I just recently bought my first Fiero, an 86 notchback 4 speed with a v6. It has quite a few miles on it and should be streetable once I get a throwout bearing in it. Knowing I need to replace the engine in the not so distant future, I was wondering what my best bet would be with the least amount of cutting and fabricating (if any) and get in the area of around 300 HP. This way I would have the time to get everything I need together while still being able to drive the car and get the feel for it.

I have no idea how well it would run but I was looking at around 0 - 60 in the area of 6 sec. Is this unreasonable?

I was thinking of maybe a carbed 327 or maybe a 5.7 LT1 ( I have the smaller LT1 in my Caprice and it has been a really good engine) Dependability is a must. Thanks

Steve

There are several options for your 300HP benchmark. Here are some of the more popular options:

• Cadillac 4.9: The stock 4.9 is something like 200HP / 275ft-lb, but can be modded for 300HP. Since it uses an aluminum engine block, it's relatively light weight (similar to the 2.8 V6). Plus the bolt pattern matches the Fiero transmission.
  
  
• Small Block Chevy: This is a no-brainer. The SBC, in whatever form (327, 350, LT1, LS1, etc) can be easily built for 300HP, reliable and streetable. But it's heavy and requires a couple grand for the install kit.
  
  
• 3800SC: With the right compressor pulley, it can put out 300HP or more. This is also a pretty reliable engine, but weighs roughly as much as a SBC. This one will also bolt up to the Fiero tranny.

Best of luck!

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 10-19-2006).]

Northstar, all alumunum, 300hp 300lb/ft torque stock, DOHC 32V V8, really smooth running, and bolts up to the stock Fiero tranny, with a slight notching for the starter.

I'm going to be using the Ser. III 3800sc. Also the easier install from what I have read.

I'll second the Northstar. 300 horses right out of the box with factory reliability. You can't lose. Wiring and fabricating a new front cradle crossmember are the highlights of the swap, but people seem to to be innovating new stuff to make it easier everyday.

quote Originally posted by JumpStart: I have no idea how well it would run but I was looking at around 0 - 60 in the area of 6 sec. Is this unreasonable?

If you want 300 HP, good for you, but you don't need it to run 0-60 in 6 seconds. A bone stock 3.4 DOHC will do that with a good driver. Heck stock they run it in 7.2-7.5 depending on driver and tranny. You could probably pull close to 6.5 with just 4:10 gears.

Having said all that fun info, 300 HP will put you into the 12's in the 1/4 mile, easy. and should be good for high 4 low 5 0-60's times. This will really depend on driving ability though as the fieros short gears could have you in third before you hit 60.

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96 Saturn SL2 Turbo (evil SL2)

My cardomain site: cardomain.com/memberpage/702872
T3 60 trim + 4 PSI + crappy tires = 14.47 @ 99 MPH and 31 MPG

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: -- Small Block Chevy: This is a no-brainer. The SBC, in whatever form (327, 350, LT1, LS1, etc) can be easily built for 300HP, reliable and streetable. But it's heavy and requires a couple grand for the install kit.

Then I would be better off to use the money for an engine that bolts up to the tranny instead of a install kit for a sbc ( plus the engine itself)

quote Originally posted by GonsaiPK: I'll second the Northstar. 300 horses right out of the box with factory reliability. You can't lose. Wiring and fabricating a new front cradle crossmember are the highlights of the swap, but people seem to to be innovating new stuff to make it easier everyday.

What kind of wiring needs to be done and what fabricating needs to be done to the cradle?

quote Originally posted by cooguyfish: Having said all that fun info, 300 HP will put you into the 12's in the 1/4 mile, easy. and should be good for high 4 low 5 0-60's times. This will really depend on driving ability though as the fieros short gears could have you in third before you hit 60.

Ummmmm... Thats plenty for me


Thanks everyone

EDIT: What kind of gas milage do the N*s get and what cars use the better choice ones?

[This message has been edited by JumpStart (edited 10-19-2006).]

This thread has remained surprisingly civil. I'm going to remove my sarcastic comments.

I vote 3800 just because I love them, and they allow you to use the 4t65e-hd trans that will easily handle your 300 hp. Problem is you need to invest a small amount in the motor to get 300.

As previously stated, the biggest power increase would be from a SBC; as the mods are pretty much unlimited. You can find out all you need to know for that swap at http://www.v8archie.com/.

If you're looking for less expensive solutions, you can't go wrong with a Northstar, 3800SC or the 3.4 DOHC.

The 3.4 DOHC has the least amount of HP of the three with about 210HP, but more than makes up for it with a high RPM powerband. (Perfect for a stick shift)! The engine quite literally bolts right into the engine compartment, and needs very little fabrication to complete the swap. There are members on here that can help you with the wiring, or could do the wiring for you; and can also reprogram the PCM for you. Here's a thread that covers that swap.

The 3800SC has more power at it's disposal with 240HP/280TQ, and can hit 300HP with a few mods. This engine is only slightly more difficult to install than the 3.4 DOHC, and once again there are members here that can help you with the wiring/PCM reprogramming. Here's a thread that covers the 3800SC install.

The Northstar has the power you're looking for right out of the box with 300HP/300TQ (vin 9 only), but is the most difficult of the three to install. The front crossbeam on the cradle must be moved forward to make room for the drivetrain. The other major hurdle with the Northstar in the past, was the more complicated wiring; but I think there are a few options avalible for wiring/engine management for the Northstar to work properly in the Fiero. I'm not quite sure of everything you'll need to get the Northstar installed and running, but here's a thread that may help steer you in the right direction.

Whichever swap you choose, have fun and don't be shy to ask for help.

This question cant really be answred without a little more on what you are looking to get out of the car. Do you want a car that is a 1/4 car, a car that is just fast, a car that has that V-8 rumble, what exaclty do you want the car to do. Answer these questions and then you will get a better answer in what motor would be good for you to swap. I myself have 2 3800SC 88s, one is an auto that is 300+HP(pending another dyno run) and the other is a 5 speed 3800SC that only has a few MODs. I did the auto swap at first so I wouldnt have to worry about the trans but soon missed going thru the gears. Si I did another swap into my 88GT on a 5 speed that I could use as a daily driver. For the reliablty, the aftermarket and the ease of install, I say the 3800SC is the way to go. The power is alomost limitless and the go fast parts are pretty cheap to get you where you wanna go.

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: This question cant really be answred without a little more on what you are looking to get out of the car. Do you want a car that is a 1/4 car, a car that is just fast, a car that has that V-8 rumble, what exaclty do you want the car to do. Answer these questions and then you will get a better answer in what motor would be good for you to swap.

Its pretty much going to be a daily driver and a good chance I would be driving on some longer trips in the future thus why it needs to be really dependable. 300 hp is just a guess as alot of the newer cars now seem to be reaching around that mark and I just like it to keep up with most of the other newer cars. I dont drag race on the street or drive cars hard but if I do need it to move I like it to Move.

If the car will run and is safe at 100 then is great at 80 which is about as fast as I would be driving it anyway unless I did take it to a dragstrip just to see what it can do.

Thanks , Steve

[This message has been edited by JumpStart (edited 10-20-2006).]

Based on your comments about driving requirements I'd say 3.4 dohc or 3800 sc then. I did the 3.4 dohc onto a 5 speed isuzu and it's great on the road. It will easily keep up with freeway traffic doing 80. Want to go faster, just press the go pedal, no down shifting, no messing, it just goes. Great fun at the stop light grand prix too.
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of stock modern cars that will give it a run for it's money, mainly because I think 1st gear is a little too low and the spread from 1st to 2nd a little too wide on the box I have for the engines characteristics but otherwise it's great. Milage is around 22/23 mpg but that's with a very heavy right foot (too much fun not too!!).
It's a very tall engine and getting to the front plugs is a pain but otherwise it fits the engine bay quite nicely.

I have no doubt the 3800 sc swap is similar although from what I have read here, it is better suited to an automatic tranny than a manual.

If you intend to do further tuning in the future the dohc is somewhat limited though as there's virtually no after market equipment for the thing. A few people have put turbos on them I think but I don't know what it takes to do that (yet), reprogramming the ecm chip would be my biggest concern since getting it wrong could toast your motor, the 3800 sc is already setup for boost so it's probably easier to mod that way.

Just my opinion chaps

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Dave E

www.ltlfrari.com

My simple advise is to hit a Fiero show or event and drive a conversion, see what you like, ask the builders whats involved, estimated investement, the pros & cons. Re-search the heck out of the one your going to install before hand, put toghter a build/project sheet, and see how it stacks up. When its all said and done--your the owner/driver of the creation, make it something that suits what you like. I think one of the things that was overlooked in your above statement was --that you wanted 300hp to keep up with todays cars----our cars weigh 1/2 of what most cars on the road do, so you would be suprised at what you can keep up with --or in most cases --leave behind you. Again --go drive a few, get a feel for whats what, hope this helps some...

As mentioned above, the Northstar is 300hp and The 3800SC is 240-260 (depends on version) and can easily get over 300hp with mods.
I have a ZZ4 350 SBC with a 4-bbl carb in a 1986 SE with a 4spd.
Here are the performance specs:
0-60 = 4.0 seconds
1/4 mile = 12.34 @ 111 mph
MPG = 19 city / 24 highway
Engine HP = 355hp (GM rating)
Chassis Dyno = 309 hp to the wheels.

All the above swaps are very reliable provided you start with a good condition, rebuilt or new engine.

Engine swaps are owners preference. I would recommend you locate local members with swaps you are interested in and take a ride. Although all the engines listed above can put out 300hp, Each engine swap also acts differently in terms of feel and driveability.

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Happiness isn't around the corner...
Happiness IS the corner.
ZZ4 Powered !!

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 10-20-2006).]

for reliability and ease of the swap, i guess ill suggest a 3800 series II supercharged motor, at 240HP and 280 ft/lbs there is alot of aftermarket for it and i bet that less than $1000 worth of mods will get you well over the 300HP mark, and well above 300ft/lbs probably into the 12's in the 1/4 mile still being just as reliable as stock, and probably netting 25-30 MPG on the highway.

ive got a naturally aspirated 3800 in my 84 fiero with the same 4 speed you have, and i get 26MPG highway, 205HP and 230ft/lbs the swap was not very difficult, and chips can easily be tuned for it. the supercharged motors get roughly the same gas mileage as the non-supercharged motors on the highway, in town though it depends on how heavy your foot is.

after riding in 180HP quad 4 fiero's some built 2.8L's some mildly built 3.4L pushrod motors, ive ridden in two 3.4L DOHC car's and a 4.9L v8, as well as a SBC with the stock 260-270HP motor, i have to say for ease of the swap, reliability and gas mileage ill be doing the 3800 series II supercharged.

im not knocking the other motors, *IF* you want great gas mileage a 180HP quad4 is the way to go at nearly 40MPG with a getrag transmission, *IF* you want a v8 rumble you simply have to get a v8 4.9L or SBC will work great, however a northstar just doesnt exactly have the same sound being that its a DOHC v8.

*IF* you want race car rev's a 3.4L DOHC is probably the way to go, im not sure whats out there for a northstar.

i currently own a 3.4L pushrod fiero, a 3800 series II fiero and im working on a high output quad4 right now, id like to change my 3800 car over to a supercharged 3800 in the future and id also like to do a northstar with 5 speed getrag at some point.

ALL these swaps will net you fair mileage if they are done right and DONT use a carb, most carbed engines dont get the efficiency that fuel injection does, but most carb's make the swap easier if the engine is available with a carb.

with a 4 speed you'll probably get 25-30MPG highway in a 3.4L DOHC car 3800 s/c or northstar as well as the 4.9L, the SBC will probably be slightly lower.

matthew

matthew

[This message has been edited by m0sh_man (edited 10-20-2006).]

The V8 sound really doesnt make that much difference. Its nice but I do like it quieter in the car now days ( remembering the days I had to turn up the raido just to hear it ) Just looking for a good solid,dependable and respectable ride. Thanks again


Steve

quote Originally posted by JumpStart: 300 hp is just a guess as alot of the newer cars now seem to be reaching around that mark and I just like it to keep up with most of the other newer cars. I dont drag race on the street or drive cars hard but if I do need it to move I like it to Move.

It sounds like you need to do more research. 300 hp means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. A 96 hp duke can keep up with the newer cars as well, it just takes a bit longer to get there. And hp has more to do with top speed than it does acceleration so be careful what you ask for.

Almost any swap with a newer motor is going to be an improvement over the stock engines that are pushing 20 years old. The best thing is to hang out at some events and bum a rid in a lot of cars, and even maybe drive them and see what you like.

quote Originally posted by JumpStart: Its pretty much going to be a daily driver and a good chance I would be driving on some longer trips in the future thus why it needs to be really dependable. 300 hp is just a guess as alot of the newer cars now seem to be reaching around that mark and I just like it to keep up with most of the other newer cars. I dont drag race on the street or drive cars hard but if I do need it to move I like it to Move. If the car will run and is safe at 100 then is great at 80 which is about as fast as I would be driving it anyway unless I did take it to a dragstrip just to see what it can do. Thanks , Steve

300hp is a lot. You're talking 12 second times, which means you'll be faster than 90% of what's on the road.

I've got no problems recommending the Northstar or 3.4DOHC engine. Both work well in a fiero, and their high end works well in a light car. I think in terms of exhaust sound, the 3.4 DOHC wins hands down over anything else...

The DOHC V8 is actually lighter however... So if you want that V8 sound, all aluminum is the way to go. I wouldn't go for an SBC just because it requires an adapter kit. The money you save there can easily buy you one of these engines. I only paid $800 for mine. (300hp N* w/6x,xxx mi)

The 3.4 is 200/215hp, the 4.6 is 275/300. Both reliable, both get decent mileage. Highway is about 25 on both. City I think is about 16 on both... if you can keep your foot calm.

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Ryan - Northstar GT - 256RWHP / 258TQ

Owner of the first paddle-shifted, Northstar powered fiero.

If I were looking for a N*...... In just what make and model year car would I be looking at? Also Deabionni said something about Vin 9 only. What does that mean?

quote Originally posted by JumpStart: If I were looking for a N*...... In just what make and model year car would I be looking at? Also Deabionni said something about Vin 9 only. What does that mean?

Vin 9 means that it's the performance version. Up until very recently, there were two northstar motors, the Vin 9 300HP/300ft lb, 6700 RPM redline, and the other 275 HP/300ft lb, 6200 RPM redline. The vin 9 is a performance motor and the other one was a little more low end power oriented. Either would be swell in a fiero.

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96 Saturn SL2 Turbo (evil SL2)

My cardomain site: cardomain.com/memberpage/702872
T3 60 trim + 4 PSI + crappy tires = 14.47 @ 99 MPH and 31 MPG

quote Originally posted by JumpStart: If I were looking for a N*...... In just what make and model year car would I be looking at? Also Deabionni said something about Vin 9 only. What does that mean?

Yep, the vin 9 is the 300hp version. Check the 8th digit of the VIN of the car, and it's either a Y or 9. The Y is a 275hp version.

I would look for 96-99 cars (Sevilles, Devilles, Eldorados, etc). They have the most options whether you choose to use my ECM or not.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Yep, the vin 9 is the 300hp version. Check the 8th digit of the VIN of the car, and it's either a Y or 9. The Y is a 275hp version. I would look for 96-99 cars (Sevilles, Devilles, Eldorados, etc). They have the most options whether you choose to use my ECM or not.

Ok....lets say I did go with a 96 - 99 N*. Just what all would I need from the car other than the engine? I see you also mentined about your ECM. Do tell.

The only other choice I see that I might make would be the 3800sc series 2.

Thanks again. You are all being very helpful.
Steve

quote Originally posted by JumpStart: Ok....lets say I did go with a 96 - 99 N*. Just what all would I need from the car other than the engine? I see you also mentined about your ECM. Do tell.

Deabionni already posted the link: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/070626.html

It is a plug and play system for 96-99 Vin 9 (300hp) N*'s with manual transmissions, or automatic transmissions with an aftermarket tranny controller. It allows you to tune it like any other aftermarket ECM, which means for $700, you can buy cams and springs from CHRF and make 375+hp and rev to 7500 rpm.

With my system you don't need anything other than the engine. The harness is built from new connectors and wire, so you don't need to worry about old worn/corroded connectors giving you problems.

On a stock engine (with just a k&n filter and bored throttle body), I put down 256RWHP, through the 4t80e auto, which is ~22-28% loss... which is 330+hp at the crank.

I'm bios, the N* to me is the engine of choice, 300hp out of the box and if you get greedy you can get 288 degrees cams, they are about $800 with springs and retainers from CHRFab.com and since you have to make your own exaust for any engine swap you can make it very flow free, these mods alone will make you another 80 Hp, you'll also have a 7500rpm killer machine. If you get even more greedy you can build the engine forged all through (rods, pistons) 11.5 compression pistons and MLS gaskets for good to about 420hp NA, and now you can spray the Sh!t out of it 100, 150, 200... Nitro all day long for some extra juice and you'll have one NICE machine that not many cars can match out there, and best part you car hold your gears to 8250rpms and stay there long enough to make your pants wet. WIth about 550+ hp behind your back.

Just keep in mind your brakes and suspenssion and clutch have to match your engine so more money on the engine the more money on everything else...

Take care
JG

Hmm. IMO I'd get a engine that "starts" off at 300 (or better) vs. a modified engine swap that is built-up to or above 300HP for reliability issues. Remember, you're going to loose 20%+ using the auto and a few using a manual so getting a stock engine at 340-360HP+ would result in a 300hp range. A stock LS1 should be the choice if money isn't an option.

I owning three N* in various versions (two of which are 300HP). Their reliable but 300HP isn't the true numbers at the wheel and the N*/tranny are heavy. I got mine for reliablity, gas mileage, sound, looks, it's a V8, and because of CA issues.

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"Anyone can make a copy of something, it may look good but it ever is the real car. Make something from your imagination, something unique, something nobody has, anything is possible and, ideas can be a reality."

quote Originally posted by madcurl: Hmm. IMO I'd get a engine that "starts" off at 300 (or better) vs. a modified engine swap that is built-up to or above 300HP for reliability issues. Remember, you're going to loose 20%+ using the auto and a few using a manual so getting a stock engine at 340-360HP+ would result in a 300hp range. A stock LS1 should be the choice if money isn't an option. I owning three N* in various versions (two of which are 300HP). Their reliable but 300HP isn't the true numbers at the wheel and the N*/tranny are heavy. I got mine for reliablity, gas mileage, sound, looks, it's a V8, and because of CA issues.

also remeber the output for any motor is usualy always at the flywheel and not the wheels, so a 3000gt with 300hp still makes less at the wheels.

I didnt mean I was looking for 300 hp at the wheels. I dont guess the auto makers have changed where they get their hp rating from....still at the crank im guessing. If with the stock N* it would be 0-60 in 6 sec or under and 1/4 mile in the 12s (these numbers being mentioned earlier ) Thats plenty for right now and it seems that it can also be modified later for more power.

Not to sure about nitro though. always heard it was bad for the engine and in an all alluminum engine, that could be worse.

Steve

quote Originally posted by JumpStart: Not to sure about nitro though. always heard it was bad for the engine and in an all alluminum engine, that could be worse. Steve

I'm glad to know that N* is making you think, but don't worry a right built engine will last you..also keep in mind that forged internals are the way to go if NT was to be used in your plans. BTW the proper ring gap is almost the most importand part of building a NT engine.

Ok...for the N*, I would be looking for a 96-99 caddie engine.

Just what did the 3800sc series II come in (model and year) and the best one for the 3800 swap?

These seem to be the two choices I would decide from.

All the cars that had the 3800 sc 2 engine inside


Years Model make
1997 to 2003 pontiac Grandprix-GTP
1997 to 2003 Buick park ave ultra
1997 to 2003 Buick Regal
1996 to 2003 Pontiac bonniville


There are other cars also, But these models I remember seeing 3800 sc 2 engines inside.

Cool.....Thanks Earl. Now to just make a discision.

Earl youre still around! Where have you been man! You going to make it to the Fall Haul this year?

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