Alright guys, im pretty sure im getting most of the big details figured out, but got some more details questions about this swap. i got an engine/trans/ecu/halfshafts and wiring out of a 01 GTP. im am sticking with the auto trans and just have a couple questions. 1. anyone got a wiring diagram that i can use to make my harness with? ive searched...multiple times, cant find anything. 2. fuel lines, whats suggested with these? 3. rad/heater hoses....once again, what are you guys doing with these? what rad hoses? and obviously the heater cores not in back, so what do i do with those 2 open ports? 4.Halfshafts. ive read multiple things about this, pontiac 6000, use stock GTP axles with manual fiero outers....which do i do? 5. keep reading use this tensioner, or that tensioner...since i got the GTP engine, the tensioners the right one isnt it? and also with the oil filter housing, will that be ok? What do i do wiht gauges?? also, when i pulled the engine and everything, i cut the harness at the passenger side firewall, was that ok, or do i need that? figured all those wires ran interior stuff and i didnt need it, but was wondering......i guess thats it....if anyone else has any tips, thatd be great...thanks alot

[This message has been edited by KeithGT (edited 01-22-2006).]

HUGE bump on this thread as I hope to be doing this REALLY soon.

yeah its easy to find alot of info about this swap...just some of this stuff is kinda vauge so i was hoping to get some of this cleared up....

quote Originally posted by KeithGT: Alright guys, im pretty sure im getting most of the big details figured out, but got some more details questions about this swap. i got an engine/trans/ecu/halfshafts and wiring out of a 01 GTP. im am sticking with the auto trans and just have a couple questions. 1. anyone got a wiring diagram that i can use to make my harness with? ive searched...multiple times, cant find anything.

I just posted the 2001 GTP L67 diagrams and pinouts to my website (www.gmtuners.com) for download. You can use them in conjunction with Fiero wiring diagrams to determine what wires need to be hooked up where.

quote Originally posted by KeithGT: 2. fuel lines, whats suggested with these?

You can do a couple of different things here. What I usually do is bend up my own steel fuel lines so not so much rubber hose is needed to connect the 3800's fuel rail to the stock Fiero fuel system. You can run straight rubber hose from the rail to the Fiero's fuel system but you have to be careful how you route it and make sure you use EFI-approved fuel hose and clamps.

quote Originally posted by KeithGT: 3. rad/heater hoses....once again, what are you guys doing with these? what rad hoses? and obviously the heater cores not in back, so what do i do with those 2 open ports?

For starters, let me just say the way I am about to explain how I set up my 3800 swap cooling systems is the way I DO IT. Other people might do it other ways, some might work some might have issues. This is just the way I do it. Before I get to that, let me first explain a couple of important things.

The stock alternator/tensioner bracket that comes on the 3800 Series II SC and N/A engines (as well as the Series 3 engines), as you know has the coolant passages going thru it for the heater core. What you may not know is that there is an internal passage in this bracket that connects both coolant circuits together. This serves the function of water pump bypass. I have talked to several people who have removed their bracket, capped off ports to the water pump or intake, etc; that have issues with collapsing thermostats and sometimes even blown heater cores! The reason why this happens is because the thermostat isn't always open. When it is closed, a lot of pressure can build on one side of the thermostat and in the heater core loop; especially if the engine is operating at higher RPM levels. A bypass circuit is needed to prevent this phenominon from occuring, which is why GM incorporated it into the tensioner bracket. So if you remove your tensioner bracket or disable the bypass circuit capability in some way, you really should add a bypass circuit somewhere else in the cooling system that will allow coolant to bypass the thermostat. Keep in mind you don't want this circuit to be very large either, I think the internal passage in the tensioner bracket only measures 5/16"-3/8" or so. It's hard to get to so I cannot provide you with an accurate measurement so that is my best guess from a visual standpoint.

Ok, now on to what I do for cooling systems. In most of my swaps I retain the functionallity and presence of the tensioner bracket, with some slight modifications. Coolant exits the lower intake manifold and travels to the bracket. It goes thru the bracket and comes out one of the heater hose nipples that point to the rear of the engine. It is to this nipple I connect a heater hose that runs to the hard line on the Fiero that is the supply for the heater hose. There are two hard lines that go to the front of the Fiero for the heater core. The line with the insulation on it is the supply, the other is the return. Most of the time I reuse the stock Fiero aluminum hardline that is already in the engine compartment on the right side. This cuts down on the amount of rubber hose I need to use (which is a good thing).

As for the heater return line, you can do a couple of things here. If you have an 87-88 car, you won't have a return line coming to the engine because it T'ees right into the right side coolant tube which feeds the water pump. If you have an earlier Fiero, you will need to either run a hose from the heater core return line to the other port on the 3800 tensioner bracket -or- you can purchase a lower radiator hose T that will allow you to dump the return directly into the lower radiator hose. Once you have delt with the heater return circuit, all you need to do is connect the right side coolant tube to the water pump and the stock 3800 thermostat housing to the left side coolant tube. For the right side coolant tube to water pump, I use Autozone lower radiator hose p/n: XL-1004. You have to trim it a little but it has worked great for me and clears the A/C compressor just fine. As far as the hose needed to connect the stock 3800's thermostat housing to the left side coolant tube, it gets more tricky. I have found that 4cyl cars have longer left side coolant tubes than you find on V6 cars. However, I use the same hose for both. Advance Auto Parts p/n E71075. This hose will work with both types of coolant tubes, although you may need to clamp on an extension for V6 cars or do some trimming.

Now for the all-important coolant fill. If you have an 87 or 88 car, then you will have the heater core return port left unused on the 3800 tensioner bracket. You can use this port as the engine fill-point. You can either buy a suitable cap to clamp onto this nipple after you fill the cooling system, or you can put a short length of hose on this nipple and clamp on a removable cap and put that under the dog-bone bolt access cover (removable plastic triangle next to right strut tower). If you have an earlier car, you can simply purchase a heater hose "T" connection and extend the t'eed hose to a suitable location where you can install a removable cap. In any case, you will want to get your fill point to be the highest point in the cooling system to aid in the coolant fill procedure.

quote Originally posted by KeithGT: 4.Halfshafts. ive read multiple things about this, pontiac 6000, use stock GTP axles with manual fiero outers....which do i do?

http://dtcc.cz28.com/swap/axles.htm

quote Originally posted by KeithGT: 5. keep reading use this tensioner, or that tensioner...since i got the GTP engine, the tensioners the right one isnt it?

Here is a pic of what I am building for the low-mount alternator bracket. These brackets will allow you to use the stock alternator that comes on the 99-up 3800 engines; and will also allow you to retain the stock tensioner bracket that also comes on those engines. Although, you will have to have the tensioner modified so the arm moves further towards the SC snout in order to use it with the low-mount alternator.

I am considering building these brackets for mail order soon.

There are a couple of other vendors on here that are offering a bracket that is a combination of a stock Fiero alt bracket, stock 3800 tensioner bracket, and a dog-bone bracket. With this bracket you can use the stock Fiero alternator, but the coolant passages in the 3800 tensioner bracket are eliminated so you will need to do something different for your heater hose hookups.

quote Originally posted by KeithGT:and also with the oil filter housing, will that be ok? What do i do wiht gauges?? also, when i pulled the engine and everything, i cut the harness at the passenger side firewall, was that ok, or do i need that? figured all those wires ran interior stuff and i didnt need it, but was wondering......i guess thats it....if anyone else has any tips, thatd be great...thanks alot

For the oil filter housing, this one will work fine with the popular WCF/PR-type, under-the-crank motor mount:

There are many other design/style oil filter mounts GM used on these engines, I have pics of a few on my website at: http://dtcc.cz28.com/swap/3800.htm

As for your stock Fiero gauges, here is what you can do. You can use the oil pressure sender off your stock Fiero engine on the 3800. You may need some adapters or elbows to get it to work with your particular swap, depending on what you do concerning mounts and brackets. As for the coolant temp gauge, you can get a dual coolant temp sensor from GM, p/n: 10096181. You will need a different connector to use with this sensor, so you might want to pick one up while you are standing there at the parts counter (or you can go to the junkyard and cut one off almost any 96-98 3800 n/a and SC powered GM car). OEM CTS connectors of the type required for this "dual" sensor have 3 wires, 1 black, 1 yellow, and 1 green. The yellow and black go to the computer. The green wire gets connected directly to your Fiero's coolant temp gauge wiring (goes thru the C500 connector).

-ryan

------------------
power corrupts. absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Custom Computer Tuning | Engine Conversions | Turbocharging | www.gmtuners.com

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 01-23-2006).]

Darth, you are the man, I just saved this thread in 4 places. I honestly did, I even saved it on a computer outside of my house in case it burns down.

For some reason I just now found out about your site, and after looking around, thinking and such, I see that ALOT of your swaps use the 4t60e trans insted of the 4t65e-hd trans. The reason I am so interested in this is because I am planning a swap and have a low mileage 4t60e in the backyard. I am currently thinking of buying a l67 for about $600, and I think If I can use my 4t60e, I will be able to meet my 13 second car for less than a grand challenge. (current car cost is $125, and trans will cost roughly $250, motor could possibly be $600, and I have a strong duke+th125 left after the whole deal)

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 01-23-2006).]

Thanks Darth for the pointers. I'm also in the process of swaping a 3800SC into a 86 GT with a Getrag 5 speed.

I have also found the Loyde at Fast Fieros has a lot of information on this. http://www.fastfieros.com/

Darth - i know you do the ECM programing and such. is that required for my 3800sc swap to have it reprogrammed? or does it just improve performance? (not like that is a bad thing..)

so there is no option to keep the alternator in the stock location, with the tensioner? and i didnt realize the heater core lines ran the whole car, i guess i just figured since the rad is up front, along with the heater core, that they just hooked em up up front somewhere. and for the trans, that is the 4t65e-HD trans right? thanks alot ryan, you do the programming right? ill prob be contacting you shortly about that....

You can keep the alternator on the stock GTP bracket. You will have to change the belt routing (not difficult, I should have a picture around here of that), or keep the power steering pulley but remove the vains so it because just another pulley. Keep in mind that you will have to notch out your decklid to clear the alternator.

I'll see if I can find pictures when I had the alternator up top.

Alt low mounted with heater core support 85/86

Alt 99+ low mounted...

Alt up top with no power steering

Loyde
http://www.fastfieros.com

KiethGT, What are you planning to do for exhaust headers?

keeping the stock ones, just ganna run the exhaust off of that

quote Originally posted by 85sliverGT: Darth - i know you do the ECM programing and such. is that required for my 3800sc swap to have it reprogrammed? or does it just improve performance? (not like that is a bad thing..)

More than likely you are going to need the ECM/PCM reprogrammed to eliminate the theft deterrant (VATS, Pass-Key, etc), as well as disable any trouble codes that might set due to the abscence of other devices that might have been hooked to it in the original car. Yes, reprogramming can increase performance as well, but how much performance increase you can expect vs. the stock programming is going to depend on what other mods you have done to the engine. Of course, altering the electronic auto trans shift points can help a lot too.

quote Originally posted by KeithGT: so there is no option to keep the alternator in the stock location, with the tensioner? and i didnt realize the heater core lines ran the whole car, i guess i just figured since the rad is up front, along with the heater core, that they just hooked em up up front somewhere. and for the trans, that is the 4t65e-HD trans right? thanks alot ryan, you do the programming right? ill prob be contacting you shortly about that....

You can keep the alternator in the stock location, and use the stock tensioner that comes on the 3800. The problem is tho, in most cases the alternator is going to interfere with the deck lid which will require some trimming, unless you have the engine mounted to the cradle as low as possible, and use the smaller, Delphi-type 97-98 GTP alternator, like the one pictured in my sig.

The trans in the pic I showed earlier is the 4T65-E HD. However, my low-mount alternator will work with the 4T60-E as well.

Let me say that everyone has an opinion. Opinon's are sometimes great idea's, and sometimes, just a comment with no fact to back it up.. When I tell someone via email, phone, website, whatever.... that I do something one particular way, it is because that way is tried and tested to a high degree of sucess. I have no intentions of mis-leading someone in a swap of any engine to the Fiero. I have been doing swaps that are considered "hybrid" for over 20 years time. I wrote a FAQ and posted it on my webiste http://www.fastfieros.com/tech/3800_FAQ.htm .. I will post it here also. It address the issues of the water inlet/outlet of the alt bracket assembly, and the EP376 AC Delco fuel pump... I provide test data from a very good source on the fuel pump, and GM engineer information on the alt bracket assembly.

Loyde

FAQ > 3800SC / NA

3800 SuperCharged or 3800 Natural Aspirated engine FAQ for the DIY

This document is targeted to the consumer that needs to know how things work, and wants to be educated in the swap process of putting a 3800 based engine to the Pontiac Fiero.

There are many places on the internet these days with information on the installation of engines in a hybrid environment. Its concept to take an engine from one car, and decide to put it in yet another car of different year model and even make. While some swaps have been around for years with lots of development targeted to this installation process, not all things are done the same way by everyone.
There are "opinions", there are facts, and then there are idea's. Everyone must try something in order to really find out accomplishment or failure. You learn something new everyday, or its a very boring day if you ask me. You learn from mistakes and help someone else not make the same mistake if you are a good person.
More about opinions: "UNLESS" you have tried and tested a method, or you have emailed the GM engineer team that knows the correct answers, then you have an opinion. I have both opinions, and I take the time to find the answers from the correct sources. There is one individual in the Fiero community that likes to brag about all his degrees and certifications in the automotive industry, yet he lacks practical knowledge and application. Being text book smart is great, but actually doing the work and testing one self will lead to discoveries that either someone who wrote the book is wrong, or they just plain wrote what they wanted you to read, and not what was completely true. If you have an idea try it, but don't beat up on someone else's idea's because you think it is wrong. If no one tried to put 3800's in Fieros, we might not have this great install we have today. Someone is always first, then there are always follower's after that. Be an inventor and share your ideas. Here are my idea's and opinions about installing 3800's to Fieros. Please note that my project page is loaded with pictures upon pictures of my installs. You can clearly see that 2002 thur today, my installs have evolved to a very nice art, and cleanliness of the installation of the 3800 SuperCharged engine to the Fiero.
The most common questions are :
1. ENGINES: What engine do I find in the salvage yard for my installation. There are several 3800 based engines. I will cover what I consider the easiest to find and it has all the "right" stuff to start with. First, we want power and dollar for dollar value in what we do. The 3800 SuperCharged engine in Series II 99-03 from the Pontiac Grand Prix GTP is about the best you can buy. It has the correct oil filter housing, the correct supercharger tensioner assembly, the correct engine coolant temp sensor, and a few other small details that make this engine the best choice to look for.
2. TRANSMISSIONS: So now we have our engine thoughts. Next is the transmission. In the same GTP is the 4T65eHD. Again the 99-03 makes the best choice for ease of time and research on what transmissions are available. What if your Fiero is a manual transmission Fiero? You will most likely be wanting to keep that manual transmission. You will hope it is a 5 speed GETRAG from the 86-88 Fiero's. The Isuzu is an ok choice also. The 4 speed MY8 from the 84 Fiero is not that bad, but very hard to find these. The most popular manual I have installed 3800's to is the GETRAG 5 speed.
3. WIRING/PCMs: This one item is the "make it" or "break it" of the project. What computer will you run? Is OBDI or OBDII better? First thing to consider is that if you run a 4T65eHD automatic, you will have to run OBDII wiring and computer. If you run a 4T60e transmission, I am the only person to date I know of that has programmed a 3800SC to this transmission on OBDII. You have to use 1997 wiring, and PCM for this. I do the wiring for OBDII systems only. I do not support OBDI computers with programming, nor wiring. Why? OBDII is designed for the Series II and Series III engines. There are 4000+ parameters in a PCM to control the engine and transmission on OBDII. I am not sure the number on OBDI, but it far less. Do you really need all these parameters? No. Only the important ones that make the engine run the best, and the transmission shift the best. There are so many good reasons to run 99+ wiring, and 99+ code in PCM's. It all has to do with signal quality, and design of engine components working with the code they were designed for. Lets take the MAF (mass air flow) meter. This device contributes to the IPW (injection pulse width) alot. This device in a Series II engine is calibrated to the software code in an OBDII computer. The code in a OBDI is not calibrated to this device. You can cheat the tables in OBDI to a point to make it work, but you are cheating yourself in performance. Then there is IFR ( Injector Flow Rate) vs MAP. OBDI does not even allow for this one signal parameter, so modifying to enough power were 42 pound injectors are needed is going to be very difficult to get a proper tune. This one subject I could write a book on the differences, and what is an advantage vs disadvantage. Think about it this way. OBDI is dead. Zero development in GM or anywhere else for that matter. OBDII has about 2 more years and OBDIII will be on the way. CAN is already in the cars and trucks today, and this will be the future of OBDIII. Dont be left behind in your wiring and PCM controlling your 3800 Series II or Series III engine.
4. Axles: Get the axles from the GTP if you are running the 4T65eHD. They dont fit the Fiero directly, but one of them (drivers side) will be used to make the right side axle. If you are using the Fiero manual transmission, then you will use the axles from this. I will try to expand more on this later with pictures.
5. Mounts: Yet another problem to decide on. Poly or rubber? Rubber will NOT hold a 3800 SuperCharged engine in a Fiero that is used to launch from a red light like you are drag racing. With gentle street driving, there are some rubber mounts that might work. I dont use rubber mounts in my installs. I use Poly Urethane with nice steel casings. These mounts should hold a STOCK 3800SC with no dogbone support. If you add a 3.4 pulley to your engine, this is not stock, and you will need dogbone support on the top side of the engine, or lower side at the tailshaft housing.
6. Dogbone: Yes, you need one if you do not stay with a completely stock engine.
7. Exhaust: Another area I can write a book on what works, and what really works great. Point A to B solutions using the stock Fiero routing method is no longer accepted by me. I dont like the CAT or any part of the exhaust running behind the gas tank area, and under the cradle. This causes so many heat related issues, and other problems. I perfer to use the stock 3800SC exhaust over headers that were designed around specs that hurt the performance of the engine vs helping it. The only 2 products that I really like are SLP headers, and TOG headers. TOG just went out of business either short term, or perhaps long term as of 1-15-06. SLP makes a great header, but I dont like the coating they use, and I dont like the slip joint connection for the cross over. I have lots of pics of different exhaust on my website project page http://www.fastfieros.com/projects .
8. Low Mounting Alternator: There is some speculation documented on the internet about the heater core support of an engine, and what it does. I say heater core support because there is one area that effects another area. The alternator sits on a large aluminum bracket assembly. This alternator conflicts with the decklid of the Fiero. This gets complicated here, so please read carefully. The 97 and some 98 GTP alternators are large. This will not clear the decklid on the coupe nor the fastback models. Now, the 98 had a change to a smaller version, and this will clear the coupes, but not the fastbacks. Same with the 99-06 GTP or about any other model of car the 3800 comes from, the alternator is smaller, and it will clear the coupes decklid, but not the fastbacks. So, in comes the idea to move the alternator to the lower area where the power steering pump was at. We call this "low mount alt" assembly. I build two different types of low mounts. Each supports the different alternators, and it also has some different function of tensioning. Low mount alt bracket for using the Fiero alternator is one way. I build this assembly out of the Fiero V6 alt bracket, the 3800 alt bracket, the 3800 aluminum dogbone bracket. We are using the Fiero alt as the piviot point to tighten the belt. The old tensioner is welded stationary in this application. Now, the second version supports the 99-06 alternator found on the 3800 engines. This alternator is smaller, it is stationary, so the tensioner is used to keep the belt in tension. I build both versions usually based on what the customer wants to use for an alternator and what is available to the customer for usage. Alot of engines do not come with accessories, so the consumer will want to use the alternator from the Fieros 2.8 V6 engine. Now we move to heater core support because if you low mount, it will change this alot.
9. Heater Core Support / Why that little transfer port is in the alt bracket assembly: This area has created some opinions to be publicly targeted as "improper" method of installation procedures. Why attack someone with your opinion about how something is done? Why not apply a proper test environment and back that opinion up with test data showing it is right or wrong to do something? Well, here at FastFieros, I do test all aspects of my procedures and methods of application. When this attack started coming from one of my competitors, I decided to email the GM engineers I was talking with about the EcoTec projects I was working on. They in turn got me in contact with the support group for the 3800 engines. I cannot overuse my communication with GM people, as they tend to not answer emails very often anyway. So, what is the problem? The low mount delete's the heater core input and outputs of the bracket assembly. You ask so what... Well, the bracket assembly has a drilled water passage. Its a 5/32nds hole in most of the brackets, and 3/16ths in others. I remember the first day I saw the thing cutting open those brackets to make the low mount assembly and thought, humm, must be there for some reason. It is drilled and plugged from the backside where you cannot see the plug. Why go to all that trouble for a little hole smaller than a typical pencil. My first thought was water circulation to prevent pressure from building in the system. However, it made no sense to this because the routing of the cooling system as a whole. Picture attached here > (well, I will get one later posted)

As we can see here, the flow is from the intake manifold to the alternator bracket, to the heater core, back to the alternator, and into the water pump housing on the suction side. Now, why have that little hole there if the flow is in a circle. Well, the heater core is not always circulating coolant. Also, I have received so many of these alternator bracket assemblies, there are versions out there that are plugged on the inlet side, and one version where it is plugged on both sides of the inlet and outlet. So, if we plug the inlet and outlet of the alternator bracket assembly, the little transfer hole is all that is left for the coolant to flow from the intake outlet to the water pump return side of that housing. What does this little 5/32nds hole do? Pressure relief? No. It keeps circulation when those inlet/outlets are blocked so a cooling effect is maintained on the alternator bracket assembly. The alternator creates alot of heat. Aluminum is a great heat dissipater but, when you have 200 degree coolant circulating in the material also, it creates a better cooling effect. Remember, some heater cores have valves to stop coolant flow completely, and some applications of the 3800 in cars do not use the inlet/outlet of the alternator bracket assembly. The flow is kept by this 5/32nds hole drilled between those two points of water circulation. GM engineers have always looked for ways to cool items in cars. Heat is a car worse enemy inside the engine, and outside in the engine compartment. Lets look at the Fiero. GM engineers put a blower fan in the right rear of the V6 85-87 cars to blow cooler air on the alternator, and the coil. It does not seem to help much, but hey, they tried. In 88, they left this device out of the car to reduce production costs, and it did not work very well anyway. Then another example of GM engineers using coolant to heat a device. The throttle body. They have coolant passing though tubes on the Fiero to heat the throttle body. Same way on the throttle body of the 3800's. They have coolant passages that pass coolant from the intake to the supercharger, then to the throttle body. All these efforts to cool and heat at the same time. Cool the supercharger, heat the throttle body.
10. Thermostat housing: Here we discuss what thermostat I use and why. The Fiero thermostat housing is a nice unit. It provides easy access to the thermostat, and it allows a fill point at the engine. The 3800 thermostat is under a housing that does not allow easy access, and it does not provide a fill point. I modify the Fiero thermostat housing to provide 3 functions. Fill point of coolant to engine with ease, change thermostat or remove for diagnostic purposes, heater core support output to heater core. These 3 functions are critical to a happy cooling system on the Fiero. Air in the system creates steam, steam causes extreme hot spots in the cylinder heads and leads to blown head gaskets. You must get all the air out of the cooling system in a Fiero, and it is difficult. Heater core output to heater core is just that. It allows coolant flow in a easy way to of hooking up to the Fiero existing 5/8ths heater hose. Thermostat to use. I like the Fiero thermostat because it can be purchased in several different temperature ranges. I use 180's. There is a huge difference in quality of thermostats sold for this style of housing. The stainless steel version is the strongest. The brass version is the weakest. DO NOT use the brass version if you can find the stainless steel ones. The brass versions have been known to collapse. It pushes up on the cap hard enough to bent inside the housing. This leads to another point of problem I have heard many times. The cap is bending the housing. Well, the housing is getting weak from rust most likely. I have seen about 300 thermostat housing for the Fiero. I can tell you I have seen some thin enough I can bent the lip edges with my fingers. These housings rust when a V6 engine sits for long periods with no coolant in the system. The coolant has rust inhibitors to keep steel from corroding. Please check your thermostat housing carefully. I bend blast all housings for the welding process, and repaint every one I build.
11. Fuel Pump: Here is yet another area I have been attacked on from others on the internet. Again, they provide only theory's from text books and no real data to support their claims. I have taken the time to send a fuel pump to Kinsler Fuel Injection for flow data on my pump of choice. I use the EP376 AC Delco part. Why? Well, its a AC Delco part for one thing. I have never purchased a bad one, and never to this date had to remove one, nor any customer called and told me the fuel pump went out. So what is this EP376? It comes from the 94 Chevrolet Corvette with an LT1. Now, you would think if a fuel pump can deliver fuel to a V8, it can support a V6 easy. Well, that could be true, but we are dealing with a supercharged engine, with 38 pound injectors. So what is the data and what is so recommended beyond this EP376? The Walbro 255. Now there are several versions of the 255 to start with. NOT all are created equal in flow. Flow? What is flow compared to pressure? I could write a book on flow vs pressure, but it is beyond the scope of this FAQ at this time. Lets just say, we want about 204 lbs per hr on the injectors. How do I know this, and what is the flow data? I spent the money for the test data to make sure I was not creating a problem for someone, and know that my installs are the best I can make them for people. Here is the email directly quoted from Greg at Kinsler Fuel Injection....
Loyde,
Typical boosted engine on gasoline runs at approx. 0.6 - 0.7 BSFC, SO to produce 290 hp you would need approx. 175 - 203 lbs/hr.
Guess your injectors at 38 lbs/hr @ 45 PSI would mean with 48 PSI each injector at 100% would be 39.2 lbs/hr per injector X 6 = 235 lbs/hr ---- so at 75% duty cycle you would have 176 lbs/hr to the engine / 87% duty cycle you would have 204 lbs/hr to the engine.
These numbers should be well within a nice safety zone.
Greg
--
Greg Murchison
Fax # 248-362-1032
gregm@kinsler.com www.kinsler.com
Kinsler Fuel Injection
Now, the test data provided on this pump...
Loyde,
1) There are approx. 6- models of Walbro 255 pumps Earl is out of the
office till next week, I talked to Mike we did not run a Walbro at
your PSI spec's.
Here are the AVERAGE flows of three different models
PSI lbs/hr Amp
0 500 4.2
20 450 5.4
50 365 8.4
70 300 12.0
100 120 18.0
2) Injector flows MUST be based on the test pressure.
There is NO true standard. So when someone states a flow, they
MUST state the pressure which that flow was measured at.
Same problem with pumps - people give false info and even talk about
it incorrectly. They don't really understand how the fuel system works.
Biggest problem - people qoute flow numbers without any pressure load
on pump. Look at above numbers - you can see how important knowing
the pressure is.
Most OEM injectors are referenced at 43 or 45 PSI - BUT that does NOT
mean they are.
Most people when talking injector flow are referring to static, or full open.

NOW, the EP376 test data
Loyde,
All standard pump test are 13.2 volts
Your pump
PSI lbs/hr amps
0 363 6.2
10 325 6.7
20 298 7.2
30 275 7.7
40 247 8.1
50 217 8.6
60 188 9.2
70 148 9.8
80 80 10.3
Average Walbro 255
PSI lbs/hr
0 500
40 368
80 230
If you need more info, let me know
Greg
--
Greg Murchison
Fax # 248-362-1032
gregm@kinsler.com www.kinsler.com
Kinsler Fuel Injection

SO, in conclusion to this issue, the EP376 supports the 3800SC to about 325HP with no problems. People who are modifying there engines to more than 325HP are most likely already going to know they need a Walbro 255, but the average consumer that wants a nice quiet pump, easy to purchase at any GM dealer, or even AutoZone carries these, the EP376 will work fine. I should know, I have put about 25 of them in 3800SC applications with ZERO failures or problems tuning. Its called practical application, and not text book reading.
There are many more questions I want to answer about the installation of the 3800 to the Fiero, but I need to end at this time. Please call me anytime 10am - 10pm central time, 7 days a week. My phone number is my cell phone number. I don't like to spend 75 minutes on the phone talking about installations procedures, but I certainly have many times. You have questions and idea's, I have answers and opinions to help you...
Good luck !

Loyde

Great write up by everyone here! Lots of great information is up and I thank you all.

I'm not trying to hijack the 3800 thread like this, but has any one ever laid out a "stick man" type of picture of what the ideal plumbing route for the water system would be? Honestly I am a tad bit confused here as to how I should plumb up my 3800 N/A motor. I thought I had it together but I'm not so sure now.

My goal was to use the two smaller ports at the front of the intake and water pump assembly and plumb them up to my 88 coupes stock heater system. Then I would use the stock heater hoses locations to feed the proper hot/cold lines up to the front and back.

Any tips or ideas welcomed.

88Ironduke

------------------
Pilots with out maintainers are just pedestrians with a cool jacket and sunglasses.
I.Y.A.M.Y.A.S.

quote Originally posted by 88Ironduke: Great write up by everyone here! Lots of great information is up and I thank you all. I'm not trying to hijack the 3800 thread like this, but has any one ever laid out a "stick man" type of picture of what the ideal plumbing route for the water system would be? Honestly I am a tad bit confused here as to how I should plumb up my 3800 N/A motor. I thought I had it together but I'm not so sure now. My goal was to use the two smaller ports at the front of the intake and water pump assembly and plumb them up to my 88 coupes stock heater system. Then I would use the stock heater hoses locations to feed the proper hot/cold lines up to the front and back. Any tips or ideas welcomed. 88Ironduke

You have an 88 car. The 87/88's have the heater core return at the right side coolant tube. No action needed.
You have a 4 cylinder engine coming out. The input side of the heater core was at the intake manifold. The tube runs along the right side frame rail.

Now the output of the 3800 is at the alt/heater core support bracket assembly. The older model like the one shown in pic is marked with an arrow pointing up, and one pointing down. The one up is the output, the one down is input.

You will plug the one pointing down (input to water pump housing)... GM has a nice thick rubber plug that goes on this. I think I have seen them for sale in the help section at AutoZone.

The arrow pointing up (output) to the heater core needs to attach to that tube running along the right side frame rail.

Now, if you are doing low mount alt. Then you will need to modify the Tstat housing to provide output to heater core, or some have tapped the output at the intake just under the supercharger, but this hole is an odd size for a standard NPT tap. I use a metric freeze plug to block this passage since I do not use it.

Loyde

[This message has been edited by FastFieros (edited 01-25-2006).]

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: Let me say that everyone has an opinion. Opinon's are sometimes great idea's, and sometimes, just a comment with no fact to back it up.. There is one individual in the Fiero community that likes to brag about all his degrees and certifications in the automotive industry, yet he lacks practical knowledge and application.

Who would you be talking about?

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: If you have an idea try it, but don't beat up on someone else's idea's because you think it is wrong.

Can't disagree here.

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: OBDII is designed for the Series II and Series III engines. There are 4000+ parameters in a PCM to control the engine and transmission on OBDII. I am not sure the number on OBDI, but it far less. Lets take the MAF (mass air flow) meter. This device contributes to the IPW (injection pulse width) alot. This device in a Series II engine is calibrated to the software code in an OBDII computer. The code in a OBDI is not calibrated to this device. You can cheat the tables in OBDI to a point to make it work, but you are cheating yourself in performance. Then there is IFR ( Injector Flow Rate) vs MAP. OBDI does not even allow for this one signal parameter, so modifying to enough power were 42 pound injectors are needed is going to be very difficult to get a proper tune. This one subject I could write a book on the differences, and what is an advantage vs disadvantage. Think about it this way. OBDI is dead. I am not sure the number on OBDI

With all due respect, if you don't know much about OBD1, then why are you making comments and assumptions in an attempt to make it sound like it is incapable of working with a 3800 Series II engine? I have reprogrammed over 60 OBD-1 computer chips to run the 3800 Series II engine. So far, most have not had any issues. I will admit a few people have run into issues, but those people did have highly modified engines which require much more tuning work to get running just right, despite what computer you have running it. I have reprogrammed a couple of OBD-2 3800 PCMs in my time also, one controlling a highly modded 3800 Series III engine. Despite the fact that was an OBD-2 PCM, it still required a lot of tuning to work with the cam, rockers, exhaust, etc that Series 3 engine had on it.

As far as performance is concerned, this discussion has been brought up before. Aside from not being able to control the 4T65-E HD trans, there is no performance "downgrade" you get by using the OBD-1 computer. Allow me to explain...

I have sitting here in front of me the February 2006 issue of GM High-Tech Performance Magazine. On page 80, there is a 1987 Buick Regal Grand National featured that runs 9.90sec @ 135mph in the 1/4 mile. As I look down the data file in this article, that tells what the car has as far as mods, I see that this vehicle is still running a STOCK 1987 GN COMPUTER, with an aftermarket chip. Now, the computers used in the GN's are of 80's technology, and only used a 4kb chip. The OBD-1 94-95 3800 computers I use on most of my swaps use a 64kb chip. The OBD-2's use larger programs. Point here is that appearantly there is little drawback in performance when using an "earlier" computer system because the 80's technology, pre-OBD-1 GN computer had no problem propelling that turbo V6 powered 3400lb car to 9.90sec in the 1/4 mile. And about the "OBD-1 is dead" comment Loyde made, I must disagree. There are STILL new innovations coming out even with the 1987 GN computers today! Did you know the aftermarket ECM programming world has produced a custom chip for one of these computers that allows the end user/driver to change settings between things like open loop idle, theft deterrant, and lean cruise all by stepping on the gas pedal and shifting the gears before the engine is started? The factory GN computer never had this ability. But the aftermarket figured it out! OBD-1 is dead? I think not. Call up Red Armstrong or Casper's Electronics and try to tell them that "OBD-1 is dead". Post their response here.

As far as the MAF and larger injectors issues, well I am running a 98 MAF and 42.5 lb/hr injectors in my 3800 Series II Turbocharged Fiero and don't have any problems with tuning or getting the IPW I need at WOT/full boost; so I don't know what you are talking about here. Yes, the OBD-2 PCM's have a MAP sensor, but it isn't used under boost unless there is a problem with the MAF, or the OS in the computer is reprogrammed to run it in Speed Density mode. Yes, there is a table in the OBD-2 PCM for injector flow vs. MAP, but according to my info that table is only valid from 10kpa to 100kpa of manifold pressure. IE: It has no effect under boost.

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: Dont be left behind in your wiring and PCM controlling your 3800 Series II or Series III engine.

If you are using a 4T65-E HD trans in your swap, then you have no choice but to use an OBD-2 PCM. I have never disagreed with this point. However, as my previous point discussed, you are NOT getting "left behind" if you use an OBD-1 PCM to control your engine. Appearantly, the real purpose of this comment was that if you use an OBD-1 PCM on your swap, somebody is going to get left behind concerning making money programming PCM's. Why this is such a big deal, I don't know. I am NOT the only one burning custom chips for the OBD-1 3800 computers. I am not going to post opinions disguised as facts just to convince someone to run a particular computer system that I just so happen to have programming support for. Isn't there enough business in the Fiero community to go around? Geez.

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: 5. Mounts: Yet another problem to decide on. Poly or rubber? Rubber will NOT hold a 3800 SuperCharged engine in a Fiero that is used to launch from a red light like you are drag racing. With gentle street driving, there are some rubber mounts that might work. I dont use rubber mounts in my installs. I use Poly Urethane with nice steel casings. These mounts should hold a STOCK 3800SC with no dogbone support. If you add a 3.4 pulley to your engine, this is not stock, and you will need dogbone support on the top side of the engine, or lower side at the tailshaft housing.

I disagree. Rubber mounts WILL hold a 3800 Supercharged engine in a Fiero. It will even hold a 3800 Series II Turbocharged engine in a Fiero cutting 1.7sec 60' times. I should know, that is what I have been using in MY Fiero for the past 30,000 miles and countless 1/4 mile dragstrip passes without any failures! Poly is nice, but what didn't get mentioned here is the noise and vibration poly mounts transfer to the passenger cabin. Surely, if someone is concerned about the noise of an aftermarket fuel pump, they are not going to want poly mounts, especially on a 90 deg V6 engine. Why? 90 degree V6 engines do not run the smoothest, especially at idle. That is why GM designed the 3800 engines with a balance shaft. This balance shaft works very well to cancel out the uneven firing pulses generated by the design of a 90 deg V6. Those of you who have driven cars with and without balance shafts and 90 deg V6's will understand what I am talking about. However, the balance shaft does NOT work very well at idle. Therefore, unless you have the idle speed jacked way up, you are going to "feel" the engine to a greater degree at "normal" idle speeds if you chose poly mounts. Don't get me wrong, poly mounts are nice and are more durable than rubber. But I have designed and built both my own poly mount, and rubber mounting solutions and used one version or another on all my swaps. They have been tested and improved to a point that they are durable and reliable at any power level (within reason). You don't HAVE to run poly mounts, unless of course the person doing your engine swap can't fabricate their own mounts or find any that use rubber.

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: 6. Dogbone: Yes, you need one if you do not stay with a completely stock engine.

I disagree. I have done several 3800 S2 SC swaps with modded engines that did NOT use a dog-bone mount. Of course, these were all auto cars; as the transmission provides a right rear corner in which to place a mount. Using an auto trans, you can have mounts at all 4 corners of the powertrain, poly or rubber, that will support any power level (within reason) without requiring a dog-bone mount.

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: 7. Exhaust: Another area I can write a book on what works, and what really works great. Point A to B solutions using the stock Fiero routing method is no longer accepted by me. I dont like the CAT or any part of the exhaust running behind the gas tank area, and under the cradle.

I have no opinion of liking or disliking "the cat". Some people live in states that require regular emissions testing, and therefore their Fiero must have a cat to pass emissions. I have built exhaust systems using the stock 3800 manifolds and the WCF headers using a cat. The WCF headers are very nice pieces, however, the y-pipe they supply is only offered in a 2.5" version. Of course, this isn't that big of a deal since you could always modify it to dump into a 3" pipe instead of 2.5", but the other problem you run into is the stock Fiero exhaust routing does not allow for larger than 2.5" tubing at the area where the motor mount is under the crank pulley. (assuming you are using a WCF or PR Fiero type motor mount).

Currently, the WCF headers offer the only "good" solution to being able to run both a catalytic converter and a full-size muffler without cutting out the Fiero's trunk. Some people won't mind losing what little cargo space the Fiero had from the factory; if you are one of these people then you can have the trunk cut out to allow room for both a cat and a muffler when using stock manifolds. However, most of my customers prefer to keep their trunk and use stock 3800 manifolds so I have designed an exhaust system that uses 3.0" mandrel bent tubing from the rear manifold to a single 3" inlet cat, then on the outlet, the exhaust system splits off into 2x 2.5" mandrel bent pipes that exit the stock Fiero exhaust tip locations using either baffled or unbaffled tips.

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: Well, the bracket assembly has a drilled water passage. Its a 5/32nds hole in most of the brackets, and 3/16ths in others. I remember the first day I saw the thing cutting open those brackets to make the low mount assembly and thought, humm, must be there for some reason. It is drilled and plugged from the backside where you cannot see the plug. Why go to all that trouble for a little hole smaller than a typical pencil. My first thought was water circulation to prevent pressure from building in the system. However, it made no sense to this because the routing of the cooling system as a whole. Picture attached here > (well, I will get one later posted) As we can see here, the flow is from the intake manifold to the alternator bracket, to the heater core, back to the alternator, and into the water pump housing on the suction side. Now, why have that little hole there if the flow is in a circle. Well, the heater core is not always circulating coolant.

I have to disagree. In a Pontiac Fiero, there is no heater coolant flow shutoff valve, like ones you would find in some 80's GM cars. Coolant circulates thru the heater core circuit at ALL TIMES the engine is running. Furthermore, the 3800 Series II engine was NOT designed with an internal coolant bypass system. The SBC V8 has an internal one that uses a small hole under one side of the water pump, which allows excess water pump head pressure to return to the pump from the block if the thermostat is closed and heater circuit flow is restricted / or engine RPM is high enough to push water pump output flow beyond heater hose capacity. The 3800 has no such "internal" circuit. This circuit was placed in the alternator/tensioner bracket. Now some people might have an opinion that this isn't needed, but I don't know what information they have gotten that brought them to this conclusion, but it would be nice to see where this information came from and what exactly it said. In college, we were required to study gasoline engine cooling systems extensively. According to all of the textbook materials I have ever seen, every engine ever produced that used a thermostat had to have some kind of water pump / coolant bypass circuit. Otherwise, excessive pressure can build when the thermostat is closed.

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: Also, I have received so many of these alternator bracket assemblies, there are versions out there that are plugged on the inlet side, and one version where it is plugged on both sides of the inlet and outlet.

Please post pictures of "factory" plugged 3800 Series 2 alternator bracket coolant passages, because I have never seen one.

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: So, if we plug the inlet and outlet of the alternator bracket assembly, the little transfer hole is all that is left for the coolant to flow from the intake outlet to the water pump return side of that housing. What does this little 5/32nds hole do? Pressure relief? No. It keeps circulation when those inlet/outlets are blocked so a cooling effect is maintained on the alternator bracket assembly. The alternator creates alot of heat. Aluminum is a great heat dissipater but, when you have 200 degree coolant circulating in the material also, it creates a better cooling effect.

The alternator bracket cools the alternator? What? How does the bracket cool a 96-98 alternator where there are only 2 very remote points on the alternator that mount to the bracket? How is that little of mounting/surface area on these alternators contribute to alternator cooling?

Loyde, based on your statement, you basically said: "GM circulated coolant thru the bracket for alternator cooling". Well if that were true, then won't all of us running low-mount alternators have alternator overheating problems? How about on engines like the LT1, LS1, 3100, 3400, etc that don't have the alternator mounted to a bracket that has coolant flowing thru it? Who did you talk to at GM that told you the SOLE reason for circulating coolant thru the alt/tensioner bracket was for alternator cooling?

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: Remember, some heater cores have valves to stop coolant flow completely, and some applications of the 3800 in cars do not use the inlet/outlet of the alternator bracket assembly.

I would like to see any 1996-up GM car with a 3800 engine that has a heater core coolant flow circuit shut-off valve, because I have worked on countless 96-up C, H, G, and W bodies and have never seen one. Loyde, please post a list of exactly which cars using this engine have such a valve on the heater core coolant cirucit.

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: 10. Thermostat housing: Here we discuss what thermostat I use and why. The Fiero thermostat housing is a nice unit. It provides easy access to the thermostat, and it allows a fill point at the engine. The 3800 thermostat is under a housing that does not allow easy access, and it does not provide a fill point. I modify the Fiero thermostat housing to provide 3 functions. Fill point of coolant to engine with ease, change thermostat or remove for diagnostic purposes, heater core support output to heater core. These 3 functions are critical to a happy cooling system on the Fiero. Air in the system creates steam, steam causes extreme hot spots in the cylinder heads and leads to blown head gaskets. You must get all the air out of the cooling system in a Fiero, and it is difficult. Heater core output to heater core is just that. It allows coolant flow in a easy way to of hooking up to the Fiero existing 5/8ths heater hose.

Some people elect to use the large Fiero t-stat housing and that is fine. I have used the stock 3800 thermostat housing on ALL of my swaps with 0 cooling system problems, 0 thermostat bending failures, and 0 problems filling and purging the cooling system of air. Which was is better? Hard to say. Both ways work fine.

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: 11. Fuel Pump: Here is yet another area I have been attacked on from others on the internet. Again, they provide only theory's from text books and no real data to support their claims.

Again, I must assume you are talking about somebody else because I have actually dyno tested many stock and aftermarket GM and GM-type replacement fuel pumps on a Fuel Pump Flow Bench. What did I find? I found that most fuel pumps, be them GM Delco or aftermarket brand that were designed for natrually asperated engines are only capable of delivering adequate fuel volume flow for the engine they were designed for. What does this mean? This means that of the pumps I tested, the ones designed for naturally asperated engines put out more than adequate fuel volume flow at 45psi, which is what most naturally asperated PFI systems operate at. Fuel systems on supercharged or turbocharged cars operate a high pressures, sometimes as high as 60 or 70psi. The problem is, most of the n/a pumps I tested on the flow bench drastically decreased in fuel volume flow output above 45psi. Only those pumps that were designed to work with supercharged and turbocharged applications were able to adequately maintain volume fuel flow at pressures higher than 45psi.

What does that mean to you? Well, I am not going to say that X pump won't work on a 3800 SC. What I am going to say is, X pump was designed to flow Y volume at Z pressure. And, according to my DYNO TEST RESULTS, most fuel pumps that were designed for naturally asperated applications, could NOT maintain Y volume at pressures higher than 45psi. Now there are exceptions, some stock pumps flow better than others. I recommend to all of my customers running stock or lightly modded 3800SC swaps to run a minimum of a 89 Turbo Trans Am 3.8L fuel pump, because it was designed for a turbocharged PFI engine. For those who have more heavily modded engines, I strongly suggest the Walbro 255lph (F20000169) fuel pump. Yes, it is loud. But it is cheap insurance against taking a chance at going lean and blowing up your engine. I guess I just came up thru the automotive world different than others. I would rather be safe than sorry.

quote Originally posted by FastFieros:Here is the email directly quoted from Greg at Kinsler Fuel Injection.... Loyde, Typical boosted engine on gasoline runs at approx. 0.6 - 0.7 BSFC, SO to produce 290 hp you would need approx. 175 - 203 lbs/hr. Guess your injectors at 38 lbs/hr @ 45 PSI would mean with 48 PSI each injector at 100% would be 39.2 lbs/hr per injector X 6 = 235 lbs/hr ---- so at 75% duty cycle you would have 176 lbs/hr to the engine / 87% duty cycle you would have 204 lbs/hr to the engine. These numbers should be well within a nice safety zone. Greg

Ok, first of all the 3800 Series II SC fuel injectors are "rated" at 36 lb/hr, not 38 lb/hr. Secondly, they only flow about 34.5 lb/hr @ 43.5 psi (I had a set flow tested by Cruizin Performance in Big Rapids, MI). What do they flow at 1.5 psi more fuel pressure? Not 38 lb/hr, that's for sure.

Furthermore, in the "performance world", you don't generally want to run your injectors more than 80% duty cycle. Also, the 3800 S2 SC fuel system does NOT peak at 48 psi, it goes higher under boost; above 50psi; depending on the boost level. I would be curious to see the flow test data sheets for the EP376 at pressures above 50psi. Loyde, can you provide those?

Footnote: For those of you who want to read up on injectors, check out this link for a great explaination: http://www.precisionturbo.net/techinfotext.php?aid=11

As Loyde said earlier in this thread (and I quote)

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: Here are my idea's and opinions about installing 3800's to Fieros.

Earlier, I provided you with the way I do my swaps and why. Some ways I do things are based on opinion of what I think looks and functions better, but in the end everything I do is based on fact, experience, and proper education and training. Why this discussion started down the road of bashing people with a "higher education" is beyond me. Some people spent a whole lot of money on special tools, I spent mine on education and training. Appearantly, some people don't think any amount of formal training and education is worth much. Too bad for them. I know it has done nothing but help me.

All I can tell you is I will continue my efforts in passing along the knowledge I have accumulated to my customers and the general pubilc. I guess some people might think that is "bragging", but I prefer the terms: helpful and informative. All I can do is tell you is HOW I do MY swaps, and WHY I do things a certain way. Despite what some people might think, I welcome competition. It does nothing but encourage me to improve upon the products and services I provide to the automotive community.

-ryan

Ryan and Loyde, if you guy keep this up I may actually get this swap figured out

Fuel Pressure - If I want to use an aftermarket fuel rail, what is the best regulator and at what pressures?

Ryan - - Are you saying the stock injectors will not support a modified 3800 SC?

Thanks

the stock injectors will support a certain level - but above that you will need bigger injectors

a dogbone is not needed if the engine is supported properly.. lil devil pulled his 12.000 run without a dogbone - and has been running his 3800sc on rubber mounts daily driver and at the track enough to have a tall stack of timeslips, soulcrusher doesn't use a dogbone either.. theres a fact not an opinion for ya

an option for people wanting to use loydes dogbone bracket setup would be to make a ball check valve coolant bypass like this and connect it between the line to the heater core, and the radiator line after the thermostat

as for the alternator - here is Lildevils engine - he is running a stage 2 intercooler on a notchback and a top mount alternator.. the decklid is only notched for the supercharger

soulcrushers engine is setup the same way but on a fastback, and he has a small notch for the alternator pulley

[This message has been edited by Kohburn (edited 01-25-2006).]

That is a slick idea for the coolant bypass.

Do you have any info on the pressure regulator. I have no clue where to start. I'm just getting into the 3800 SC.

setting the pressure to 43-45psi witht he engine off is usuaully good - it will drop some at idle due to the vacuum, then come back up at open throttle NA, then climb higher as the boost builds and pressurizes the regulator..

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Again, I must assume you are talking about somebody else because I have actually dyno tested many stock and aftermarket GM and GM-type replacement fuel pumps on a Fuel Pump Flow Bench. What did I find? I found that most fuel pumps, be them GM Delco or aftermarket brand that were designed for natrually asperated engines are only capable of delivering adequate fuel volume flow for the engine they were designed for. What does this mean? This means that of the pumps I tested, the ones designed for naturally asperated engines put out more than adequate fuel volume flow at 45psi, which is what most naturally asperated PFI systems operate at. Fuel systems on supercharged or turbocharged cars operate a high pressures, sometimes as high as 60 or 70psi. The problem is, most of the n/a pumps I tested on the flow bench drastically decreased in fuel volume flow output above 45psi. Only those pumps that were designed to work with supercharged and turbocharged applications were able to adequately maintain volume fuel flow at pressures higher than 45psi. What does that mean to you? Well, I am not going to say that X pump won't work on a 3800 SC. What I am going to say is, X pump was designed to flow Y volume at Z pressure. And, according to my DYNO TEST RESULTS, most fuel pumps that were designed for naturally asperated applications, could NOT maintain Y volume at pressures higher than 45psi. Now there are exceptions, some stock pumps flow better than others. I recommend to all of my customers running stock or lightly modded 3800SC swaps to run a minimum of a 89 Turbo Trans Am 3.8L fuel pump, because it was designed for a turbocharged PFI engine. For those who have more heavily modded engines, I strongly suggest the Walbro 255lph (F20000169) fuel pump. Yes, it is loud. But it is cheap insurance against taking a chance at going lean and blowing up your engine. I guess I just came up thru the automotive world different than others. I would rather be safe than sorry.

Your flow data is exactly that. Your flow data.

As per Kinsler Fuel Injection email conversation....

I asked Greg what value stainless steel components contributed to flow, or better performance in any way... I also asked how is flow rated... His response..

Loyde,
Regarding the 'stainless steel components' - we can't confirm nor deny, but we have never heard that before. However if is true, it isn't anything major. Those pumps are fairly inexpensive.
Regarding the flow, there is a lot of false info or misleading at best.
Typically on gasoline if you figure at a 0.5 BSFC on a fuel system with 40 PSI that pump would support a max max of 736 HP -- in an ideal world.
Most engines run higher than 0.5 BSFC (unless they are a true N/A FULL race engine), most fuel systems run higher than 40 PSI (more load on pump less output), and most electrical systems tend not to have 13.5
volts. AND you need to return some fuel so that you have some 'control'.
As you can see in the flow numbers of the pump (230 lbs/hr @ 80 PSI) the higher pressure system would only support a max max HP of 460.
All that being said (typed), a 255-lph pump could do the 600 HP -- BUT
everything would have to be JUST right. We have found that things are
NOT always just right, then the problems begin !!!

Greg

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Now Ryan loves to use the word NOT... as in this thread https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/069043.html where he plainly saids that a Corvette pump are NOT rated to flow enough..

quote You heard correctly. The OE replacement Vette pump (and all other n/a application pumps for that matter) are NOT rated to flow enough fuel volume at the higher pressures required by a turbocharged or supercharged engines. I know some people on here have got away by going cheap and using a Vette pump or some other n/a application pump; but it is a big gamble to take with a $2000 +/- engine. I have personally flow tested many of these n/a pumps and they are not capable of maintaining sufficient fuel volume flow at the higher pressures boosted engines require under full boost. I agree with the Fieromaster on this one, at least use a OE replacement pump that is supposed to support a similar powerplant to what you have. The 89 TTA pump will work fine for most stock and lightly modded 3800SC applications. Personally, I like the Walbro 255lph unit (FT20000169) because it will support over 600hp and it is built with stainless steel components. It is true that this pump is a little on the noisy side, but unless you are running stock mufflers, you probably aren't going to notice it going down the highway. BTW you can pick up the walbro unit for about $130.00 with an install kit which is a direct bolt-in for 87-88 Fieros. 86 and earlier cars will require in-tank wiring modifications.

For one thing.... A pump is a pump.. It has no clue that is is pumping gasoline as oppose to water. It has no clue it is pumping fuel to a supercharged engine, or a NA engine. It has no clue it is pumping fuel to a corvette or a Fiero.

Fuel pumps are rated, and we as comsumer's are purchasing them based on someone's data. The average consumer does not have a flow test bench with controled processes that leads to actuate data. Then there is the problem of the fuel system and all the components that make up the fuel system. In racing we purchased flowed and matched components to get something that was rated on the test bench and should be the same in the race car. NO ONE has taken the Fiero gas tank, with the new configration of the fuel lines, ZZP fuel rails vs PRJ fuels vs Stock fuel rails and flowed these items to see what the differences in ratings are. It all changes.

Consumers will go with someone that has tried, and puts forth the effort to present the facts. Facts come with data sheets, or best..... EXPERIENCE... Practical applications with testing and proven results leads to confidence. I have a little experience in actually installing 3800SC engines to the Fiero with proven results http://www.fastfieros.com/projects

Loyde

[This message has been edited by FastFieros (edited 01-25-2006).]

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: I just dont see the check valve relationship to how this system is designed in the Grand Prix with a 3800SC engine...

it allows excess pressure to bleed past a closed thermostat to prevent a bent thermostat or a leaky heater core -

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: For one thing.... A pump is a pump.. It has no clue that is is pumping gasoline as oppose to water. It has no clue it is pumping fuel to a supercharged engine, or a NA engine. It has no clue it is pumping fuel to a corvette or a Fiero.

Do a favor for me, and all of us here... Tape a fuel pressure gauge to the rear window, and tell us what reading it spikes to at WOT with boost.

I'm curious myself.

quote Originally posted by Kohburn: it allows excess pressure to bleed past a closed thermostat to prevent a bent thermostat or a leaky heater core -

Really... You have the supporting data to prove this is correct? Because all I see is an opinion and a maybe an idea.. But, lets draw this cooling system.. Sorry, I will have to hand draw it, I have no time to get autocad fired up on this computer.

What you are about to notice is that I have relief built into my design. If you took the time to draw it out, you would notice the Tstat is in the intake on the stock housing application, and on the Fiero modified Tstat housing, the heater core output is BELOW the Tstat itself.

Then if you go back to my projects page, you will notice that on all housings where I use the stock 3800 housing, I drill and TAP a 3/8 NPT to the intake BELOW the Tstat again keeping flow at all time even when the Tstat is in the closed position.

I thought also at first maybe the bypass was for pressure releif, but I have been told by a GM engineer it was not for pressure bypass. Who knows, maybe he was just telling me something because I asked if it was for cooling of the alt bracket assembly.

Loyde

OK, That makes perfect since. I was thinking the heater core outline was above the T-stat

Thanks

Fuel pressure regulators- - - any suggestions?

quote Originally posted by Kohburn: yes and how many NA pumps have a rating listed for flowing at 55-70psi like what will happen with a boosted engine? that email from greg pretty much supported Ryan's statement.. are you saying that the vette pump IS rated to flow at 60psi? I just don't see what you are disagreeing with Ryan about? The walbro however is rated at over the full pressure range

Where do you get this agree/disagree stuff ? I present facts based on data I paid for at KFI. They have been in the racing industry over 30 plus years, and I have known Greg since my racing days back to 1988. I trust his advise, and knowledge in EFI.

Where on your DATA sheet does it say NA... it is specs on a PUMP... Has nothing noted about it being for a corvette, Fiero, NA, SuperCharged. Its a pump with a rating.

IF you view my FAQ at http://www.fastfieros.com/tech/3800_FAQ.htm you will notice that on that page .... 40 and 50 PSI are the only BOLD number relating to the EP376. That pump is only good to 52 PSI safely on a 325 HP 3800SC engine. That is in a TEST enviroment classification. Who really knows what it will do in a Fiero gas tank, with 3/8 line to a ZZP fuel rail, with a SLP FPR as the control device. It all changes.

I can tell you one thing for sure. I can sure use that pump if I want to and tune an engine to it with little to no KR on the scan device on OBDII since it does provide that type of data. My scan device can range from a GM Tech 2, HP tuners, DHP Powrtuner, and several other OBDII scanning devices I have invested in.

Loyde

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: IF you view my FAQ at http://www.fastfieros.com/tech/3800_FAQ.htm you will notice that on that page .... 40 and 50 PSI are the only BOLD number relating to the EP376. That pump is only good to 52 PSI safely on a 325 HP 3800SC engine. That is in a TEST enviroment classification. Who really knows what it will do in a Fiero gas tank, with 3/8 line to a ZZP fuel rail, with a SLP FPR as the control device. It all changes. Loyde

"EP376 supports the 3800SC to about 325HP with no problems. People who are modifying there engines to more than 325HP are most likely already going to know they need a Walbro 255"

from your faq - looks like you agree - and yes pumps are rated on their flow not the systems flow (although a restriction in the system will simply cause an increased line pressure before the fuel ever reaches the injectors and will be unseen by the pressure regulator , thus the pump will flow for whatever the actual line pressure is at the pump not at the injector)

Ryan recommends using the pump from a boosted application because it is already rated for the higher pressures. but as we all know many of the gm fuel pumps interchange and are internally identical even if the case is a little different so will share the same flow ratings.. you use a vette pump that is rated and tested to be sufficient .. whats the problem?

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: Proprietary information ... My tuning is my business. At least I own a Grand Prix GTP with a modified 3800SC, and usually always have a 3800SC powered Fiero onsite to tune on and test with. I dont try to give advise to people on 3.4 DOHC because I have little interest in that engine. I dont give advise to people with turbo applications because I have little interest in that performance device. I keep my thoughts, opinions, and ideas to the 3800SC, LS1, and EcoTec engines today. Loyde

What? On a stock 3800SC it's proprietary information? Here, I'll share with you some of my "proprietary information"...

The northstar fuel rail pressure is ~40-42 PSI at idle, and raises to 45-47psi at wide open throttle. I put the E376 or whatever it was in my car because it was adequate for a stock NA engine, and it's quiet. I probably have close to 320hp, and it shows no signs of letting up.

But note the pressure I'm dealing with, less than 50psi. Boost always raises the fuel rail pressure to keep the pressure differential the "same" so the injectors flow linearly. - it makes it easier to tune. I would be very hesitant of putting a corvette pump in an application where you see more than 50psi. I don't know that the 3800SC does, which is why I asked. My guess is, stock, it probably does. Possibly by a little, possibly by a lot. Maybe I should ask on the W body board to satisfy my own curiosity now.....

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: Really... You have the supporting data to prove this is correct? Because all I see is an opinion and a maybe an idea.. But, lets draw this cooling system.. Sorry, I will have to hand draw it, I have no time to get autocad fired up on this computer. Loyde

my statement was about the check valve.. do you have supporting data that it will not releave backpressure? I have real world experience, since you seem to be so keen on that .. whats that? your real world expereince is worth something but mine means nothing? nice.

what you drew shows a standard setup same as the fiero except one thing.. the fiero uses the TB coolant line as a thermostat bypass.. the 3.4tdc uses a 1/2" line as a thermostat bypass (but the thermostat is special and closes off the bypass as the thermostat opens).. the heatercore itself as well as the line size IS the restriction.. unless you are bypassing the heatercore there is a restriction there that can (yes i've see in) damage the thermostate or the heatercore.. I've talked to several people who were running through heater cores untill they found a way to releave the pressure in the system when it was cold.. many people will never have the problem for a number of variable such as not revving it up when cold, having an above average heatercore, or having the stronger thermostat (yes i have set two fiero thermostats side by side of different brands and some use an extremely soft alloy for the handle bracket that keeps it seated)

not everyone will experience a single problem - but there are certain things that can be avoided with a few precausionary methods developed through experience.

those methods are test, not "opinions" as you seem to like to put down everyone else as having opinions and you are the encyclopedia britanica or something

[This message has been edited by Kohburn (edited 01-25-2006).]

Concerning the fuel pump issue, all I am going to say is this... I am sure you can find 100's of people running the EP376 or whatever else n/a fuel pump on their 3800 SC's. I am not going to sit here and say it won't work. What I am going to say (and what I have been saying for a long time) is ANY fuel pump designed around the specs of a n/a engine, is NOT designed around the specs for a boosted engine. Most n/a engines, like the 94 Vette LT1 V8 run max fuel pressure of 45psi max. The pump specs for this engine are designed to deliver enough fuel for a 300hp engine at 45psi. Now I will agree that most pumps are overengineered to a point that you could use them in a boosted application. The problem is are YOU WILLING to take a chance that fuel pump you purchased may NOT be capable of maintaining suffecient fuel flow at pressures higher than 45 psi?

As I said before, while most n/a fuel pumps can support a larger amount of flow at "stock" pressures, most have an inability to maintain volume of fuel flow at pressures higher than their stock design rating. Case in point...

Off the top of my head I do remember one specific flow test I ran on a EP311 fuel pump which is a OE replacement for a 92 3800 SC. It flowed 36.6 gal/hr @ 43.5 psi. However, when the fuel pressure was increased to 60psi, the flow dropped to 25.8 gal/hr. At the same time I ran this test, I tested a Walbro 307 pump. It flowed 67.3 gal/hr at 70psi!

Do you need a walbro? Maybe, maybe not. It depends on the mod level of your engine and the amount of power it is making. What I can tell you about is the simple test you can do with a fuel pressure gauge. Hook it up to your fuel rail and tape it to your back window and go for a drive. Your fuel pressure should rise with boost pressure and should NOT drop off at higher RPM levels. On a bone stock 3800 S2 SC, your WOT fuel pressure at about 10psi of boost should be about 52-58psi or so (depending on many other factors). (On my buddy's lightly modded 99 Regal GSE L67, his fuel pressure at 10psi of boost is 58 psi, according to the gauge). Point here is the fuel pressure should hold steady under boost and should NOT drop off at higher RPMs. I have seen this happen on cars with failing or inadequate fuel punps. But before you condemn the fuel pump, you need to make sure your fuel lines and filter are not restricted, and that your exisiting fuel pump wiring can supply enough current and voltage to the pump. Fieros do have an issue with this sometimes because the power supply for the fuel pump comes from the fuse box up under the steering column and passes thru the C203 connector by the ECM. I have seen STOCK Fieros where the fuel pump terminals didn't have a good connection at the C203 connector which caused the connector to melt and deform. A stock pump running at higher than stock pressures is going to draw more current than normal also. The walbro pump is certainly going to draw more current than a stock pump which is why I recommend a wiring change for fuel pump power to anyone who is considering running the walbro. (this mod is commonly referred to as the "hot wire" mod).

As far as stock injectors go, I ran a 12.36 et in the 1/4 mile with "36" lb/hr stock 3800 SC injectors. However, my Injector Pulse Widths were maxxed out at 24ms (anything above 21ms is considered "static" or exceeding the capacity of the injector) and my O2 voltage was barely adequate at 0.910v. My 3800 Series II Turbocharged engine runs best when the O2 voltage is between 0.915 and 0.955 volts at WOT, full boost. I upgraded to 42.5 lb/hr injectors to give myself a little more breathing room on those colder, dryer days when the air is more dense (IE, the engine needs more fuel to compensate). I have seen people making less power than me need larger injectors, and people running faster than me using stock injectors without any issues. It all comes down to the Brake Specific Fuel Consumption of your engine. This number is going to differ from engine to engine with different mods.

As far as adjustable fuel pressure regulators go, I don't normally use them because I can usually tune the PCM to deliver the amount of fuel the engine needs. Some people like them because they allow you to make "adjustments" to the fuel delivery, assuming the computer doesn't quickly compensate for the increased fuel flow. But you can only give your injectors so much fuel pressure, because there is a tolerance they have that you can cross at a very high pressure where they won't open. You can also use this formula to figure out how much fuel a given set of injectors will flow at different pressures...

New Flow = Old Flow X square root of (new pressure/old pressure)

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: his fuel pressure at 10psi of boost is 58 psi

thanks for the info

This thread might appear to be a bunch of fighting, But Im getting alot of good info as well guys....

[This message has been edited by 86fieroEarl (edited 01-26-2006).]

Assuming you're not running a heavily modified 3800..... why wouldn't you just use the fuel pump from the same car that the engine came from?

[This message has been edited by pollock (edited 01-26-2006).]

quote Originally posted by pollock: Assuming you're not running a heavily modified 3800..... why wouldn't you just use the fuel pump from the same car that the engine come from?

The Grand Prix pump is designed with what is called a jet port. It fills a contained cansiter the pump sets in. I guess you can block this port, but really this pump also is not the same as the design of the Fiero pump and other GM pumps like the EP376, or the Walbro series. Its nice when something just fits right back in place, and is plug and play.

NO one should try to use the Fiero V6 pump to run a 3800SC engine. I can tell you from EXPERIENCE that this does not work well. It will start the engine, and you can drive the car, but the performance is very bad, and unstable at anything above 50% throttle. Well, someone had to test it and see what it does, so I did. On more than one car also.

I am going to send the OEM Grand Prix pump to Kinsler Fuel Injection also for testing. I just have to know what the flow data is on this pump based on their test machine and their controlled enviroment. Not even the Grand Prix community has taken the time to post the flow data on this pump that I can find anywhere. Its like Greg mentions, not everyone flows devices the same way with the same reults. So, you have to stay with one person, with thier processes, and compare the data to your thoughts.

Another good comparsion debate is the horsepower ratings between DynoJet and Mustrang. They both give numbers, but they are different. Its does not really matter the number as long as you use the same process each time you go there to test what changes you might have made to get positive or negative results.

Loyde

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: The fuel pump is designed around pressure and flow. . . The EP376 will support to 325HP. The EP376 is quiet and an OEM AC Delco part.

I believe that was the point... 3800SC = 58psi, NA engine = 45psi. The EP376 will support 325hp at 45psi, but only will flow 81% at 60psi what it does at 45psi. That means it supports 263hp. (actually I don't know, I'm using your numbers)

From your site,

quote Loyde, Typical boosted engine on gasoline runs at approx. 0.6 - 0.7 BSFC, SO to produce 290 hp you would need approx. 175 - 203 lbs/hr.

The 376 puts out 188lbs/hr at 60psi.

If someone knows of an AC delco that's QUIET, that flows 350-400lb/hr at 60psi, let me know...

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 01-26-2006).]