I am not sure if the Olds and Buick follow the same identification location but on the Pontiac block on the driver's side near the bottom and towards the front you will see the raised numbers of 455 representing the c.i.d. of the block.
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10:18 PM
buddycraigg Member
Posts: 13620 From: kansas city, mo Registered: Jul 2002
owner said the dist is in the front and "sits at an angle" ???? he was told it was a buick
also its mated to an auto trans that has a large "C4" stamped on the side... I havent seen a ford c4 in a while to remember but is that possible that its a ford C4 or dod a GM trans have that???
[This message has been edited by NSAN1T (edited 01-22-2007).]
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10:48 PM
3084me Member
Posts: 1035 From: Bucks County, PA Registered: Apr 2005
Distributor's are in the rear on all by the way). The engine you describe sound's like a Buick. (I don't believe Ford C4's actually have a C4 on the trans but it's been a very long time since I've been into Fords).
IF I remember correctly, a C4 Letter code may reference to a GM 300 Super Turbine which is pre 1968 - used by - You guessed it . . . Buick. (Not to be confused with Turbo Hydramatic
(most people think the small blocks look like big blocks especially if you are into SBC's or Ford Small Blocks)
Easiest way to ID an OLDS :
Just remember: LETTERS = BIG BLOCK (400 - 425, 455)
Facing the front of the engine, at the top surface of the timing chain area, and to the left of the oil fill tube, there is a code about 1.5" high followed by the casting number.
A letter indicates a big block, a number indicates a small block.
Big blocks have a little hump in that area, whereas the small blocks are flat the whole way across.
396021 F" or "396021 Fa are the most common "average Big Big Blocks. Nothing Fancy. These are your run of the mill 190hp Emission bogged Big Blocks for the most parts. (however, they can be built very, VERY Nice with correct heads.
Speaking of Heads:
Check the heads for a letter (Big Block) or Number - (Small Block)
Read the letter at the lower left corner of the head, near the #1 or #8 spark plug hole, a letter about 1.5" high indicates a big block, while a number indicates a small block.
Most small blocks will read 3, 4, 5, 5a, 6, 7 and 8
Big blocks will be A, B, D, DA, E, F etc. All the way up to K and Ka
(Good luck finding a 455 with D's, E's and F's (especially E's and F's which are rare. - In fact, It's common for "seedy people" to machine the letter "E" head to make it look like an "F" head. (which can run you $2500 or so per pair and higher).
442's, Hurst/Olds pre 1970 (1968-1970) use the D, E, F Heads. These are very rare and now almost impossible to find unless you have a large wallet.
PS. Pontiac 455's look very similar to Olds 455's. I've had a few of those as well. Distributor is also in the rear.
Hope that helps.
------------------ I'm not driving too fast, . . . I'm flying too low.
[This message has been edited by 3084me (edited 01-22-2007).]
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11:04 PM
NSAN1T Member
Posts: 698 From: Marble Falls, Texas, USA Registered: Mar 2002
I've never been that much into Buick's but (depending on year), those motors can be down right brutal if built correctly. The 79 Trans-Am in my sig spent most of the 90's with my 1969 Olds 455 (punched to 467cid) - and E heads. A "nice" brutal 10.80 quarter mile car with no NOS and a low 10 car with the bottle..
Try doing a search for Buick Grand Sport , Buick GS Stage 1 and GS stage 2 to get some ideas. While not as cheap to build as a BBC for example, a Big Block Buick or Olds (or Chevy) - depending on year (pre 73 usually) is the kind of motor that you can build to a low - mid 11sec car with just a cam, decent intake, headers and Holley 850. For the Buick, (like the Olds), I'd stay with an ISKY Cam. I've had great luck getting my 79 T/A into the 10's and the ISKY grinds have been proven since the 70's Big Blocks have been around. They really bring out the low end that these engines are known for.
I'd let some owner who needs an OEM trans use the 300 (if that's what it turns out to be. You may be able to get a few dollars on E-bay depending on the code.) For the stock or mild big block a Built TH-350 is "ok" but if you are planning to do some Earth Pounding runs down the track, a 400 is the way to go. (they also fit perfect in the T/A with the proper Driveshaft with hardly any mods and the B.O.P (Buick Olds Pontiac) Bolt Pattern 400's are easier to find and a bit cheaper.
As far as the question about the 350 or 400. You certainly build a potent 350 or 400 as well but I'm a die hard big block guy. If you have never owned a big block, you are in for a real treat. Although others have their preferences, Building a 500+ HP Big Block is not that difficult (or expensive) and I feel that dollar for dollar, they are certainly worth it. Especially if you can fit them into your car - which you can. The low end power is such a unique feel compared to the average small block. Old technology? Yes they are, but they are the old school "monsters" that gave meaning to the saying "there is no replacement for displacement".
Thanks for the +'s, I'm not sure how the ratings actually show up. Does anyone know?? I don't seem to have one under my profile. ------------------ I'm not driving too fast, . . . I'm flying too low.
[This message has been edited by 3084me (edited 01-23-2007).]
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11:56 PM
Jan 23rd, 2007
NSAN1T Member
Posts: 698 From: Marble Falls, Texas, USA Registered: Mar 2002
I'm assuming the trans in the 78 Formula right now is a th350, but wont know untill i take full possesion of the car. I dont know if it was the oringinal trans hooked up to the 400 that came in the car or if the previous owner that swapped the 400 to 305 switched the trans too..
I dont know about making any "earth pounding" runs anytime soon. but i wouldnt mind
in the mean time I'm looking at the possability of swapping the intake and cam on the 305 for somethine rated idle or 1500 to around 6k rpm and then swapping them to a 350 race built block when i swap it..
the 455 needs a rebuild but i haven't looked into the costs of that yet..
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12:09 AM
NSAN1T Member
Posts: 698 From: Marble Falls, Texas, USA Registered: Mar 2002
the Turbine 300 taken from Wikipedia Design The ST300 had a three-element torque converter, a front and rear multiple-disc clutch pack, and a compound planetary gearset with front and reverse brake bands. The unit was cooled with a small auxiliary oil cooler located beneath the engine radiator. It had a die cast aluminum case, and weighed 152 lb (69 kg).
It was programmed to start in low gear, providing a gear ratio of 1.765:1 plus the additional low-speed multiplication of the torque converter. The shift pattern was Park-Reverse-Neutral-Drive-Low. In Drive at full throttle, it would upshift from first to second at 60-65 mph (99-104 km/h).
From 1964 to 1967 Buick and Oldsmobile versions of this transmission used a torque converter with a variable-pitch stator called Switch-Pitch by Buick and Variable Vane by Olds. The stator blades moved from high to low position by an electrical solenoid and a stator valve, controlled by a switch on the throttle linkage. At light to medium throttle, the stator blades were at 32°, providing a torque multiplication of 1.8:1 and a converter stall speed of approximately 1800 rpm. At two-thirds to full throttle, the blades switched to the 51° high position, giving torque multiplication of 2.45:1 and a stall speed of approximately 2300 rpm. The blades were also set to the high position at idle to limit creep when stopped in Drive.
The variable-pitch torque converter was also used with the early Turbo Hydramatic 400s in Buicks, Cadillacs and Oldsmobiles.
The variable-pitch stator was dropped after 1967. Pontiac transmissions did not use this feature.
History The Super Turbine 300 (Jetaway) was introduced for the 1964 model year to replace the earlier Buick Dynaflow and Oldsmobile/Pontiac Roto Hydramatic automatics. It was the only automatic offered on GM A platform cars (Buick Skylark, Oldsmobile Cutlass, and Pontiac Tempest) through 1967, and was available on the full-sized Buick LeSabre and Oldsmobile Jetstar 88 as a cheaper alternative to the three-speed Turbo-Hydramatic. From 1967 to 1969, the two-speed automatic was also available on the sporty Pontiac Firebird with the overhead cam six-cylinder (230 and 250 cubic inches) or small V8 engines (326 and 350 cubic inches).
The Super Turbine 300 was discontinued entirely after the 1969 model year in favor of the TH400 and lighter TH350 Turbo-Hydramatic, the latter using the Super Turbine 300's tailhousing.
Super Turbine 300s were the first GM automatics to incorporate multi-case bellhousings (ST300s were bolted behind BOP powerplants along with the Chevrolet inline six) - which were later used with its successors - the THM350 and THM2004R overdrive
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12:28 AM
3084me Member
Posts: 1035 From: Bucks County, PA Registered: Apr 2005
I've been into Olds since before I've been driving (now driving 23 years - Yikes I'm getting old fast) and I never realized that the Turbine 300 (used by Buick) was the same as the Olds Jetaway. Never really thought about it. Being that it came from Wikopedia , I'd llike to verify just to be sure, but that would actually make sense. From what I remember, the Switch Pitch converter was not used by Pontiac so that description would seem to make sense as well.
My first Turbo 400 was a Switch Pitch.... and man, did that have a unique feel to it.
------------------ I'm not driving too fast, . . . I'm flying too low.
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11:27 AM
NSAN1T Member
Posts: 698 From: Marble Falls, Texas, USA Registered: Mar 2002
I've been driving since i was 8 so I'm almost to 20 years of driving myself LOL grew up on a ranch..
so.. if it is indeed a ST300... is it worth anything at all?? or is it mostly a collector item if you can find anyone who wants one for originality?
is it worth anything driving wise?
well I know the engine is a Buick 455, signed on at v8buick.com to try to get more info on it.. still dont know if I want to try it or not... the massive hp/tq numbers possible are sweet but I keep seeing $$ signs on even the smallest thing like a engine rebuild kit.
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02:22 PM
PFF
System Bot
buddycraigg Member
Posts: 13620 From: kansas city, mo Registered: Jul 2002
Get the engine regardless. If it's an inexpensive purchase, you can always resell it to somebody as 455's in general are getting harder and harder to find.
I'm pretty sure that this applies to all BOP (Buick, Olds, Pontiac) engines. There is no "big block/small block" with Pontiac engines. That is a Chevy-ism. What are listed as Big Block in the previous posting are actually "big journal" engines (3.25 in) What are listed as Small Block are actually "small journal" engines (3 in)
The blocks are very similar in size and weight. Depending on year of production, you can swap parts across from the big journal engines to small and vice versa. (You do see some issues with valve clearances when you put big heads on small, etc...) The nice thing is that you can swap a stock 326 for a 455 and not have to worry about upgrading the suspension. If it came with a Muncie 4speed or Th400, you don't have to worry about adapting or replacing the trans when you swap engines.
------------------ Kendall (Icelander) Whitlatch '85 Fiero 2M4 - 5spd Isuzu '67 LeMans/GTO clone 6.5 litre TH400 All the rest aren't Pontiacs, so what does it matter?
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03:13 PM
NSAN1T Member
Posts: 698 From: Marble Falls, Texas, USA Registered: Mar 2002
buick use many different big blocks in the 60's to 70's nailheads named for the small valves to 66 in 364 up to 425 then a 400 to 430 motor 67 to 69 then a thin wall 455 70 to 76 the 455 have forged guts and are the lightest big blocks made date codes will tell the year and casting codes the head type 70 are best then 71 later motors are low compression smog victoms
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
$50 for engine and trans. so yeah I'm buying it.. its just a hard decision on WHAT to do with it. LOL
what kinda hp do you think it had?
depends on the year made two or 4 barrel carb if it has the original air cleaner cover the number on it is the tork rateing not hp but they are related
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
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04:05 PM
buddycraigg Member
Posts: 13620 From: kansas city, mo Registered: Jul 2002
BTW - my 70 Pontiac 455 has 455 cast on the block, near the cyl 2 or 4, forget which side it's on also, believe you can tell by the color if hasn't been repainted - should be Pontiac blue
Yes, at 50 bucks, can't pass it up - i wouldn't sell mine for that!
