Although there have been several build threads on this swap I have seen very few at shows. Fieros at Auburn had 2 and Fierorama had 2. I realize these events were limited to the midwest but there seems to be more V8's out there than 3.4 DOHC engines. I know Dave Gunsel is doing one with MAF setup like mine but I would like to know, "How many people have done this swap?" "What would you do differently if you did another?" "What do you like or dislike about your swap?"
Last but not least if anyone has or is attempting to do a 96-97 motor with MAF setup with 94-95 ecm and manual transmission I would like to hear about your swaps.
Fieromadman I know you have done this and sorry I missed the NIFE meeting on this subject I would have liked to have been there but I was in the middle of a wiring dilema.
Thanks in advance for any responses.
Merry Christmas
[This message has been edited by Mike Murphy (edited 12-18-2005).]
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09:35 PM
PFF
System Bot
86GT3.4DOHC Member
Posts: 10007 From: Marion Ohio Registered: Apr 2004
I was one of the two at Fierorama, This engine seems to come up in spurts, ton of people were talking about it summer of 04, then died off, then came back early this year, then died off until recently, dont know whats up with that, lol. Dislikes.... hmmm.. Front spark plugs get water in them no matter what you do, and the aftermarket wires are CRAP. Ive been through at least 5 sets in 12 months. I keep blowing them up, but thats 95% my fault, no complaints there There is little aftermarket
Likes Can be passed off as stock Fast as hell REVS Easy install Doesnt really need mods to go fast unlimited cam timing options
Cant think of anything Id change if I did another, IMO the 5spd getrag is a MUST. Exaust sounds awesome. Add a turbo and its insane
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09:44 PM
Dec 19th, 2005
fieromadman Member
Posts: 2217 From: Oconomowoc WI, USA Registered: Jan 2003
I dont think that its impossible to keep water out of the front plugs, there is a few things that you can do to counteract this dilema. First off you can get some die-elctric grease and lube up the inside of the spark plug boots with that, darth says that alone will take care of the water problem, albit a little messy, and secondly you can make a shield like I did that covers the front plugs. I dont think that its impossible to make that problem go away because mine is a daily driver and I have no problems. My aftermarket spark plug wire (magnecor) have held up just fine so far, so i also dont have that problem, but it is possible to break any wires just by pulling on them the wrong way. While were on the subject of spark plug wires though, it may be a good time to bring up that i hate where they interfere with the rear window area, and i think that will be a PITA when it comes time to change them, but then again it seems like my engine comes out every year anyhow because im always doing something over winter which requires it to be pulled.
In response to Mike, there just arent as many 3.4 dohc swaps that are done compared to v-8 swaps. There are quite a few still, but they are all lower cost type swaps or done in daily drivers etc that are not show cars. Mine I would never consider a show car as it is truely daily driven and done on a teenagers budget. i think that as time goes on we'll see more and more of the 3.4 DOHC enges at shows because they are gaining popularity more and more in the fiero, and actually gaining more aftermarket support as time goes on too. If I did anoher swap i would do alot of things differently, but now over time I have been correcting them as we go anyhow. I'll start a list:
First off, i would not even mess around with the stock exhaust manifolds at all. i would at least have them ported out if not have shorty headers make like quickgta or drexter has.
Secondly, i would not use WCF fiero mounts, rodney dickmans are much better and i am so happy that i switched to his setup.
Thirdly, i would have run more hardline for fuel line to bring it out in the correct spot instead of having some soft line, looks neater and you have more controll over where the lines sit.
Fourth, I would have NEVER put the engine in with stock cam timing, changing it was such a huge improvement that it was stupid of me not to do that in the first place, and besides it was VERY easy to do.
fifth, I would have run my wiring harness in a different location so that it wasnt int he way of the oil fill, but that could be corrected if i switched to a 96-97 dohc front valve cover. Not that it is in the way too bad either, it just is an obvious non-stock looking thing.
sixth, I would have ran 3" exhaust instead of 2.5" just because 2.5" is stock and my engine is not very stock anmore so it could be a restriction, at least it is mandrel.
seventh, I wish that i would have hooked up a clutch switch in the first place because now that the wiring is all loomed i'm really dreading ahving to hook that up so that the 94-95 system functions properly when you press the clutch in. Not a big deal, i jsut need to get off my lazy butt.
i'm sure that there are other things that i would do differntly too, but i cant really think of anymore right now. i definatly think that the getrag was a wise choice.
Ok, dislikes: I really have been able to make this engine perform in a way that i like very much. one of the biggest dislikes is that I feel that the powerband is not really that much like a normal DOHC's. I would like it to have peak power right about where the rev limiter is set, and i know it sounds crazy, but i would also like the rev limiter to be set higher. i know that i could get light weight lifters for the engine that would allow me to rev higher, but i dont know if my mods will support power in that area. Maybe after i swap to the 96-97 intakes and slap my ported heads on! Theres little annoyances with this swap much like other swaps, one of them being that it will proove to be difficult to change the belt with the engine in the car, but then again, pulling the engine to me isnt a huge deal anyow.
Ive tried everything from FILLING the plug holes with dielectric to just lightly coating things. Ive got a weather strip running along the decklid, and a shield that sits over the front valve cover.
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02:44 AM
Steven Snyder Member
Posts: 3324 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Mar 2004
Apparently the rules of physics don't apply in some cases ;-)
I wouldn't say the 13 degree retard is a must. It definitely changes the feel of the motor; there is much less low end torque.. granted, I haven't fully tuned my fuel maps after the retard yet, but I certainly notice the lack of low end. The timing belt can be changed in the car; you just have to tilt the back of the cradle down. It doesn't take very long. You do need a thin wrench and short socket to get to the rear cog bolts though. The only things I don't like about this swap have to do with the motor itself. Its fairly rare so finding parts in the junkyard is not easy. Also, GM did a bad job engineering it. It's just a hack job DOHC conversion for the pushrod. It's well built but badly engineered. The cams weigh 10 lbs each, the cam carriers are 15 lbs each and seperate from the heads, and the motor retains a timing chain and jackshaft even though it uses a timing belt to drive the overhead cams. Because of the huge heavy cam carriers, there is little clearance in the engine bay. It sure looks bad-ass though. On the bright side, its very easy to improve the motor. A rear cam carrier cover can be adapted to the front with an oil fill welded in, giving better front clearance to the motor and making the oil fill more easily accessible. The dipstick tube can then also be bent further against the cam carrier so its easy to reach. Custom intake manifolds are easy to make due to the simple port design on the lower intake manifold. Cam timing is infinitely adjustable, and custom regrinds are available for $400 for a complete set of cams. A factory oil cooler is available to improve reliability. There are few vacuum lines to worry about. Sensors are all easily accessible and easy to replace. None hidden under manifolds or tucked behind brackets. Spark plugs are easy to change with some socket extensions.. even the front ones are easy if you mount the motor tilted back a bit or just bend/crack the front tubes; this wont damage them except to let them bend more. Wire routing is very easy to simplify; the wiring harness can be removed and reinstalled in just a few minutes. The factory exhaust arrangement (out the back) makes maintenance very easy. The starter can be dropped out in just a few minutes; there is no exhaust in the way. The ignition coils are just as easy to change. All said, I'd do the swap again, but not before I also built a 3800SC so I could make a 3.4 DOHC track-only car.
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04:40 AM
ltlfrari Member
Posts: 5356 From: Wake Forest,NC,USA Registered: Jan 2002
Lousy position of oil filler and dip stick. May move oil filler if I can get another rear cam cover but pretty much stuck with dip stick without stripping engine which I am loath to do unless I have to.
Inability to get at front plugs. I know it can be done but it is not easy.
Likes :-
Nice to have power without it being excessive. There are still plenty of cars out there that will still beat it, well mine at least, but the engine does suit the car well. Makes the car even more fun to drive than it was before.
Overall I would not change much of the swap I did. Mabe try to lower the engine about an inch so it clears the deck lid better (it barely clears it now). I don't intend to do much to it (read wife won't let me ) although it would be nice to turbo/supercharge it for that little bit of extra fun. Only other thing would be to use larger exhaust pipe like 2 1/2 inch instead of the 2 1/4 I used but only to slow the exhaust gasses down a bit to reduce noise, well that and a better muffler but as it is it's not 'too' bad. At least the exhaust noise drows out the whine of the fuel pump, but I cannot blame the engine for that.
i would make my dogbone more substancial so it doesn't look like a shade-tree mechanic made at and i would wire it up correctly so it doesn't stall like other people experience.
D22 is not hooked up on mine. I've got the switch, just not the nuts to fit it so I can mount it, but I've not had any problems or codes. Anyone know what it actually does, it's caled the 'clutch anticipation switch' on the diagrams I think.
So far as the dogbone is concerned, mine is rock solid.
my dogbone may not be that pretty right now - but its plenty strong - besides i'd rather have it be the weak link than the timing cover - I don't really even need mine since I have 4 mounts on the bottom of the motor and the engine never moved when i drove it before adding the dogbone
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12:36 PM
PFF
System Bot
86GT3.4DOHC Member
Posts: 10007 From: Marion Ohio Registered: Apr 2004
Originally posted by ltlfrari: Nice to have power without it being excessive. There are still plenty of cars out there that will still beat it, well mine at least, but the engine does suit the car well. Makes the car even more fun to drive than it was before.
I wouldnt say plenty, (I know mustangs suck but...) Ive put some serious hurts on a few V8 mustangs, whooped the crap out of a modified SI civic, gave a C6 vette a good run (wenrt really side by side so dunno who woulda won but he wasnt going anywhere) held dead even with a lightly modded Turbo WRX, outran my buddies modified supercharged regal, and tons others. Im eager to get beside new vettes and cobra mustangs because I know those are the only cars I'll ever see to give me a good run, everything else I just chuckle ahead of time becuause I know how its prolly going to end. These engines may not make the biggest numbers, but they make a large quantity of power, that is more over its peak band. May not be the fastest thing on the street but if you drive it right, pretty much puts you over every other stock car with minor exceptions, (obviously not gonna beat lambo or Z06 vette etc.)
As far as the stalling problem joshua, are you running a manual chip? I had the same problem until I went to a stick chip, then it was better, and once I hooked the VSS to the ECM is was perfect, I dunno anyone who is having stalling problems still, but every engine is a bit diffrent I suppose. As for the clutch switch it does what you'd think it would, tells the ECM to expect the clutch, and the ECM holds the RPMs a little higher for a few seconds to prevent stalling. Never bothered hooking it up in mine.
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01:08 PM
Mike Murphy Member
Posts: 2251 From: Greencastle, Indiana 46135 Registered: Oct 2001
The stalling issues I have heard about from Darth Fiero are predominatley on a 94-95 ecm with MAF and manual transmission. Fieromadman I beleive is running this and has to rev the engine after disengaging the clutch to prevent it from stalling as the ecm needs a signal that it has power to the auto transmission. You can't reprogram the chip for a manual but we had the decel fuel cutoff reset and did some different wiring mods to overcome this. Car is running but getting a new steering rack and an alignment before we can really test it out to make sure I do not have the same issue still. Great comments so far. I did not scrimp on plug wires went with AC DELCO that seem to fit darn tight so maybe no water ingress?
Looks like a longer weatherstrip that could mount behind the one some of the Fieros like mine still have but allow the water to run down and behind the head.
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01:58 PM
Steven Snyder Member
Posts: 3324 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Mar 2004
D22 is not hooked up on mine. I've got the switch, just not the nuts to fit it so I can mount it, but I've not had any problems or codes. Anyone know what it actually does, it's caled the 'clutch anticipation switch' on the diagrams I think.
So far as the dogbone is concerned, mine is rock solid.
With mine disconnected I get an error code every few days for the clutch switch. After the code is set the SES light stays on until the car is turned off and on, and the idle is locked in to a higher RPM to prevent stalling. The switch tells the ECM to open up the IAC if the clutch is pressed in to make sure the motor doesnt stall.
nice find on the water issue, if you have some left over or find it in shorter quantities i would be interested in purchasing some!
As for the comments that Josh made, i believe it was sarcasim. His car ahs the manual chip and does not stall when the clutch is pushed in nor does he have a shadetree mechanic type dogbone. i think that he was reffereing to some comments made in another thread with that one.
I do have a stalling issue with mine only when the clutch is pressed in after a longer period of 0% throttle. It can be cured by fooling the ECM into thinking that your throwing the (non-existant) auto transmission into neutral everytime that you push the clutch in. From my understanding it will act the same as a clutch anticipation switch by keeping the IAC open for a little while when it is thrown into neutral. I just have not taken the time to hook this up on my car yet. I got so used to driving it the way it is and just bliping the throttle that it isnt a huge deal unless someone else drives the car and then their like WTF?!
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04:00 PM
AaronZ34 Member
Posts: 2322 From: Colorado Springs, CO Registered: Oct 2004
I'm actually getting ready to order some of the material used for this - but it comes at a minimum length of 25' and its good for 500*
Kohburn if you are interested we could do some sort of "group buy" on this. Like calculate the final price, then the price for a 4-5ft section of the 25' length, then just mail them out. I'd be in on it!
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04:35 PM
ltlfrari Member
Posts: 5356 From: Wake Forest,NC,USA Registered: Jan 2002
nice find on the water issue, if you have some left over or find it in shorter quantities i would be interested in purchasing some!
As for the comments that Josh made, i believe it was sarcasim. His car ahs the manual chip and does not stall when the clutch is pushed in nor does he have a shadetree mechanic type dogbone. i think that he was reffereing to some comments made in another thread with that one.
I do have a stalling issue with mine only when the clutch is pressed in after a longer period of 0% throttle. It can be cured by fooling the ECM into thinking that your throwing the (non-existant) auto transmission into neutral everytime that you push the clutch in. From my understanding it will act the same as a clutch anticipation switch by keeping the IAC open for a little while when it is thrown into neutral. I just have not taken the time to hook this up on my car yet. I got so used to driving it the way it is and just bliping the throttle that it isnt a huge deal unless someone else drives the car and then their like WTF?!
I appreciate the comments and have to admit I am at a loss to why Josh would post a sarcastic response. I made mention in an earlier post on dogbones and mount fabrications that some did look like a shade tree mechanic did the work but nothing in my statement was directed at him or anyone in particular. In fact I remember viewing his photos on his posting and thought it looked very professional. If I offended anyone my apologies as it was not my intent.
[This message has been edited by Mike Murphy (edited 12-19-2005).]
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05:58 PM
joshua riedl Member
Posts: 1426 From: watertown wi USA Registered: Jan 2004
Kohburn if you are interested we could do some sort of "group buy" on this. Like calculate the final price, then the price for a 4-5ft section of the 25' length, then just mail them out. I'd be in on it!
ok, i'll go ahead and order it
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06:33 PM
AaronZ34 Member
Posts: 2322 From: Colorado Springs, CO Registered: Oct 2004
For cam regrinds: CHRF, Crower, and at least one other company. CHRF is like $100 each. Crower is $120 or $140 I think. I can't remember what the other company is. You will also need lash caps; they dont add material.
Hey guys, back to the D22, my ECM is off a 91 with Manual Trans. I have no wire at the D22 position, and the factory manual does not even show it. It does show up in the 92 factory book. So since i am running the 91 ECM and a manual trans, do you think this is a non-issue? Was the D22 a 92-93 thing??? Thanks.
PS, car goes in for exhaust next week, it should be running by the end of Jan. (with luck)
Rob
------------------ 88 TTop coupe (CJB #95), 96 3.4DOHC/5 speed in progress
Still working on this damn engine swap, maybe i'll have it ready next summer.
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12:13 PM
XzotikGT Member
Posts: 897 From: Spanaway, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2004
I have a 96 with a 91-93 harness. Mine threw a code at me when I didi not have the clutch swith hooked up to the d22 pin. I did have to add a pin to that location. Since I have hooked it up I havent had any codes. I did not notice any difference with or without it, just no more ses light. My car never had a stalling issue.
) although it would be nice to turbo/supercharge it for that little bit of extra fun. Only other thing would be to use larger exhaust pipe like 2 1/2 inch instead of the 2 1/4 I used but only to slow the exhaust gasses down a bit to reduce noise, well that and a better muffler but as it is it's not 'too' bad. At least the exhaust noise drows out the whine of the fuel pump, but I cannot blame the engine for that.
