do it. So I went to the shop where I took my other cars and they didn't even make a peep about any air cleaner nonsense.

Your completely correct Cyrus - and there in lies the issues with the SMOG Program in the state of CA.

There are those who are UNEDUCATED ABOUT PROGRAM SPECIFICS running the "daily-on going’s" of the program. If I had a nickel for every time that I have heard of a smog tech that said they would not test a car because of an intake that was not "stock / OEM" but didn’t violate the law we'd ALL be headed to a tropical beach.

I went through that with an intake on my 2ooo Trans Am – didn’t touch a single sensor / emissions requirement device but the almighty smog tech thought that he’d just ruffle a few feathers.

It's just like when I was in the Air Force, I saw it all the time - give an 18 yr old a weapon, and they all of a sudden walk on water at the base gates. Same to be said w/ most now, not all, Smog tech's - they know they OWN YOU when you pull in even though what spews out their mouth is flat out wrong.

Just down right frustrating....

Part of the problem is that the smog tech doesn't know if you are working for the state and out in the field checking how thorough (and legal) the techs are. If in doubt, throw you out. They won't be punished for telling you to go somewhere else and if you are a state inspector and they make a mistake, they can lose their license. They aren't going to risk that. Then add in the arrogance or plain laziness of some techs and it gets pretty frustrating.

It pays to find a smog shop you like and get to know them. Then when you show up with something odd, they aren't thinking the worst.

When I took my Ciera GT with the SC engine for it's first smog check the tech asked me right up front if I was an inspector. No, I am not; we talked and I started taking everything there. It was a friendly visit rather than a hassle.

TK

It's likely reading the actual law would be useless. It probably doesn't say much more than e.g. the BAR shall make and oversee a program to ensure automobiles meet their spec polution control. The BAR then wrote regulations which is what we're stuck with. So, for example, the car came with a check engine light therefore, to pass, there must be a functional check engine light. Similarly, the manufacturer certified engine transmission combinations therefore you must have one of those combinations. Given that mindset you can understand, in a bizarre sort of way, that the actual tailpipe test is just the icing on the cake rather than the whole cake.

So what is "the" correct/optimal exhaust emission, there isn't one. That's why there is such a wide range of emissions that actually pass the tailpipe test.

In essence when you get one of those exemption certifications you have become the manufacturer of the automobile so it now has to meet your specifications. Since that spec is not documented in any of their testing equipment they can't test to it so therefore it's exempt from testing.

But at least California could care less whether or not you have a functioning or even existing e-brake.

Richard

quote Originally posted by Fierari: But at least California could care less whether or not you have a functioning or even existing e-brake. Richard

Actually Richard, when I called--I think it was consumer affairs--to make an appointment with a referee for my car's inspection, I found out that one of the requirements was a working e-brake, or else the referee would not bother looking at my car.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20041015-2-045505.html

quote Originally posted by cyrus88: Actually Richard, when I called--I think it was consumer affairs--to make an appointment with a referee for my car's inspection, I found out that one of the requirements was a working e-brake, or else the referee would not bother looking at my car.

Hmmm,

I had an '83 chevy Citation X11 that the ebrake completely wore out by 1990 but nobody ever said a word during smog inspections through 2000. They used to put chocks on the non driving wheels as a matter of course. They do similarly in the dyno tests I've had done.

I know when you try and get a salvage title cleared the CHP safety inspection includes brakes but not any smog inspection I've ever had. Maybe a modification inspection is treated similiar to the CHP inspection.

But back to the original question that is why I am interested in precedents. Terry Kelley's thread was right on. If you do the upfront work and they agree to this or that mod that's a lot cheaper than taking your chances later.

I'm leaning towards waiting until I can find something from a Cobalt or Saturn ion. The 50 state legal SC kit makes it very attractive option assuming it's still 50 state legal if grafted to a manual Ecotec. If a complete California 3800SC/tranny combo shows up maybe but... Depends on how long the 2.8 lasts.

Richard