i have been looking into doing a 3800 sc swap. is there a difference in the car you get it from or are they all the same? does the year matter? just want the most power from a stock i can get.

04 to present series III 3800 s/c out of a w body. Next, 99 upto 03 again out of a W body, ie grand prix or regal. The only real preference with W body is the oil filter adaptor is better suited to clear the cradle.

Edit, 97 or 98 are not a poor choice either just would have to upgrade the Throttle body, thats all.

Pete

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[This message has been edited by PBJ (edited 09-02-2006).]

why do you have to upgrade the throttle body for the 97-98?

This should answer your question--theres also some good info in there that may help if your going with a 3800SC, hope it helps some.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/073353.html

i have been looking at parts for a 3800 sc. now what is the difference in the gen 3 and gen 5 motors? can they be put in a fiero? or is this just a type of sc they have?

quote Originally posted by gold87: i have been looking at parts for a 3800 sc. now what is the difference in the gen 3 and gen 5 motors? can they be put in a fiero? or is this just a type of sc they have?

You can use a gen 5 engine but you will need to change the throttle body and intake manifold I think.

Updates to the 2006 L32



3800 SERIES III SUPERCHARGED 3.8L V-6 (L32)

2006 model year summary

• Supercharger gasket revised
• Intake manifold revised
• Composite rocker cover added
• Catalytic converter size and substrate composition optimized
• Front cover revised for new water pump
• Rod and crankshaft bearings changed to lead-free
Full descriptions of new or changed features

Supercharger gasket revised

An aluminum gasket carrier is added to better seal the supercharger assembly, reducing emissions.

Intake manifold revised

Upgraded side gaskets for the intake manifold and a laser-welded purge valve reduce noise.

Composite rocker cover

The rocker arm covers are changed to a stronger, more durable composite material for high-ileage durability.

Catalytic converter size and substrate composition optimized

A larger volume converter with a revised mixture of precious metals is added to further reduce emissions.

Front cover revised for new water pump

A new water pump with more robust gaskets is incorporated into the front cover of the engine to increase high-ileage reliability.

Rod and crankshaft bearings changed to lead-free

As part of an ongoing effort to eliminate toxic materials in powertrain products, the bearings have been replaced with materials free of lead.


Overview

GM’s 3800 is to V-6 engines what the original Chevrolet small block is to the V-8. The Series III enhances the 3800’s reputation as a competitive and contemporary engine, with output, efficiency and emissions levels that meet or beat overhead-cam engines. And it does so with superior low-end response.

Since the first 3800 was introduced by Buick, more than 25 million have been built, and its configurations and technology have continuously evolved. Both the enthusiast and business press have raved about the 3800; it has been selected as one Ward’s Auto World’s Ten Best Engines in the World three different times, as well as named being named to several lists in 2000 as one of the best engines of the 20th century.

The 3800 Series II V-6 was first supercharged for the Buick Park Avenue Ultra. The result was output and performance comparable to competitive V-8s, with the efficiency of a V-6. The durable, highly refined design of the standard 3800 allowed most major engine components, including block, crankshaft and cylinder heads, to be used for the supercharged variant without modification.

The 3800 Series III, launched in 2004, was developed with several goals: improve quality, performance and flexibility; reduce noise, vibration and harshness, as well as cost of ownership; and deliver contemporary features such as electronic throttle control. Each goal has been achieved. Moreover, these objectives were achieved without reducing fuel economy or increasing unit cost.

The L32 is available in the Pontiac Grand Prix GTP.

The following represent key features of the 3800 Series III SC:

• Bending braces for powertrain
A stiff powertrain (engine and transmission combination) helps make a vehicle quiet and free from bothersome vibrations. By reducing primary and secondary vibrations, as well as ancillary resonance from accessories and their brackets, noise and vibrations are minimized.

The 3800 Series III SC debuted as a quiet powertrain, but in the quest for an even greater feeling of quality and refinement, GM Powertrain engineers added braces to



increase the robustness of the connection between the engine and the transaxle. Two braces are used, one on the front of the powertrain assembly, the other on the rear. Each brace works to make the individual engine and transmission assemblies a structural single unit.


• Structural cast aluminum oil pan
Another major step toward improved engine refinement comes from the added stiffness provided by a cast aluminum oil pan, which provides a structural member on which the engine mounts and powertrain bending braces attach. In place of the 2004 engine's stamped steel oil pan, a robust cast aluminum oil pan is now used. This strong yet lightweight pan adds stiffness to the engine, helping it resist twisting and bending, further improving the engine's feeling of quality.


• Oil pan seal
The oil pan design also benefits from the use of an advanced RTV sealer with silicone to reduce the possibility of oil leaks.


• Eaton Gen V supercharger
The 3800 Series III SC is fitted with highly sophisticated, segment-exclusive Eaton Gen V supercharger. It provides the Grand Prix powerful acceleration, with power ratings of 260 horsepower (186 kw) and 280 lb.-ft. of torque (380 Nm).

The 90-cubic-inch Gen V supercharger is very efficient. While its exterior dimensions are slightly larger than the previous unit, it boasts:


• Improved air flow through larger tuned inlet port and larger, less restrictive outlet port. The net result is a 7 percent improvement in volumetric efficiency
• More efficienct supercharger that requires 9 percent lower rpm to deliver same air flow and a 13-percent reduction in the power required to spin the supercharger
• APC Teflon-like coating allows for tighter tolerances resulting in minimal leakage. This change allowed GM engineers to change the fuel requirement from "Premium fuel required" to "Premium fuel recommended."
• PO5 powertrain control module (PCM)
The P05 PCM provides state-of-the-art electronic engine management in the 3800 Series III. The PO5 has 50 percent more random access memory (RAM) than the



previous-generation P04, twice as much read-only memory (ROM) and a 60-percent increase in clock speed (approximately 25 MHz). It allows more integration of powertrain and vehicle systems, such as electronic traction control and heating, ventilation and air conditioning (HVAC) operation, and it provides more sophisticated diagnostics, particularly for the Onboard Refueling Vapor Recovery (ORVR) system. Moreover, it takes full advantage of features such as the ultra-fast oxygen sensors and electronic throttle control.


• Electronic throttle control (ETC)
The 3800 Series III SC features electronic "drive-by-wire" throttle control. With ETC, there is no mechanical link between the accelerator pedal and the throttle. A potentiometer at the gas pedal measures pedal angle and sends a signal to the throttle actuator controller (TAC) module, which is integrated in the throttle body and passes the signal to the powertrain control module (PCM). The PCM then directs an electric motor to open the throttle at the appropriate rate. ETC delivers outstanding throttle response and greater reliability than a mechanical throttle. Cruise control functions are integrated into the throttle control, reducing the number of engine parts and simplifying assembly.

Grand Prix's ETC is programmed with 19 separate throttle maps, or curves, tailored to deliver engine response according to the driving situation. At lower speed the curves are more progressive, for more subdued engine response. During parking lot maneuvers, for example, a given application of the gas pedal will deliver less engine power. At medium to high speeds, the throttle curves are steeper for more aggressive engine response.


• Powdered metal connecting rods
The 3800 Series III has hot-forged powdered metal connecting rods. Powdered metal is more durable and reliable than conventional cast iron, delivering greater anticipated life. As importantly, the powdered metal rods are stiffer than the cast iron parts they replace.


• Returnless fuel injection
The 3800 Series III is equipped with a "returnless" fuel injection system that eliminates fuel return lines between the engine and the fuel tank. Because it delivers only the amount of fuel need by the injectors, and returns no fuel to the fuel tank, the returnless system eliminates heat transfer from the engine to tank. This reduces the amount of vapor generated in the tank, and captured by the Onboard Refueling Vapor Recovery (ORVR) system.



• Damplator vibration balance
Because of their cylinder configuration, 90-degree V-6 engines can create torsional vibration in the crank – essentially flexing along the length of the crankshaft – at certain engine speeds. The Series III Dampolator delivers the benefits of both a damper (at higher engine speeds) and isolator (at lower engine speeds). This computer-tuned crank balancer consists of two separate discs with two rubber springs of different thickness. It is effective at both ends of the rpm range and as a result, reduces vibration and harshness regardless of engine speed.


• Direct-mount air conditioning compressor
The air conditioning compressor bolts directly to the 3800 Series III’s engine block, without struts or braces. This direct mounting considerably reduces vibration at the compressor and contributes to the overall reduction in noise, vibration and harshness.


• Ultra-fast oxygen sensors
Oxygen sensors are located where the exhaust manifold runners meet, before and after the catalytic converter. They measure oxygen levels going into and out of the catalytic converter. Using readings from both sensors, the PCM manages various engine operations in a fashion that minimizes exhaust emissions. The ultra-fast sensors allow the exhaust system to achieve this "closed loop" operation in matter of seconds, effectively monitoring oxygen levels before and after the catalytic converter for maximum emissions reduction.


• Single close-coupled catalytic converter
The 3800 Series III features a more efficient dual-brick, close-coupled catalytic converter that is mounted closer to the engine than on Series II engines. So positioned, the catalytic converter achieves light-off – the temperature at which exhaust emissions are most efficiently oxidized – more quickly. This considerably lowers emissions during cold starts.

[This message has been edited by 86fieroEarl (edited 09-03-2006).]

now i know the gen 5 is just a sc. is there a real difference between a ser. I or II.

gold87 heres a 3800sc install--alot of reading and pics--I think it was a earlier 96 3800Sc --none the less , this will give you a idea of whats involved, hope it helps..
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/053213.html

OK, here it goes

First of all blowers go like this. each style greatly improved on the previous model, almost excatly doubling in preformance each time.

series 1 = m90 gen1
series 2 = m90 gen3
series 3 = m90 gen5

The 97-98's first of all had inferior AIR BOXES and not throttle bodies. The maf sensors are slightly different so they reduce flow incredibly insignificantly, and completly invisible in stock aplications.

The series 1 series 2 are quite different, they share almost no parts internally or externally, and use a very very poor blower in comparison to the series 2 blower. The series 2 and series 3 are actually quite similar. The blocks are identical, mostly, but the series 3 utilizes fancy connecting rods. The heads are perfectly identical in the series 2/3 motors. The only huge differeance between these motors is the actual trottle body itself, THERE IS NO THROTTLE CABLE. That presents a huge problem when it comes to swapping it into another car, but I guess people are having some sucess now.

My favorite setup right now for the 3800 would be a 98-03 series 2 supercharged motor, with a matching trans and wiring harness/pcm. From there you can put the Gen5 blower on, using some cheap adapters readily available, or you could make your own, its just for the throttle body. This setup alone will make arguably make more horsepower than the seires 3 motor, and would be cake to swap into your fiero.

In conclution, I suggest that you stay away from doing a stock series 3 swap, as you are really asking for a load of trouble. There is no known benifit from using wiring or the transmissions off of the series 3 motors, and ther is also no known way to swap the series 3 wiring onto a manual trans (ask loyde at fast fieros about conferming that as it may of been done). All of the 20 extra horsepower that the series 3 is rated at comes from the gen5 blower, and actually it isnt as strong as it could be, as it was quite detuned by GM so you could use low octane gas. The gains you would see from putting a gen5 blower onto a series2 motor would be extremely noticible, they are quite amazing and we are just now finding the limits of what they can do in the high preformance world.

signature, link to my swap.

------------------

It's Done!!
Time to iron out the kinks.....

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/072877.html

it looks like i ant to get a 97-04 gtp motor and use a ser III blower. and a computer and harness from a 97-04 gtp. use a throttle body from a 99-04. i will also be using the 5 speed getrag. that sound about right?

If your going to use the gen5 blower, and go through the mild trouble of hooking that up, most guys just convert to the much much much better northstar throttle body.

I forgot to add that, you will need to do some mild tuning, and have a decent amount of fabrication skills to put the gen5 on at all, its honestly nothing compared to puting the motor in in the first place, but it doesnt tecnicly go right on. The series2 intake manifold can be used, it is commonly done, but the series3 manifold is has a larger opening and which would require a small amount of modification to the series2 intake. They bolt to the engine identicaly, so most people use the series 3 manifold.

Also, the intake diameter is much larger on the blower where it bolts to the throttle body, so you really cant use the stock throttle body off of any of the 3800's(the one that normaly bolts to it is fully electronic so thats out of the picture entirely) so thats why you should look into the northstar.

This conversion is being done almost daily right now in the gtp world, so head over to clubgp.com to check that out.

I wanted to add again that you shouldnt really decide much based on the 97-98 / 99+ throttle bodies as the differances are EXTREMELY small. The only differeance is the style of the maf sensor, and honestly 90% of the people that do the whole gen5 conversion use maf sensors pulled from 98/97 TB's due to their accuracy and the way they mount into the northstars.

Ultimatly, throttle bodies dont hurt you untill they are maxed out for the amount of air you are trying to take in. The maf sensor will tell you how your motor is doing in this sence, and if you need to lower your maf numbers, than a larger throttle body can be put on.


I wanted to also add that the 97's are somthing you normally want to stay away from. More so you want to stay away from the wiring harness, as it is very inferior to the latter years, many people in the GTP world do conversions to latter wiring if they have 97's. The heads, yes, they have some strange rumor that they are prone to cracking, but the only thing that really conserns 99% of all 97 owners is the fact you cant use the plentiful and cheap WS6 valvesprings that people commonly upgrade to when doing valvetrain modifications.

I used a 97 block in my situation because it was extremely low miles, commonly you cant find any older GTP motors in the low mile bracket. I now own 2 97 series2 3800 cars, neither have cracked heads.

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 09-05-2006).]

thanks for your help darkhorizon. you helped lead me in the right dirrection to look for the parts i need to do my swap. thanks again.

quote Originally posted by gold87: it looks like i ant to get a 97-04 gtp motor and use a ser III blower. and a computer and harness from a 97-04 gtp. use a throttle body from a 99-04. i will also be using the 5 speed getrag. that sound about right?

If you really live in San Diego and you want the car to be street legal/registered in CA the manual tranny is a no go. To be smogged it's got to be an automatic. And be careful of mixing and matching parts in CA. If the computer says it should have an electronic throttle and you change it to a mechanical version it likely won't pass smog.

[This message has been edited by Fierari (edited 09-05-2006).]

quote If the computer says it should have an electronic throttle and you change it to a mechanical version it likely won't pass smog.

Most likely vice versa. I do not know the first thing about rules in cali, but the northstar swap would be quite obvious, as a large alum adapter plate is commonly used.

I know that if you left all the exhaust scrubbers in (the second o2 sensor and the cat converter), then passing smog would be a cakewalk. asuming they dont find dumb rules to screw you with.

i am getting ohio plates so i will not have to deal with the rule here in cali. i am in th navy so it should not be that hard to get the plate. ohio also just dropped there smog rules so that helps me out even more.

quote Originally posted by PBJ: 04 to present series III 3800 s/c out of a w body. Next, 99 upto 03 again out of a W body, ie grand prix or regal. The only real preference with W body is the oil filter adaptor is better suited to clear the cradle. Edit, 97 or 98 are not a poor choice either just would have to upgrade the Throttle body, thats all. Pete

Ok...I have been trying to sort out the best 3800sc for a swap into my '86. Please correct me if I am wrong.

The series II and series III would be a better choice than the series I.

The series II out of the Buick Regals and the Grand Prixs are the exact same engine as in the other cars except that the oil filter adapter clears the cradle completely (or just clears it better than the engines from the other cars) Im guessing that you could just buy and change the oil filter adapter if you were using an engine from a car other than the Regal or Grand Prix.


The series III engines are refined a bit more, using a little better quality parts and pulling 20 more HP from them. I know that the throttle on these is electrical and Ryan has an adapter for using a N* throttle body on the 3800sc.
........Would this solve the electrical throttle problem?
........Would the N* throttle body on a series II flow better? Enough to be worth the trouble to swap it?

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: In conclution, I suggest that you stay away from doing a stock series 3 swap, as you are really asking for a load of trouble. There is no known benifit from using wiring or the transmissions off of the series 3 motors, and ther is also no known way to swap the series 3 wiring onto a manual trans (ask loyde at fast fieros about conferming that as it may of been done).

I do have a Manual transmission and I dont believe I want to get into any more wiring issues than we already have to with these swaps.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: All of the 20 extra horsepower that the series 3 is rated at comes from the gen5 blower, and actually it isnt as strong as it could be, as it was quite detuned by GM so you could use low octane gas. The gains you would see from putting a gen5 blower onto a series2 motor would be extremely noticible, they are quite amazing and we are just now finding the limits of what they can do in the high preformance world.

.....Would the difference be that noticable (20hp)?

.....What would you need to do to get a bit more from it if it were (detuned) and run higher octaine gas?

.....Or would I just be better off to simply use a series II from an '03 Regal or Grand Prix for an easier, dependable swap?
Thanks for the help,
Steve


Edit: Also do you use the 3800 A/C compressor or the Fieros?
Thanks again

[This message has been edited by JumpStart (edited 12-21-2006).]

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: OK, here it goes First of all blowers go like this. each style greatly improved on the previous model, almost excatly doubling in preformance each time. series 1 = m90 gen1 series 2 = m90 gen3 series 3 = m90 gen5

no.. no.. no.. m62 = series 1, same blower found on the cobalt SS except probably updated a lil more as like the 97-03 blower to the 04 blowers on the GTP

O yea I sorta misstyped that M90 gen1 thing sorry about that. I was trying to say that was sorta like the gen1 m90 or somthing idk.

Because you are going with a manual, and you seem quite interested in the series 3 setup I suggest this.

Get a complete L32 setup minus a trans. (the L32 is the engine code for a s3 supercharged) From there, you can get the wiring setup and PCM from a 98-02 L67 and run that on top. The only thing you would really have to do is change from the 32# injectors found on the L32 to the 36# injectors found on the series2, L67.

As far as the difference, low_key screwed that all up, The gen5 blower is absolutely great and I would say there is alot of growth availible in that alone. The L32 bottom end is basicly not really stronger or weaker than the L67, as noone really breaks l67's on any occasion as it is.

Going with a northstar TB is a great idea, but you are going to have to get some tuning done for that. Not a big deal most anyone with a tuner will easily do it for you, and it doesnt take much adjusting. If it was just a stock motor with a stock TB then I wouldnt do it as your first mod, but its easy and doesnt hurt.

And yes the oil fliter adapters are held on by 4 bolts, and they have a reuseable gasket. In my manual swap I actually used a hbody (bonneville park ave ect.) which people said wouldnt work.

quote Originally posted by LoW_KeY: you can yup, just switch the the pulley to I think a 6 groove? think fieros is a 5 if I remember right.

Is there anyway to use the compressor for the 3800 and hook it to the rest of the Fiero A/C system? My Fiero compressor is gone bye-bye.

quote Originally posted by JumpStart: Is there anyway to use the compressor for the 3800 and hook it to the rest of the Fiero A/C system? My Fiero compressor is gone bye-bye.

someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe you can use it. Just be sure to wire up the harness for the 3800 compressor.

I`m using the 3800 compressor...Shouldn`t be a problem...

The only weird thing about hoooking up a 3800 ac compreessor is the fittings.

There are a few different styles of hoses that I have determined to come on cars randomly ( just havent found a pattern). There are a kind that works sorta, and a kind that requires some decent amount of modification to work. The biggest thing is you really just have to get a r12-r134 a conversion kit, which is like $8.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: If your going to use the gen5 blower, and go through the mild trouble of hooking that up, most guys just convert to the much much much better northstar throttle body. I forgot to add that, you will need to do some mild tuning, and have a decent amount of fabrication skills to put the gen5 on at all, its honestly nothing compared to puting the motor in in the first place, but it doesnt tecnicly go right on. The series2 intake manifold can be used, it is commonly done, but the series3 manifold is has a larger opening and which would require a small amount of modification to the series2 intake. They bolt to the engine identicaly, so most people use the series 3 manifold. Also, the intake diameter is much larger on the blower where it bolts to the throttle body, so you really cant use the stock throttle body off of any of the 3800's(the one that normaly bolts to it is fully electronic so thats out of the picture entirely) so thats why you should look into the northstar. This conversion is being done almost daily right now in the gtp world, so head over to clubgp.com to check that out. I wanted to add again that you shouldnt really decide much based on the 97-98 / 99+ throttle bodies as the differances are EXTREMELY small. The only differeance is the style of the maf sensor, and honestly 90% of the people that do the whole gen5 conversion use maf sensors pulled from 98/97 TB's due to their accuracy and the way they mount into the northstars. Ultimatly, throttle bodies dont hurt you untill they are maxed out for the amount of air you are trying to take in. The maf sensor will tell you how your motor is doing in this sence, and if you need to lower your maf numbers, than a larger throttle body can be put on. I wanted to also add that the 97's are somthing you normally want to stay away from. More so you want to stay away from the wiring harness, as it is very inferior to the latter years, many people in the GTP world do conversions to latter wiring if they have 97's. The heads, yes, they have some strange rumor that they are prone to cracking, but the only thing that really conserns 99% of all 97 owners is the fact you cant use the plentiful and cheap WS6 valvesprings that people commonly upgrade to when doing valvetrain modifications. I used a 97 block in my situation because it was extremely low miles, commonly you cant find any older GTP motors in the low mile bracket. I now own 2 97 series2 3800 cars, neither have cracked heads.

What's the disavantages for using the 97 computer and wireharness ? I thought OBD 2 was OBD 2, Is it the programing ?


Asking because I use a 97 harness and computer.

it is the same basicly, just the 97 stuff was mostly just a prototype for the latter years where they fixed a few little things and added extra bits of funtionallity.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Because you are going with a manual, and you seem quite interested in the series 3 setup I suggest this. Get a complete L32 setup minus a trans. (the L32 is the engine code for a s3 supercharged) From there, you can get the wiring setup and PCM from a 98-02 L67 and run that on top. The only thing you would really have to do is change from the 32# injectors found on the L32 to the 36# injectors found on the series2, L67. Going with a northstar TB is a great idea, but you are going to have to get some tuning done for that. Not a big deal most anyone with a tuner will easily do it for you, and it doesnt take much adjusting. If it was just a stock motor with a stock TB then I wouldnt do it as your first mod, but its easy and doesnt hurt.

This doesnt seem to be much more trouble to put in a series 3 than a series 2. If not then why are more people not doing the series 3 swap?
Just wondering because in general, the series3 would have less miles on them at this point.

Edit: Also any ideas on using the LY7 3600 DOHC V6 since it will be replacing the 3800 in the near future?
Steve

[This message has been edited by JumpStart (edited 04-17-2007).]

Not true in all counties. Check your county rules first. I live in Lorain County and smog checks are required.

**Edit** - I have a 3800 NA from a 99 Monte Carlo and I passed smog just fine.

quote Originally posted by gold87: i am getting ohio plates so i will not have to deal with the rule here in cali. i am in th navy so it should not be that hard to get the plate. ohio also just dropped there smog rules so that helps me out even more.

[This message has been edited by wantafiero (edited 04-17-2007).]

Reall good and informative thread.
Thank you all