quote Originally posted by tjm4fun: I think you missed something. they are not synchronous ac motors. an synchronous motor has a set rpm, and does not vary from that. these are variable rpm motors. A minor point. The control for them is not out of the question, go to any of the electric car sites and they have controllers for ac motors. they are analog devices, as they work off the throttle controller. now in the prius trany, you have to use them for electric braking also to allow the ICE to input, also fairly easy to implement with set points relative to speed and throttle and brake inputs. while levers are the frankenstein approach (sorry, no offense) a simple state machine would be better suited to this task. a fully developed computer control would get the best efficiency, but to make the car drivable, even an analog circuit could be built to handle the task.

You're thinking of synchronous AC motors that run from a power line. Synchronous AC motors are designed to run a set RPM for the input frequency. Vary the input frequency and you vary the motor speed. All the mass-produced hybrids that are currently in production utilize Permanent Magnet Synchronous AC motors. These are powered by microcontroller operated inverter drives which vary frequency and voltage to the motor's 3 phases in order to affect acceleration and deceleration. These inverters are certainly available but are expensive, heavy, and somewhat bulky. They are most certainly not analog devices, although they do accept input from a potentiometer this is merely used as a control reference. Internally they are all digital providing a 3-phase PWM output that approximates the optimal sine wave of a power line.

I agree that simple circuitry could be built to control such a setup but I think you'd be far better off learning to code for a microprocessor even if you with with DC motors for simplicity. : ]

What's your degree in? Mine is only an Associates of Electronics Engineering Technology but I plan to improve on that soon.

Red 5spd Formula
Trot, the frequently smoking, fox... (no, not in that 'good' way...)

quote Originally posted by TrotFox: This idea might be fun to flesh out in a smaller format for purposes of testing... Say in a go-cart with a 5 horse Briggs? Might be neet to have the worlds first hybrid go-cart. } ; ]

Hmm... now there's an idea A proof of concept vehicle on the cheaper end of things. Small size would mean getting smaller engines, motors, and less batteries, all adding up to a considerable cost savings.

quote while levers are the frankenstein approach (sorry, no offense)

None taken The idea being that after some time playing with it, you would better know the values to set whatever computer control you put in (like a state machine), instead of needing the prius' wiring and ECU(s).

quote Originally posted by TrotFox: What's your degree in? Mine is only an Associates of Electronics Engineering Technology but I plan to improve on that soon. Red 5spd Formula Trot, the frequently smoking, fox... (no, not in that 'good' way...)

digital circuit design, microprocessor design. So I know how to make a digital controller, but I prefer to get a working analog model or a state machine to work from. those are somewhat easier to tweak.
the scale modeling is a thought, if I could get my hands on an old 3 speed bike hug, they have some solid little gears in a 3 step planetary system.
real sized parts may be available tho, I;ve seen what happens to a prius in a minor accident. I suspect there will be alot of them in wreckers in a year or so.
the motor drives are expensive tho, even with a small unit. I don;t think it would be cost effective to build that part yourself, even with the expense, as you will end up paying for the high power drivers, and risk letting the magic smoke out if your design is off. Power switiching circuits are best left to people who do that everyday.

Agreed! That said though, boring old brushed DC motors would be fine for a proof-of-concept model and can be fairly easily controlled with PWM systems. I've never had the hub out of a bike though so I'll have to take your word for it. I suspect a lot could be done with treadmill motors in this vein...

Red 5spd Formula (full size go-cart, everyone at work says so!)
Trot, the thinkerin', fox...

As the proud owner of a 2006 Ford Escape Hybrid and past SCCA Formula 440 driver, (This 750lb. race car utilizes the snowmobile belt drive CVT), I can add a little to this conversation.
The CVT, as used in a snowmobile, is rather inefficient. It robs HP to operate the CVT. However, because the 440cc, 2cyl., 2stroke we were running was spinning at 9000rpm, we were making the best HP, (about 72), this motor could produce. The acceleration was nothing short of amazing.
The ECVT, (Electronically controlled CVT), is far better. It uses solenoids or hydraulics to shift the pulleys. The computer determines if you want peak acceleration or economy, by your input, (The accelerator pedal). This is, "FLY-BY-WIRE", in the escape. Your pedal is connected to a potentiometer, not the throttle body.
Don't confuse the planetary gear set with the transmission. The planetary gear set is what determines where the power is coming from, but it all goes into the CVT. In the video on a previous post, that would be the top pulley. The bottom pulley would go to the axles.
In the Escape Hybrid, reverse is strictly electric. This is because of the planetary gear set. It can only spin in one direction, when driven by the ICE, but the electric motor can turn it backwards for reverse.
The gear shifter is also a, "FLY-BY-WIRE". It is only a request sent to the computer. I can pull my shifter to Low or Reverse at any speed. (I know this is true for Low, but I'm not going to test the Reverse at 80MPH). The computer has some "self preservation" software that won't allow you to destroy it.
There is a Yahoo group, (of course), all about the Ford Escape Hybrid, (FEH). There is a lot to learn there about getting the best MPG. I have never gotten less then 30 and normally get 33.
And by the way... GM says it is going to introduce a series hybrid in January, at the Detroit auto show. (The Escape is a parallel Hybrid)
My 2 fingers are tired,
Kevin

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85 Fiero-based ASPP GT-40 MarkII. 3800 S/C, Auto, Held suspension all around with 2" drop spindles and sport fr. end. RCC bump-steer correction. Mr. Mike's interior.

GT40,

I have been unable to find any info stating that Ford uses a variable-pulley belt drive in their CVT. What I have found is a description of a setup that's nearly identical to Toyota's but adapted for AWD use (extra gears and shafts.) I know for a fact that the Toyota system uses the planetary gear set as a CVT trans by varying the revs of GM2 vs the ICE. The Ford system looks to function identically from all the info I've been able to gather online. Has one of your group disassembled the drive or talked to a FoMoCo engineer/technician that's familiar with it?

Trot, the engineering, fox...

Doing some more thinking. Obviously the current roadblock is all the electronics, so I took a step back and looked at the problem again.

What's really needed is not so much the specific Prius setup as much as any parallel hybrid setup. Parallel hybrid meaning both the electric and ICE can power the car at the same time, instead of a series hybrid, where the ICE turns a generator that powers batteries that power an electric motor. I'm not sure which current hybrids fit into which categories, haven't done the research yet. http://www.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-car.htm has some (general) info. Apparantly some parallel hybrids even use a conventional transmission, which could take care of the worries about planetary gears or steel belt CVT's. Anyway, the second part that arises is the complexity of the electrical system.

Taking a further step back, the system doesn't need an electric motor as the secondary/smaller/more streetable motor. It just has to fit the space and power requirements. So what about a smaller ICE? Like a 3-cyl metro, or even a v-twin or v-4? Add a second (smaller) radiator, and possibly secondary fuel cell (as you might want to run different gas in each motor). For ease of conversion, run it off a simple carb setup, or standalone EFI. For controls, one possibility would be to add a second gas pedal, if you have enough space in the foot well, to the right of the current pedal. This way, you can switch between the two as necessary, and even power both at the same time for that "little bit extra". I don't know how much synchronizing rpm's comes into play, but it must be dealt with somehow if there are working hybrids that use this approach with an electric motor (which has a different powerband than the ICE). The system may not use any more gas than an electric hybrid, depending on how it's driven, especially now that you get rid of the battery weight.

From what I understand of the Prius system, if you went this route you'd still need a motor to control the sun of the planetary gear. Time to look at some other options

quote Originally posted by kwagner: any parallel hybrid setup. Parallel hybrid meaning both the electric and ICE can power the car at the same time, instead of a series hybrid, where the ICE turns a generator that powers batteries that power an electric motor.

I want a parallel hybrid, because that is what seems to take biggest advantage of both engines. I look to the Prius as an example because it is still arguably the best implementation of a hybrid out there, in terms of efficiency anyway.

The ICE is only used in it's powerband where it's most efficient, both to power the car and to generate electricity. That electricity can then be used by the AC motor to power the car at low speed, where it is most efficient.

The only thing I would do differently is make it a plug-in hybrid so that small daily commutes could be made with electricity from the grid and not generated by a small gas engine. The Prius battery pack is really tiny. Only 6.5 Ah at 273.6 volts, (228 NiMH cells) I would enhance that at least 5 fold to 25 Ah pack and your parallel plug-in hybrid would easily get over 100 mpg.

Now just someone figure out how to couple those two motors together and control them in a Fiero!

The following link has the best explanation I have seen of the Toyota power split device. It doesn't work like anything I have ever seen. Calling it a CVT is like calling a 747 a modified Wright Flyer...

http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-transmission

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 11-29-2006).]

Thanks for the link.
I agree with you that the prius is a good implementation. The issue comes in the transferring of the system to another vehicle. As trotfox said (and the link confirms), MG1 is a controlling factor in how much power goes to the wheels vs charging the system. This adds to the complexity of any third party implementation (maintaining two electric motors spinning at possibly different rates). With a regular transmission, I wouldn't think this would be necessary, which is why there might be another parallel hybrid better suited to being transplanted.

You brought up one thing I forgot to take into account in my "two ICE" tangent above: the fact that electric motors make a lot of torque from 0rpm, and don't have to idle. I do know that there are ways to use an ICE without it idling, where it comes to a stop when you stop and starts back up when you move, but to my knowledge that's only in lower power applications like golf carts. Even with idling, there are some rather economical small engines out there. Of course it's better to get away from gasoline consumption completely, and I think electric motors are a good step in that direction. Until we get more efficient ways of collecting and storing electric energy though, it won't be the final step.

The metro engines get hybrid mileage already. it is typical of a 3cyl metro stick to get 50mpg or higher. I get 44mpg on my 4cyl 4 door 1100pound metro all the time and I have the suzuki swift Gti motor making 129hp instead of the 72hp the 3cyl makes.

Honestly you can easily get hybrid mileage out of a standard engine. you need to balance the weight+load with HP ratios and Gearing. Me driving on the highway with empty car get's 48mpg top. Me and a 180lb passenger + towing a small trailer with a 2.8 engine,tranny and cradle gets 22mpg. Take a look at the detailed specs on the metros, the Mercedes Smartcar and other gasoline high gas mileage cars and you can find the formula for HP to weight to target. Now add a transmission with the right gear ratios and you can make a high gas mileage fiero.

How about this? a 2m4 auto with a 4t60 transmission that has the 2.9 final gearing in it? you should turn 1800rpm at 75mph in that setup.

[This message has been edited by timgray (edited 11-29-2006).]

I used to have a geo storm, base 5spd. Got 40mpg regularly

The initial purpose of the hybrid in this thread was for performance, not fuel economy (although the more economy the better). By using a smaller secondary motor, you can add your high-performance non-streetable engine and only turn it on when you need it.

And for jscott: now you can plug a prius in

[This message has been edited by kwagner (edited 11-29-2006).]

I just had an idea of how you could build a parallel hybrid into a Fiero without the need for a power splitting device...

Mount an extremely powerful generator on the ICE in the back, and mount the electric motor up front, by modifying the knuckles and making it front wheel drive. You could use it in series FWD only, or ICE RWD only, or for crazy performance, fire them both up in AWD!

If you had one of those unstreetable 500 hp V8s in the back, coupled to a 200 hp 300 ft-lb electric up front, it would have insane perfomance off the line.

As for gasoline cars getting hybrid mileage, that isn't entirely correct. I had a Geo Storm and it was a great car, but It was tiny. An adult could not sit in the rear seat at all. The Prius by contrast is huge. 5 adults can legitimately sit in it and still carry cargo. And it can do that and still get 50 mpg. So it's not apples to apples. A hybrid the size of the smart car would get 80 mpg.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 11-30-2006).]

quote A hybrid the size of the smart car would get 80 mpg.

True, didn't think about that.

When I was looking at putting 4wd into a fiero, using a motor/generator was one idea that crossed my mind. It seemed feasable, you wouldn't have to have any kind of line-of-sight between the front and back for an axle. I was trying to do direct generator-to-motor, though. Having a battery pack as an in-between never occured to me. I was reading wikipedia yesterday looking for other hybrids, and it looks like the lexus RX400h does something similar to accomplish their AWD system (although they have an additional electric motor helping out the ICE). Looks like it would work

quote Originally posted by kwagner: When I was looking at putting 4wd into a fiero, using a motor/generator was one idea that crossed my mind. It seemed feasable,

The more I think of the AWD Parallel hybrid the more I like it. You could use a very simple logic controller to decide how much each engine contributes, or even a manual lever as suggested earlier. The electric motor and transmission, (single gear) would not take up much room at all up front, and you wouldn't need a lot of batteries, since you can recharge on the fly.

The only thing is I'm trying to imagine what front wheel drive car would have knuckles that could be adapted to the Fiero? Maybe going back to the original source...the Citation/X-body?

The only operational trick I see is synchronizing speeds and such between motors. What's your plan for engaging/disengaging the front motor? You could do some kind of double-action clutch pedal, where if you have it pushed in, it engages the clutch of the front motor and disengages the clutch of the rear. If you let the pedal out, it disengages the front and engages the rear. You'd have to have some lever or switch to change the mode of operation when you want to run both motors at the same time. But to use that method you'd have to have the clutch down all the time, which would get tiring.

If you can find one that can support the torque, maybe use something similar to the electric clutch used on the A/C compressor. Then you can digitally tell it when to engage and disengage, for whatever logic you decide.

Why restrict yourself to a foot clutch? You could easily control the rear with a conventional foot clutch, then control the electric motor with a hand lever clutch that you wouldn't have to "babysit".

Trotfox,
The Escape hybrid does not use the same Trans setup as the prius. It is a belt/pulley CVT, similar to a snowmobile but of course, able to carry much more load. I did a quik search and found this site http://reviews.cnet.com/2005_Ford_Escape_Hybrid_AWD_4dr_SUV_2_3L_4cyl_CVT/4660-10863_7-6428486.html
The only thing he says is, "A series of pulleys and metal bands", while discribing the CVT in the escape. The "metal bands" are what replaces the rubber belt in a snowmobile.
Since people are afraid to buy "new" technology, Ford covers my CVT, DC/DC converter and NMH battery for 8 years/ 100K miles.
Kevin

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85 Fiero-based ASPP GT-40 MarkII. 3800 S/C, Auto, Held suspension all around with 2" drop spindles and sport fr. end. RCC bump-steer correction. Mr. Mike's interior.

quote Originally posted by Toaster_Man: Why restrict yourself to a foot clutch? You could easily control the rear with a conventional foot clutch, then control the electric motor with a hand lever clutch that you wouldn't have to "babysit".

Exactly, a simple hand lever for the speed of the electric motor... and even better an electric motor doesn't need a clutch. The motor just stops when the car stops. With no current the electric motor will just be freewheeling. Or you could use it for regenerative braking.

And electric motors have a wide enough RPM range that you don't have to shift either. Since the motors are not connected, (except through the ground) you don't need to synchronize them. Unless the wheels are slipping, the motors will be sychronized by definition. If one pulls harder then the effort on the other one will decrease, but the RPM will be a function of the speed and the gear ratio.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 11-30-2006).]

If the motors aren't synchronized won't the slower motor just be creating drag for the faster motor? This would make the system less efficient and effectively lower performance. In order to avoid synchronizing the motors you would have to connect them to the wheels via a one way bearing.

quote Originally posted by Toaster_Man: If the motors aren't synchronized won't the slower motor just be creating drag for the faster motor? This would make the system less efficient and effectively lower performance. In order to avoid synchronizing the motors you would have to connect them to the wheels via a one way bearing.

That's what I was concerned with. If the electric motor isn't providing power, it's generating power by being spun, and thus taking power out of the wheel rotation. The only one-way bearings that I'm familiar with are on a 10+ speed bike, but those wouldn't work for high torque/power situations I wouldn't think.

If you are not reverse loading the electric motor, it will only be spun mass, a minimal anount of drag induced there. it will not act as a braking force unless you energize one set of windings on a non permenant magnet motor. so your biggest concern is how you want the motor to react to the ICE components power output and your demands as a driver.
Forget one way bearings, wasteful and impractical, you have much better uses for the electric component.

since you seem to have planned a type of manual transmission for the rear drive, or even if it is a cvt, you have to simply decide the function for the elect. motor, ie assist mode for acceleration, full drive for cruise mode, braking on decel.
the simplest scenario is with the cvt. the electric speed is linked to the gas pedal. You can have it switched out for ice only driving, a simple switch removes the add power, but allows braking for battery recharge. now switch it in, and key it to the gas pedal. you can use current draw on the motor for a feedback. you could have a performance/economy mode too.
since you are looking to this for performance, you will need to determine the max current you can apply without wheel spin, and set the controller up for that at wot. after that, you run parallel throttles, one to the t/b on the ICE, the other to the motor speed controller. as you step on the gas, both apply power relative to your foot.
now if you went with a manual tranny on the ICE, you would want the electric to continue carrying the load while shifting, again, not too big an issue with clutch in/ no brake switches. the speed would need to be keyed to the gear selector, adding more complexity. you would need to set some limits by gear for the motor rpm as it is direct drive, and throttle is changing ICE rpms relative to the gear you are in.
it sounds like it;s getting complicated, but it is not unreasonable to implement without computer control as a test bed. adding computer control would be smoother and more precise, and the necessary parameters can be determined by monitoring the "analog" system. The cvt transmission would be easiest. an automatic std tranny next, the manual the most circuitry.
avoiding "clutches" increases reliabilty. the key is co-ordinating both motors to compliment each other.

[This message has been edited by tjm4fun (edited 11-30-2006).]

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun: . the key is co-ordinating both motors to compliment each other.

Exactly, I"m thinking back to the frankenstein analog stick that would select from several modes, either discrete or on a sliding scale...

1) Electric only, it would act exactly like an electric only car with no assist whatsoever from the ICE.

2) Next mode would be electric motor for traction with electrical generation from the ICE. I'm thinking of a manual transmission because you could just put the ICE in neutral for this mode. The ICE could shut it self down if the batteries are full.

3) 50/50 Electric with ICE assist, This would be the maximum performance mode and the throttle could be connected to both motors.

4) ICE with electric assist. During uphils and passing the electric would help, but primarily it would be burning gas.

5)) ICE only. No assist from the electric. You still might use electric regenerative braking or just let it freewheel.

I agree that you could drive it that way as a test bed for developing parameters to be able to switch between modes automatically. The human would still have to select gears from the ICE but you could make the car respond appropriately to what the gear selector is saying.

Since I like shifting in general, the manual mode selector appeals to me. Imagine passing on the freeway and you jam forward the lever to bring the electric motor on line, it would be like having a 200 shot of nitrous!

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 11-30-2006).]

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Exactly, I"m thinking back to the frankenstein analog stick that would select from several modes, either discrete or on a sliding scale... 1) Electric only, it would act exactly like an electric only car with no assist whatsoever from the ICE. 2) Next mode would be electric motor for traction with electrical generation from the ICE. I'm thinking of a manual transmission because you could just put the ICE in neutral for this mode. The ICE could shut it self down if the batteries are full. 3) 50/50 Electric with ICE assist, This would be the maximum performance mode and the throttle could be connected to both motors. 4) ICE with electric assist. During uphils and passing the electric would help, but primarily it would be burning gas. 5)) ICE only. No assist from the electric. You still might use electric regenerative braking or just let it freewheel.

all simple,:
for 1, don't start the ICE, leave it in neutral.
for 2, all transmissions have a neutral, so you don't need to habve a manual.
3 is just a matter of setting the parameter for the EM controller.
4. simple in that mode, ice is off. low vacuum and request for more power(accelerating) turns on the EM circuitry you implemented in 3.
5. disable the EM controller, override with brake switch to go into regen mode.

the decsion points all depend on step 3, once you get them in sync, the other modes are simple switches.
Sorta like the power/ecoenomy modes buttons on alot of new car automatic shiters.

from the reading I';ve done on some electric car sites, the technology for the EM drive is readily available, in many forms. this might be do-able with off the shelf parts. (not cheap off the shelpf parts, but available)
squeezing a drive in the front of the Fiero is all yours tho.

[This message has been edited by tjm4fun (edited 12-01-2006).]

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun: the technology for the EM drive is readily available, in many forms. this might be do-able with off the shelf parts. (not cheap off the shelpf parts, but available) squeezing a drive in the front of the Fiero is all yours tho.

EXACTLY! There are off the shelf kits that can practically do all of what I would need to have a parallel hybrid, the only difficult part is making the Fiero all wheel drive.

Any thoughts on how to do that? You have to replace the knuckles with those that can accept axles like the ones in the rear. Once you have that, the EM drive, transmission and axles practically drop right in.

I'm not going to lie, I haven't read almost anything on this page as I'm leaving for work in 10 minutes and I don't have time.

But, I had this thought and thought I'd ask and see if it would work in real life or not.

I've been toying with the idea of a smallish diesel, Something with enough power to move a car with XXX weight in it. Well, I'll use the fiero as an example. Take into account that the fiero weighs 2400 lbs, then add 400 for passengers and stuff, and take into account the gear ratios (using the isuzu of course) essenatially you'd need an engine capable of pulling 2800 lbs, up to speed and maintianing. So, let's say 80 ft lbs will safely pull around 2800 lbs, and be able to get up a hill as well. You have a smallish diesel that makes all it's power down low, to aid the fact that it doesn't have much, and what if you could put a small electric motor in to help it out as well. I don't know if you could mount them this way so this is partially my question, could you put in a chain drive hooking the two together so that when the electric motor spins it essentially spins the diesel motor? If you could, you could use a slightly smaller diesel and just make sure the batteries are deep cycle and will live long enough that you could use the electric motor for say 5-10 minutes straight. It would also help to have it mounted to an A/C style clutch so the diesel doesn't have to spin it all the time but I'm just thinking out loud here as I'd like to do this myself.

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96 Saturn SL2 Turbo (evil SL2)

My cardomain site: cardomain.com/memberpage/702872
T3 60 trim + 4 PSI + crappy tires = 14.47 @ 99 MPH and 31 MPG

Ahh but you're back to the catch-22 of electrics.

to get any decent boost from an electric motor you will need a high capacity battery bank. The hybrids are not designed for performance so their battery pack is small for only occasional boost and do load down the engine for recharge. you guys wan no engine load down (unless you tell it to for recharge) and will want an extended power assist from the electric motor. That = big battery pack.

If you are incredibly rich, you can build one from Ni-Mi or Li-Ion batteries and a charge controller (you cant just dump electricity into these) and have the lightest battery pack possible for the boost you want giving the only efficient gain or..

a bank of about 5-10 Lead acid car batteries (deep cycle of course) giving you lots of extra weight removes the HP gains.

A neighbor of mine used to do electric car drag racing. there are electric cars out there that will make a new Z06 vette look incredibly slow off the line. He regularly put kids to shame at the track with his ice cream truck he built... Needed the truck chassis to handle the battery weight.

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun: it will not act as a braking force unless you energize one set of windings on a non permenant magnet motor.

Ah, so that's what I was missing

quote to get any decent boost from an electric motor you will need a high capacity battery bank

Ok, let's run some numbers
According to http://www.go-ev.com/motors-warp.html , The "White Zombie" electric drag car used two WarP 8 motors, but that's all it had. It did 12.151@106.25mph in the 1/4. With the ICE, we go for simplicity and only use one. The electric takes care of business off the line, and the ICE handles the top end.

According to the WarP 8 graphs, it uses a max of 463 A @ 72 V, for 33.3 kW of power. Reading those graphs still confuses me a little, so if I got that wrong let me know

here's a chart of various batteries, their capacities, dimensions, and weight. http://www.madkatz.com/battery.html has a set of links to manufacturers. It would seem there are no "silver bullets": either it weighs too much, or is prohibitively expensive.

But wait a minute! We have two advantages that a pure EV doesnt! First, we have an ICE onboard. Second, this is for performance, not fuel economy. The whole reason that the ICE isn't solely used is because it isn't "streetable". It has too high an idle to be usable at low rpms, like moving from a stop. 1 hp = 745.xxx watts. That means, if the ICE is in neutral, generating just 50 hp, it could cover the power consumption of the electric motor! No storing necessary, just some conversion. This isn't adding power as much as making the power you already have more usable. You now have two powerbands to work with, one for the electric and one for the ICE. As the electric motor's use starts to wane, as rpm's start to climb, you engage the clutch and bring the ICE's power to the wheels. Now both are engaged at the same time. The power applied to the electric motor should be in inverse proportion to the speed you're going. Just a "simple" circuit control, or use the "frankenstein" lever

quote Originally posted by kwagner: That means, if the ICE is in neutral, generating just 50 hp, it could cover the power consumption of the electric motor! No storing necessary, just some conversion. ...

This could work, but I think I would still advocate a small battery bank, maybe 5 or 6 deep cycle AGMs or however many I needed to get to the operating voltage of whatever EM that I am using. I still want to be able to cruise around in stealth mode with full electric capability.

I am primarliy interesting in economy, but I wouldn't mind embarrassing a few cars at the track with the performance of a parallel hybrid. Also, if you are going to go to all the trouble to put in an electric motor you might as well enjoy the "cool factor" of sneeking up on pedestrians in the cross walk and scaring the crap out of them.

quote Originally posted by kwagner: I was just thinking about engines (as I often do), and how to get maximum power. Obviously directly chaining two engines together, like an F1 and a diesel, doesn't work. But the idea behind it is solid: use two engines, one for low-end torque off the line, and another for high-end horsepower. Additionally, there has always been a tradeoff in building engines between power and being "streetable". Your V8 monster may make 600HP, but idles at around 2500. That doesn't work very well on the street But what if it could? The prius uses a planetary gear setup to allow both an electric motor and a piston motor to control the same transmission, either independently or at the same time. The electric motor is used in stop and go situations, while the piston motor is used for highway speeds. Of course the goal of the prius is fuel economy. Take out that wimpy 3-cylinder, and put in a monster V8 (or whatever your choice of engine is ). Your engine may not be able to idle at "streetable" speeds, but so what? You have the electric motor to cover that. Once you hit WOT, look out! You could even take this a step further, and engines that were tried on their own but not practical now could be viable. For example, in the Chrysler turbine car trial in the 60s, people complained of it being sluggish off the line. The engine was fine if it was spooled up before leaving the line, but there's now a better way, using the above method. Then you'd have the high end power of a jet engine, without sacrificing the instant takeoff.

Chevrolet is doing a hybrid gas/elec V8 in the Silverados.
http://www.chevrolet.com/pop/silveradoclassic/2007/hybrid_en.jsp


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'87 2.8v6 5spd
Fiero

[This message has been edited by cjgable (edited 12-01-2006).]

quote Originally posted by cjgable: Chevrolet is doing a hybrid gas/elec V8 in the Silverados. http://www.chevrolet.com/pop/silveradoclassic/2007/hybrid_en.jsp

That's been out for a while...it's considered a "mild" hybrid in that the electric motor can't power the vehicle. The only real advantage is that that it can shut off the motor when the vehicle is stopped, and automatically restart.

Yeah, it is more for fuel economy, but if an electrical guru can mod it for more for HP.....

Yeah, but stuffing a truck bed full of batteries is easy Making it work in a fiero is more of a challenge

quote Originally posted by jscott1: EXACTLY! There are off the shelf kits that can practically do all of what I would need to have a parallel hybrid, the only difficult part is making the Fiero all wheel drive. Any thoughts on how to do that? You have to replace the knuckles with those that can accept axles like the ones in the rear. Once you have that, the EM drive, transmission and axles practically drop right in.

the problem with the front is the low nose. fwd use struts like the rear, there is no room for that,I don't recall seeing any strut small enough to fit. so, then you need to rethink the layout. pre 88 shock mounting gets the shock out of the way. now there is only the spring. possibly 2 small coilover and shocks would do it. the 88 front knuckle already is capable of using a thru axle/cv, but the spacing is too tight between the existing control arms. also the whole front suspension assembly is solid directly behind the axle line.
I think that you would need to start with a hunting trip to the local yards, keying in on any fwd small car. since I doubt most people would know what might fit, you have look at a bunch of cars, nd see if anything looks feasable. you will need to build a frame cradle and notch the existing frame rails for axle travel.

the only other option would be to use 2 small motors, one on each side, if you can find ones that would fit between the control arms and the ball joint mountings. the more I think on it, the more work it is, and possible not even feasable to implement awd.

[This message has been edited by tjm4fun (edited 12-01-2006).]

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun: I think that you would need to start with a hunting trip to the local yards, keying in on any fwd small car. since I doubt most people would know what might fit, you have look at a bunch of cars, nd see if anything looks feasable. you will need to build a frame cradle and notch the existing frame rails for axle travel.

That's the ticket. There are hundreds of different FWD models out there. Surely at least one of them has a setup similar in size to the Fiero that you could adapt a strut that wasn't too big. I've also seen a spring over the control arm setup. Not too common but it's possible.

But as I see it, the only technical hurdle to making a parallel mode hybrid is to make a FWD/AWD Fiero.

So when are you going to start your build thread? You have to be considering it by now

quote Originally posted by kwagner: So when are you going to start your build thread? You have to be considering it by now

You're right. Ever since gas topped $3 a gallon last summer I have been thinking about building a hybrid... With the help of this thread I've almost got it worked out, except for that FWD problem, which I'm sure can be solved, with enough cutting and welding.

The only thing stopping me is that it won't be cheap, and I already have two build threads going in GFC. If I can ever get at least one of those projects to a stopping point then the hybrid is next.

Sweet! I'll be waiting impatiently

quote But as I see it, the only technical hurdle to making a parallel mode hybrid is to make a FWD/AWD Fiero.

From the thread in GFC that got bumped:
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/061012.html






GM already solved the FWD problem If you got ahold of the docs from the Michigan Fiero Club, you could possibly see what they used or how they accomplished it.

Edit: If I'm seeing these right, they added in strut tower mounting points? That would take care of the issue..

[This message has been edited by kwagner (edited 12-02-2006).]

quote Originally posted by kwagner: Edit: If I'm seeing these right, they added in strut tower mounting points? That would take care of the issue..

I've been thinking about this all day, and all you need is the subframe from a front wheel drive car and then as you say add in the strut tower mounting points. Without taking any measurements, I bet you could squeeze that in under the hood line of the Fiero. The strut towers are going to be close to the firewall where you have the most clearance.

I was looking at getting an old Cavalier or even Citation, and removing the subframe but what about the 84-87 Fiero cradle? All you have to do is find a rear steer rack and moint it to the tie rod ends already there. I'm betting the Citation rack would bolt right up? The only problem is any steering rack you get would be power steering and since I want stealth mode, I would have to drive that power steering pump electrically. Many, many posts on the problems of doing that, but its doable. But the 84-87 cradle is free, since I have one in my backyard.