Originally posted by TEW: Yes, and thank you very much. I must say the Northstar looks really good. So, the biggest obstacle with the Northstar is getting a custom wiring harness to work with the Ferrari?
Yes. Getting custom wiring that will work and be cosmetically worthy of a Ferrari will be the trick.
With the Northstar, you could get the cam covers powder coated red and then tell people "Of course that's what a Ferrari engine looks like".
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09:56 AM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
.....some one put a.... 2.8...in the back of a real Ferrari...... ....
.... :WTF:
Put the original engine back in, it will impress you, and like someone else said: add significant value back to the car.
Why would you put a Grand Prix motor in a 308? It doesn't make sense.
May not make sense, but does make dollars. Why would you spend $40K for an engine and trans to put the car original when you can buy a very nice original 308 off a lot for $25-30K ? Add that cost to prob around $20K that he paid for the car. No 308 is worth $70K unless it was Enzos own personal car ....maybe. Ive come close to buying a used one myself several times when the dealers I work with knew of one. One was $17K and another was $20 and all the really needed was a little body and paint work. The cheapest he could hope to come out with would buy one of those cheap ones for parts to fix his and the mechanical condition may or may not be worth a crap in the end. Routine maintanence on a 308 about every 10,000 miles is generally about $4,000.
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07:01 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
With all this talk about wiring harnesses, I 'd like to teach myself more on the subject. I'm probably a little better with wiring than I am with mechanicals. The Ferrari wiring leaves a bit to be desired, or so I'm told. I wouldn't mind going through the car's wiring and updating/improving it where I can. There's a guy on Ferrarichat.com that offers updated fuse blocks and everybody raves about. Allows you to get rid of those european style fuses and replace them with glass fuses. The relays in the car are probably really old as well. Any suggestions on where I can go to learn more about automobile wiring in general?
I find original factory shop manuals are invaluable resource as far as wiring for a particular car. My 84 Fiero shop manual has wiring diagrams for every wire in the car, and shows how they are routed. It shows how individual sensors are wired, how they work, etc. I also have a shop manual for a De Lorean that shows the same. After reading the Fiero shop manual, I saw the De Lorean wiring was very different, and a lot simpiler. It was also quite odd compard to American cars I've worked on, and the Bosch K-Jetronic fuel injection system was very different than anything I've worked with.
probably weighs slightly more than your current engine and the sky is the limit on horsepower, you need to talk to archie about the ls1 swap kit. then your wiring problem is solved. TADA!!!!!!!! ------------------ 1985 GT Fastback Low Original Miles at 41,506!!! 01 Cavalier Z24 16" wheels KYB shocks KYB struts with coilovers-coming soon
[This message has been edited by 1fastcaddy (edited 11-25-2006).]
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10:01 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
Your position is that the Chevy is the bang for the buck winner, but it isn't... at least not in a Fiero because you have the cost of the kit and the difficulties associated with the Fiero chassis to consider.
My choice of words reflects the attitude of those devotees of the small block Chevy who can't stop for a few seconds to THINK about anything else to do with a car besides put a Chevy in it. Those are also frequently the guys who are afraid of fuel injection and think that all wiring is a nightmare.
You say the word "kit" like it's a negative thing. Many of the items in a "Kit" are items that a builder of a NStar swap will have to buy or fabricate to install. Things like Performance Clutch, Stick shift Flywheel, motor mounts, a Torque strut, custom exhaust system, 4 core radiator, cooling sysem plumbing & many more items that are part of the "Kit" are also items that are going to need to be addressed when you're building a NStar swap without a kit. So I'd submit that rather than dis the fact that there is a "kit" for the SBC, I'd say that some one should put the time & money into designing as good of a kit for the NStar as I've designed for the SBC.
Another thing you fail to mention is all the modifications you have to make to the engine cradle & the fabricating it takes to do that without a kit. You talk about "difficulties associated with the Fiero chassis" in relationship to the SBC swap. I have a NStar swap in my shop right now built by Design One & there are at least 6 major modifications to the stock Fiero engine cradle, none of which are required with a normal SBC swap. I can show you pictures if you'd like.
Let's take a few minutes "to THINK about" that. Yes for the SBC you need to have an adapter plate, a remote oil filter kit, a gear reduction starter & an electric waterpump. All of the other items in that "Kit" are items that also need to be addressed wether it's a NStar or a SBC. With a "kit" all of those other items are addressed with parts & instructions provided by knuckle dragging neanderthals that have done the swap hundreds of times & know what they're talking about.
Sure, there's a few people here on PFF that will help the guys that want to do a NStar swap. But how does a new guy know who's advice is the correct advice? Then he needs to know if the guy he's decided to take advice from is going to be there until he's done or is he going to disappear when the going gets tough.
You state that the SBC guys are "guys who are afraid of fuel injection and think that all wiring is a nightmare". You couldn't be more wrong. The SBC guys just have more choices of which way they want to go. If they decide to use fuel injection, they find that there are dozens of companies that provide universal fit injection wire harnesses for virtually any injected SBC ever built. And the beauty of it is that they don't have to find some guy who claims he knows exactly how to build a harness for his swap & then wait months to get it or sometimes never get it at all. They can call companies like Street & Performance, Painless Wiring, Summit Racing, Jeg's & more & just order a harness & chip off the shelf. They'll have that harness within a week & it'll be plug & play. Now I notice that you are making wire harnesses for NStars & I wish you best of luck. However, I would submit that your customers are more afraid of wiring issues than mine are.
Time to start telling the whole story instead of calling people names.
Thanks
Archie
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10:20 PM
1fastcaddy Member
Posts: 618 From: Hays, Kansas Registered: Oct 2004
Hey archie, could you provide some more info on a ls1 swap? If he went the carb route, he could almost throw it right in and have a solid 320 horsepower from a proven engine. The ignition is covered by an aftermarket MSD ignition specifically designed for the ls1 carb swap. It seems that this intake is gold as far as performance is concerned. Thanks, Drew
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10:45 PM
Nov 26th, 2006
3084me Member
Posts: 1035 From: Bucks County, PA Registered: Apr 2005
I haven't had a chance to see (or drive) any "carbed" LS1 but I'm really pleased by the specs and the total setup in general. I think the system looks particularly attractive to someone who wants to make some pretty solid power and then upgrade to the F.I. in the future (if at all...)
Can someone tell me if this looks like the bottom of a Fiero strut ?
I need to put some new struts on the car now, but I'm not sure what to buy. I originally thought the car had Fiero struts since the rear wheel/hub is Fiero, but the top mounting point is not Fiero.
[This message has been edited by TEW (edited 11-26-2006).]
That strut looks Fieroish to me with a new spring perch lower down. Best bet would be to remove and measure it or at least check for any markings. It's hard to tell from the pic but I bet some coil overs would fit. Any good shop that deals with race cars should be able to help you out choosing struts and springs if you don't want to do it yourself.
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09:08 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
Can someone tell me if this looks like the bottom of a Fiero strut ?
I need to put some new struts on the car now, but I'm not sure what to buy. I originally thought the car had Fiero struts since the rear wheel/hub is Fiero, but the top mounting point is not Fiero.
Ok. So, if the top of the strut looks like this: http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q297/skewz-me/Ferraritopstrutmount.jpg That would mean I have the bottom half of a Fiero strut and the top half of a Ferrari strut, or is it more likely that either the upper or lower mounting has been changed? Is that hard to do? A suspension guy told me the springs appear to have been cut.
[This message has been edited by TEW (edited 11-26-2006).]
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10:49 PM
Nov 27th, 2006
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
It appears you do have a combination of parts. The other things observed in these 2 pics is that the Spring appears to be off center with the shaft of the shock. Also the Lower Fiero part of the strut & the upper shock part don't appear to be lined up square to each other. The spring could be cut, it doesn't appear to fit very well. The Spring is awful close to the sidewall of the tire. I'll bet your rear tires are wearing on the inside, the rear tire in the pictuire looks like it's leaning inboard at the top.
Archie
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12:35 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14249 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by Archie: You state that the SBC guys are "guys who are afraid of fuel injection and think that all wiring is a nightmare".
What I said was that the guys who don't think about their options are the ones who are afraid of wiring.
quote
But how does a new guy know who's advice is the correct advice?
By thinking critically about whatever problem he's having.
quote
They'll have that harness within a week & it'll be plug & play.
There's a big difference between being plug/play for the engine and being plug/play for the engine *in a Fiero chassis*. There are OTS wiring harnesses for Northstars as well, but none of those plug into a Fiero chassis like OE.
The majority of the items for a N* swap can be purchased OTS... SPEC, for instance makes aluminum flywheels. I'm not sure about the cost relative to yours, but last I heard your flywheels weighed 30#, so I wouldn't hesitate to go for a 10# SPEC unit even if it were more expensive. Flywheel inertia is a big factor in breaking transmissions.
From the pics I've seen on this forum, there wouldn't be much difference between a trip to the welding shop for a 5 speed Northstar install and a trip for a Chevy install. The Design 1 kit you've seen makes things a LOT more complicated than they have to be. Jon Lagler installed a 4T80E on a Fiero cradle without cutting it into a million pieces like Design 1 does. Things are obviously even simpler with a Fiero transmission.
In order to get a Chevy to fit in a Fiero engine bay you need either your special w/p drive or an electric or remote w/p. Don't forget about that.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-27-2006).]
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08:58 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14249 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
With all this talk about wiring harnesses, I 'd like to teach myself more on the subject. I'm probably a little better with wiring than I am with mechanicals. The Ferrari wiring leaves a bit to be desired, or so I'm told. I wouldn't mind going through the car's wiring and updating/improving it where I can. There's a guy on Ferrarichat.com that offers updated fuse blocks and everybody raves about. Allows you to get rid of those european style fuses and replace them with glass fuses. The relays in the car are probably really old as well. Any suggestions on where I can go to learn more about automobile wiring in general?
Excellent attitude. Learning more and enhancing skill sets never hurt anyone. As was discussed above, the factory manuals *should* have all the necessary info... at least American manufacturers put a lot of info in their books. '70's Jaguar wiring diagrams leave a LOT to be desired. I have NO idea how complete Ferrari service literature is.
The harness is a system that accepts certain inputs and provides certain outputs through the set of connectors whereby it interfaces with the chassis, engine and computer. It does no processing, but it does have to get the right information to the right place. If you create a list of all the functions that a harness has to fulfill, then match each item of this list up to the connector & pin w/in that connector that carries this function, then you will have created the wiring diagram for the harness that you need. The next step is routing the wires to achieve minimum weight or minimum cosmetic impact or whatever your routing criteria may be. Once you've decided what you need to wire and where the wires need to go, just run them there. Assuming you're adapting a pre-existing harness (as would be the case with an engine swap), some of the wires may need to be lengthened and some shortened, but doing this effectively is just a matter of understanding how to solder and create a durable joint that is protected from contamination.
Making a harness is neither difficult nor demanding in terms of skills required, what it takes is the ability to organize a large amount of information that's naturally broken up into very small chunks. Think about building a small sandcastle one grain at a time.
My most recent wiring project has been adapting the digital dash and driver information center from a Pontiac 6000 STE into my 6000 SE AWD. The STE dash harness has 232 wires, while the SE harness has 174. There are 74 changes that need to be made to the STE harness to adapt it to the SE AWD chassis. Compiling that information was the difficult part of the swap. Once that is done, adapting the harness is a matter of going down the list of changes and making them, one by one.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-27-2006).]
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11:01 AM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Will, you make it sound so easy. If only everyone in the world had your skills.
Mounting ANY engine into ANY car is so simple. Just fab mounts and a wiring harness, then run the hoses. If only people would just think more critically, they'd realize how simple it is.
And a few may figure out the difference between "simple" and "easy" along the way.
Just like Michaelangelo's method for sculpting, "it's simple: I take the block of marble and remove everything that's not the statue."
If you're a Michaelangelo of engine swaps, more power to ya. Not everyone has the skill, talent, time, desire, and resources of Michaelangelo.
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11:34 AM
GTFiero1 Member
Posts: 6508 From: Camden County NJ Registered: Sep 2001
i just really dont get why people think motors like the northstar and the 3.4 dohc are these super modern motors. Why because they use fuel injection, overhead cams and aluminum blocks (N*)? . Fuel injection has been around since the 50's, aluminum blocks since the 60's and overheads cams since the 30's. Actually i wonder if OHV pushrod motors came after overhead cam, before that the common use was flat-head.
------------------ Fiero- mild 2.9 160hp Caprice- wild 383 500hp --Adam-- ASE Certified Technician IM AOL: FieroGT5speed
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02:30 PM
ryan.hess Member
Posts: 20784 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Dec 2002
If a N* had the same displacement as a 350, it'd be making 375hp... with stock "butter idle" cams. Easily 475+hp with rumpy cams.
"And if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon."
Some of the modern stuff is really impressive, like the LS1, LS2, LS6, LS7... The LT4 gets close, but not quite. ZZ4 Fast Burn 385 Ram Jet 350
At least the 3800SC Series II and newer qualifies as "modern" by those standards. It needs a supercharger to do it, but it does it from the factory. But I don't hear anyone complain about how primitive it is, with it's cast iron block and heads, pushrods and 2-valve heads. Indeed, it's quite the popular engine.
So, those would be modern knuckle dragging neanderthals?
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03:26 PM
ryan.hess Member
Posts: 20784 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Dec 2002
You do realize there are old and modern versions of the vaunted 3800 as well as the Chevy V8? Get a boat anchor V8 out of a 78 pickup truck, and compare it to a 78 3.8 V6 out of a Regal. Heck, you can even compare the turbo 3.8 that was available in '78. You know, the one with a Quadrajet.
Or maybe modern tech has improved old designs like the Chevy V8 and 3800, as well as given us great new engines like the Northstar.
Now a DOHC V8 Northstar would work well as a replacement for the 308, but it all depends on personal preference.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 11-27-2006).]
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09:52 PM
GTFiero1 Member
Posts: 6508 From: Camden County NJ Registered: Sep 2001
If a N* had the same displacement as a 350, it'd be making 375hp... with stock "butter idle" cams. Easily 475+hp with rumpy cams.
engines been making 1hp+/cubic inch for quite some time most of which were just underrated from the factory, 454s rated at 450 closer to 500, DZ 302 rated at 290hp 350+, then there was the factory rated 350hp 327's. Then of course the LS2 and such making 400hp from 362ci. Though, with the in your header, i think that you know this
really, if i had a ferrari or lambo replica (though this is real) id go with a N* if i could afford it juts because it is more ferrari-like. But a mildly built hydraulic roller cammed SBC with webers would fit the carbed-era ferrari look also
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10:17 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Either a N*, or a Chevy V8 with an individual throttle body intake - be it Webers for F.I. Either would have the right look. Not sure if anyone makes an ITB intake for a Nothstar, but the visual impact would be tremendous.
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10:25 PM
ryan.hess Member
Posts: 20784 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Dec 2002
Originally posted by GTFiero1: engines been making 1hp+/cubic inch for quite some time most of which were just underrated from the factory, 454s rated at 450 closer to 500, DZ 302 rated at 290hp 350+, then there was the factory rated 350hp 327's
Gross HP, not net. 300 SAE net HP from a 279 cid Northstar is probably 350 gross HP in the old days.
My dad had a 327 with Rochester injection in a Corvair back in the day. Chevy offered hydraulic cam with carb for 350 HP and solid cam with fuel injection for 375 HP. My dad had the fuel injection on a hydraulic cam engine. If Chevy had offered that combo (and they should have) it probably would have been rated at 365 HP. Imagine how hot a 283 with that rated power would have been back in those days and then look at a Northstar these days.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-28-2006).]
I'm told the entire rear subframe from a Fiero was used, so it's got the stock Fiero engine cradle. Given that, maybe V8 Archie? Will they do the install, and how much will it cost turnkey? What kind of MPG would I get with that setup? Also, good A/C is important to me. I believe the rear suspension is all Fiero as well, but it may have been modified. Handles fine on smooth pavement, but I live in a rural area and I've noticed that the rear end will boucne and skip around a bit at high speeds when on rough pavement. Would this indicate bad struts? Recomendations ? As for the motor, I'm not all that disappointed with the performance as is. The biggest issue I have is that momentary hesitation mentioned earlier, which happens when you step hard on the gas. I owned several Fieros in my day, including a couple of 308 replicas. One thing I can tell you is, a Fiero is more comfortable to sit in and drive. The Ferrari is quite uncomfortable to sit in and drive, but you get used to it. You have to adjust the seat back in order to have enough headroom with the top on. I am considering bolting the seats directly to the floor or trying to find a set of racing seats that will sit lower. The car does get attention. Just today I was sitting in a Sonic drive up having lunch and a lady came with her 12 year old son who wanted to see the car. I invited him to sit in the drivers seat. My 16 year old daughter hates it because she says it attracts too much attention. For a 25 year + design, the 308 still looks incredible to me.
I know what you mean my 85 GT was that way after it was all modded and my fiance hated it too ... everyone thought it was some 07 or 08 prototype ferrari.. *shrugs*
makes you think that theyd make a killing if they brought it back into production...
BTW awesome car theres one by me for sale for $3850 but I wasnt sure if its worth it (roads here make it lmost unstreetable)
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