Page 2 is mine.

You have the wrong coolant line hooked up. The hot water from the engine comes from the intake not the water pump. This is slightly wrong acording to lloyde, because it creates a limited amounts of pressure or somthing somwhere in the mix, so he makes a custom thermostat housing so it circulates propery. I would probley ask him to explain it better.

I just put mine in and plummed it. I will take a picture of the holder I used, its sorta ghetto but works good. If you dont belive me still that that is the hose that goes there, look at the way the pump is designed, rotates clockwise, and pulls water from the bottom inlet (the big one), and pushes it into the motor, and the top one (the small one) pulls water in and pushes it into the motor.

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 07-02-2006).]

The coolant hose that connects to the water pump is the return to the engine, from the radiator, and the heater outlet I am using is on the other side, which would be the high pressure side of the pump. There is no doubt that the left side of the pump is the high pressure, which is the side the hose im using is connected to. I wish I had some pictures of the front end of the engine, it would be easier to illustrate, but heres the best I can do. I suppose I could be wrong, but this seems to make more sense to me

I just replaced the waterpump on my GTP, and there is no way it would work like that if you actually looked at the way the pump is designed, trust me.

I just installed my auto side axle and suspension today, fit perfect, just dont know if I like the idea of it being the .9inch diameter shaft. Going to steal the pass side of the beretta tommorow morning. The motor is fully converted for use in a fiero now, belts on it, wiring is going on it soon enough I hope, then I have to just toss my last axle and suspension on. Then its go time!

Hmm, maybe I didnt look close enough, I replaced the WP on this engine two nights ago, and I thought it looked like I thought it was.. Crap.. I'll look into it some more.

My wiring is just awaiting the attatchment of the C203, belts need put on, vac lines put on, and this stupid heater hose thing figured out. Im right there with ya

You are technicly one step ahead, but hows the body? Have the walbro in yet? I guess I still have to do the fuel lines, going to skip the hard plastic step, as mine were cut farther up than yours, so I am just going to tie them on the rail where I can push it up over the big lip.


This is a picture of the heater core return line plumed to the rear for an 86. This is so you hook it up like the pre 87's where the return is not implemented in the main radiator hose. This is lloyd's latest documented 3800 swap, so you dont see the intake side one because he moves it to the main outlet, before the thermostat but just below it so it allways circulates.


This is a picture of lloydes last 87/88 swap, where he blocks off both ports, then runs the heater core feed off of his fancy therm housing.

I agree that having the feed there makes alot more sence, but i dont think there will be that many problems with it there anyway.


...................................^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The main pass side coolant hose goes in there on the pump, he just didnt draw it.
That is a drawing lloyde made, I rehosted it because I lost the link.

quote Fiero thermostat housing to provide 3 functions. Fill point of coolant to engine with ease, change thermostat or remove for diagnostic purposes, heater core support output to heater core. These 3 functions are critical to a happy cooling system on the Fiero. Air in the system creates steam, steam causes extreme hot spots in the cylinder heads and leads to blown head gaskets. You must get all the air out of the cooling system in a Fiero, and it is difficult. Heater core output to heater core is just that. It allows coolant flow in a easy way to of hooking up to the Fiero existing 5/8ths heater hose

Thats why lloyde uses those fancy handmade housings, i sorta like darth fieros way better due to the fact you can just buy it and clamp it on I guess. No doubt those are nice tho.

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 07-02-2006).]

Looks like you were right, the heater hose on the lower intake is the output to the heater core. The one by the waterpump actualy runs behind the WP to the low side, I thought it went right to the high pressure side right by where it is. Ive got some pics for other people to illustrate this.

Nice save, thanks, I thought I knew what I was doing, but Ive been wrong before... once... it was a tuesday...

quote Looks like you were right

How many posts it that take? like 7?

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: How many posts it that take? like 7?

You sound like my girlfriend, this is where I flap my hand like a mouth and say "wa wak wahh wah wahhh..."

I cant help it the designing engineer was smoking crack when they made this. The pump actualy sucks from the middle and shoots it out both arms on the pump housing, going god knows where, my logic was sound, the hole was on the left side, normaly the high side, lol.

Now what I came here to post, lets see what all I have left to do.

Relocate coils
Build drivers side axel
Buy 1" freeze plug
Install freeze plug in WP housing
Tap intake
Buy and install fittings for heater feed
Replace thermostat
Buy 2' 5/16th tranny cooler line
Buy and replace blower gasket (appears to be leaking coolant under the snout)
Find a 15mm nut with 13mm head for the SC tensioner mount
Figure out AC lines
Change Fuel Pump
Change Oil
Change Tranny filter
Finish wiring harness
Install Wiring harness
Figure out Evaps routing
Install Map sensor
BUILD EXAUST
Tweak Fuel Lines
Wait for pulley and cruise parts to arrive and install
Figure out intake system

God, I shouldnt do that, thats discouraging.... So how far are you? lol.

Oh, and
buy plug wires
change plugs/wires
port exaust manifolds

[This message has been edited by 86GT3.4DOHC (edited 07-05-2006).]

Why do you have to build a driver side axle? cant you just use your stock one like you said?

You might want to consider putting my custom bent little "elbow holder" in to bypass tapping the intake manifold coolant hose. Its just a small chunk of steel that will stop the stock style elbow from blowing out, and you can just clamp a hose onto that.

I still have to......
block the smaller waterpump hole
get tranny lines figured out
finish the c203 connector
Find a camero muffler that is 17 inch wide, or one that I can cut and weld.
I have my blower off right now, going to install in the car, along with the fuel lines, intake, and evap. I dont really know what these things are going to be or how long they will take to address, but I think you get the idea.

I like my stock wires, they are in good shape, I just need to get some 104 autolites. I did a fairly basic port job on my manifolds, took a long time, and most say you can reuse your manifold gaskets.

quote Find a 15mm nut with 13mm head for the SC tensioner mount

I turned down a manifold nut with a lethe.

if this engine is like other GM engine i wouldnt use a standard copper core autolite, spend the extra money and get the iridiums that came in the engine, assuming you are using a newer 3800sc, or theyll more than likly just foul out, or you just arent going to get the most outta that engine. Working at autozone i cant tell you how many people i would tell, spend the extra money and get the AC plats/iridiums that came stock, they wouldnt, and 10,000 miles later theyd be back getting the plats/iridiums like i said cause the car was running like crap.

They are sorta designed to fail past 6000 miles, but the knock beating characteristics of the autolites make them quite worthwhile. I have about 15k on mine, and they seem to be working as well as when I put them in, but I am planning on doing a change when i fix my powersteering.

I would rather use the larger diameter axel, plus I want to have ABS rings on both wheels, just having the one wouldnt do me any good.

Do you have a pic of what you did for the heater hose? Thats what I did for the other one, but there is nowhere nearby I can see to attatch it.

Ive got iriduim plugs, and while the wires look ok, im going to replace them anyway, with AC Delco if they still reach once I figure out where the coils are going to go

i will have new pictures as soon I get them uploaded here after I get out of work. Check my thread for those. I guess the worst I can do is break that axles off, so i guess I will just make the pass side one for now, then make sure I have the parts to make a new driver side when I go to the track or somthing.

Tying up the loose ends now, anyone curious about anything or want to see pics of anything?

Heres what I have left

Install harness
Weld exaust (already mocked and tacked)
Add oil and filter
Change tranny filter
Mount and wire the cruise
Tweak cabin harness wiring harness
Install axles
Install module and coils (already relocated mount)
Figure out Evaps
Figure out air filter and intake.

Id like to try and fire it tomorrow if all goes well with the exaust, depends on how the welder works.

[This message has been edited by 86GT3.4DOHC (edited 07-09-2006).]

i am in the excat same spot, maybe a bit more wiring to do than you. Going to do my pass side axle tommorow, because I changed my mind a thousand times. I am going to order my 3in in/out muffler today.

Just a bumpdate

I wanted to fire it tonight, but ran out of energy. BUT Ive got the interior lights working very close

I just have to splice into the starter solenoid wire at the firewall (eliminated the C500)
find the other backup light wire....(thinks).... well son-of-a... DUH!! the reason I cant find the second backup light wire is because it runs straight from the C500 to the lights, not back up front... the things you dont think of.... WELL
So I have to cut the backup light wire at the firewall, and splice each side to one side of the tranny switch wires I have there, then jumper the 2 pins at the C500

Then I just need to finish making the front 3 plug wires. I used 8.8mm wires and the boots I had to use were for 7mm, so its a tight squeeze, Ive jammed them mostly through, but they are stuck with 1/2" to go, then install them

From there it should be ready to fire up.

is the cradle bolted and all the lines hooked up and everything? I just need to weld my tensoner bracket and solder my wiring, I have it wire nutted together right now .

Well I win!

And I loose....

It generated fire does that count?

I got it all wired up and turned the key, the oil light was off the right (open circut) well I pulled the FP fuse (also ECM feed) to make sure it didnt start and cranked it a bit. To my suprise it started poping and spiting. Not sure how as the injectors should not have been firing. Well the oil pressure guage didnt start working so I got out to check the wiring and noticed fuel vapor rising from the exaust. Somehow fuel is getting into the engine. Figured out I hooked the oil pressure sender to the wrong wire (Ive got 1 extra there for future use) so I changed it over and sure enough the oil guage dropped to 0 and the oil light came on.

So I cranked the engine with the ECM off to prime the pump. It continued poping and even backfired a couple of times. Now im not sure if anything happened at the end of the cranking, but I put in the FP fuse and primed the pump several times. Now when I went to crank it again the engine is locked solid. I turn the key, the solenoid fires and the gear clicks then I hear a humming from the starter and all the lights dim, obviously the starter is laboring but the engine is not moving.

So its seized.. Im not sure if it siezed and thats why I stopped cranking right before I put in the fuel pump fuse, if it is I did not notice, I mean I surely didnt hear the engine lock up and the lights dim and hold the key thinking :whats this: but it might have happened as I was stopping.

My theory (my VERY optimistic theory) is that one or more of the fuel injectors is stuck open or wired on, and pouring fuel into the cyls. This would explain how the engine was getting gas without the ECM being on, and my guess is when I repeatedly primed the pump it simply poured gas into the cyl on the intake stroke, then that hydrolocked when I tried to crank again.

God I wish I had videotaped this like I did with my DOHC, then I could look over the tape and see what happened.

Whatcha guys think? I'll try pulling the plugs tomorrow, then if that doesnt work I'll take off the belts, then if that doesnt work I'll spin the engine backwards by hand and see what it feels like.

Supporting my theory is the backfiring, if the intake tract was full of fuel, when the DIS system fired (which it will do without ECM input) it would jump the compression stroke, and then the opposite cyl to go back to the coil, which would be on the exaust stroke, which could ignite the uncompressed fuel and leave a small flame to ignite the intake tract as that valve opened.... yea wishful thinking

yea well, my wiring is done now, and it wont have injectors stuck open. Going to put it on the motor along with everything else tommorow if it isnt as crappy out as it was today.

I have heard one easy way to get rid of gas involves a match somehow.

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 07-13-2006).]

Well got that straightened out, pins 39 and 40 on the blue connector were bent over touching eachother and pushed back into the ECM, apparently the connector went in crooked and tweaked them. I pulled the plug and drained the gas out of it, then fixed the wiring.

Now it wont start, if I crank with the throttle closed it pops out the throttlebody, if I floor it it pops out the exaust, a rare kick but nothing near starting. I checked spark good and constant, it stinks of fuel, so its getting gas, I tried pulling the FP fuse and cranking it to clear the cyl, but even then still nothing better. I also tried giving it a little starting fluid but to no avail. I dont have an OBD2 scanner, so I dont know what the ECM is seeing, but unplugging the MAF didnt change anything.

I let it sit for an hour and tried again, with no change.

Not really sure whats up here, its firing the injectors, so im assuming my passkey bypass is working, and usualy it will start the engine before killing it even if it wasnt. Ideas?

what was the function of the wire it was shorting to? was it an output? input?

flooring the pedal in gm ecm's says flood clear and should shut off all the injectors.

I would disconnect the fuel pump, prop the tb wide open and have someone shoot some starting fluid in while cranking. if you can;t get it to run a few seconds like that, then go check your firing order. sounds suspiciously like its 180 out.
since this is a dis system, you really should not have timing issues unless something is wired wrong.

Actualy the 2 pins shorted were labeled as no use, but they were right across from injector 1 control and low refrence (79&80)

I tried clear flood, but I wanted to make sure they cyls were bone dry so I cranked it without the FP for a bit too. I tried alternating clear flood and normal cranking to change the mix.

It seems to be getting plenty if not too much fuel, theres black smoke coming out the exaust at times when its trying to fire. I'll try the starting fluid when I get another hand to help.

I dont think you can set a DIS system 180 out, im pretty sure as long as you get the right coils on the right pair of plugs, it will be fine, the spark jumps both plugs with every fire, just one is on the exaust stroke so it doesnt have any resistance or do anything. The plugs are brand new iridiums, I'll try diffrent wires, I reused a low mile set of 8.8mm ferro wires I had on my TDC before I made some changes. Could be a problem in them.

well, I was saying it acts 180 out, not that it was. anyway you could have the wires to the coilsets mixed up? not just the plug wires, I mean the control stuff. I may be off base here, just trying to do some basic PD, maybe make a light bulb pop on for ya...

seeing as everything has changed, sorta, you have to try to isolate areas and verify each as best you can. seeing as you are flooding out basically, plenty of gas, I have to think an ignition/timing issue is where you need to look first.

Thats an idea, maybe I stuck the coils on in the wrong order, does anyone have the right order so I can confirm?

do you have a picture of your exhaust? I was going to start mine today, but I didnt feel like designing the exhaust later. My muffler is a flowmaster style, but its a different baffle design that looks cool (and not knock off style). My axles look perfect, due to the fact the beretta one sticks out sorta weird looking. My tensioner bracket is owning me still, but I passed that problem off to somone else. Going to tie up every loose end tommorow, and I hope this exhaust will get done soon, I wouldnt mind some ideas on downpipes.

I have to have this thing road ready by friday.

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 07-14-2006).]

Good for you!
I've seen ya help alot of people out, and I know from past experience that in a complex project sometime simple things get overlooked, so it was more likely that than anything else.
My firends call it stupid idea time..... rattle off the dumb things we could never have done til we find the one we did.
besides, if someday I once again have money and time, I think the 3800sc is the one I'll do, and I want a good base of people to ask questions of.....

Well it had its first drive tonight.... at least it didnt blow up

The tach doesnt work, which is odd being as simple of a wiring fix it was,

The SES light is on from start,

It runs okay, but when I get on it it misses and dogs, it doesnt idle well, it did at first but as I drove it it would die if you didnt keep a little gas on it. Other than that it just strikes me as weak, doesnt feel any stronger when you are just tootering around, you wouldnt know it wasnt a 2.8L if you didnt look. Thats probably just due to whatever problem im having.

It feels okay with a little load or throttle, not fast but it doesnt miss, but after you cross a certain point the engine dogs, I can hear the SC whine up a little but it studders and drops most all power. One time I just got on it a little and it really kicked up, but when I gave it more throttle it dropped off again...

Im thinking maybe a loose plug wire, the plug connectors were a little iffy. Not sure what the ses light is though

I think you need to scan somthing horrible.

Its stock right? It could run weird like that if your MAF sensor or TPS sensor is not working correctly. I think you really just need to scan and see what you forgot to wire.
my friend is guessing its your alternator.

I am making my exhaust at 7am, then making another run to AZ to get another belt, then its running, basicly. My goal is to start it wednessday, maybe tuesday if I get way lucky on somthing.

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I really really need to know what you did for the pass side coolant hose, every one I find is too small to go onto the 3800.

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[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 07-16-2006).]

I took a picture of the label but it was whited out by the flash, its XLxxx15. I can try to check tomorrow if you want. Its 1.5" on both sides, I just clamed it a little harder on the body side. Check page one here for a picture of it.

Yea im going to run it in town for a scan once I get my hands on a OBD2 plug to wire into it.

As far as the alternator, I do have a wire in the cabin I labeled as "alternator" I think its orange or something, I have no idea what to hook it to. Im pretty sure its one of the two from the alternator itself The charge indicator is not on, and as far as I can tell the alternator is charging....

What voltages are you looking at? i would hope is around 14 volts, but idk how it could actually cause huge performance problems unless the pcm is crying for power and droping sensor voltages. I think the scan will help a ton, I was going to buy an elmscan (laptop based full engine scanner) from a friend, but if you would want it, he is selling it for $45 shipped.

The hose that I got is just way to small to fit over, I guess I will just take it back and get a bigger one.

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Check out my 3800 swap thread and lend your advice!

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/072877.html

Sounds like something is miswired bad, If you get ahold of a obd 2 scanner tell me what codes your getting. A scanner will help you find any miswires you have.


Sounds like a miswire in the maf sensor or TPS sensor Or the ignition control going to your modual.

[This message has been edited by 86fieroEarl (edited 07-17-2006).]

po443
po449
p0452
p0480
p0481
p0135
p0452

Looks like evaps, cooling fan circuts and an 02 sensor heater response slow. Nothing that should cause drivability problems

I didnt mean that sorta scan

But it does tell you that your engine sensors are at least operational. It may just seem slow because you are used to driving the TDC fiero, but my GTP doesnt have any problems breaking the tires loose under 15mph, so I would only imagine it would feel quite fast out of the hole at least.

You really need to get a real obd2 scanner that reads stuff like LTFT's and spark advance. Did you ever get the computer "programed" before? If you got anything other than a completly stock program in there, then it will run sorta rough because the timing is usually retarded some in the tables/tuned rich/bla bla bla. What did you gap your plugs / what plugs are you running?

Well once I get it running to where im not afraid to drive it into town I have access to some serious scanning equipment, just need to get it running not like crap.

Im running ACD irridiums with whatever gap they come with that it tells you not to change.

I havent ever heard of those plugs being used on a L67 before. I know that plugs can really really affect performance and the regular autolites are the only way to go if you gap them slightly smaller than .550. They dont really last more than 10k miles or so, but they really do help save knock and fight high boost spark blowout.

does it feel faster than the NA TDC? The Turbo TDC?

Stock, most 3800 SC's come with AC Delco 41-101 Iridium plugs gapped at 0.060" (made by NGK). They are ok for a stock engine, but are a pretty hot heat range for a modded one. You can run colder autolite coppers like horizon stated, but he is correct in that they don't last very long in these engines. I run Denso Iridium's in my turbo 3800 but they do cost $12.99 per plug!

Also, I would NOT run regular unleaded (87 octane) fuel in this engine unless you aren't ever going to give it enough throttle to get into the boost. If you do try to give it boost, it WILL DETONATE which will cause the computer to pull a lot of timing out -- IE: the engine will not have full power; far from it. Furthermore, if detonation is occuring, you can cause damage to the pistons in a very short amount of time.

My advice would be to either drain the tank or run as much of the old gas out as possible -- while staying out of the boost. Then fill up with 93 or 94 octane (if you can get that in your area). 91 octane would still be a heck of a lot better than 87 if that is all you have available.

-ryan

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power corrupts. absolute power corrupts absolutely.

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