I DID NOT MEAN TO START SUCH A DISCUSSION!! I JUST WANTED A UNIQUE FIERO THAT WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO BE TOUCHED BY EVEN THE MOST EXPENSIVE EXOTIC SPORTS CAR. AND I THINK WITH 469 HP NOTHING WOULD BE ABLE TO LAUNCH LIKE IT OR KEEP UP WITH IT. AND NO ONE HAS DONE THAT YET-4.4L VVT IN A FIERO. WITH MY JUNK 2.8 IT WOULD CHIRP THE TIRES AND TAKE OFF. AND THAT IS FROM DROPPING THE CLUTCH AT 3000 RPM. AND MAYBE THAT COULD EXPLAIN WHY I HAVE A SPUN ROD BEARING?!? I LIKE TO DRIVE HARD.

quote Originally posted by AJxtcman: LS2-edit supports: 2007 cars Corvette LS2 and LS7 engines Pontiac Solstice LE5 Cadillac STS, CTS-V, DTS, XLR Saturn Aura, Sky Cadillac CTS-V LS2 Chevrolet Impala/Monte Carlo SS LS4 Pontiac Grand Prix GXP LS4 Chevrolet Cobalt LE5 Saturn ION LE5 Pontiac G6 LE5 Pontiac Pursuit LE5 Chevrolet Malibu/Malibu Maxx SS LZ9 Buick Lucerne, Lacrosse Pontiac G6 LZ9

If they support the LC3 4.4L SC N*, why don't they list an application vehicle in their list? (e.g. XLR-V, STS-V, etc)

quote Originally posted by fieroboy_IL: I DID NOT MEAN TO START SUCH A DISCUSSION!! I JUST WANTED A UNIQUE FIERO THAT WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO BE TOUCHED BY EVEN THE MOST EXPENSIVE EXOTIC SPORTS CAR. AND I THINK WITH 469 HP NOTHING WOULD BE ABLE TO LAUNCH LIKE IT OR KEEP UP WITH IT. AND NO ONE HAS DONE THAT YET-4.4L VVT IN A FIERO. WITH MY JUNK 2.8 IT WOULD CHIRP THE TIRES AND TAKE OFF. AND THAT IS FROM DROPPING THE CLUTCH AT 3000 RPM. AND MAYBE THAT COULD EXPLAIN WHY I HAVE A SPUN ROD BEARING?!? I LIKE TO DRIVE HARD.

It is a great discussion so far. I just hope you realize that being the first means doing all the sometimes expensive R&D. If you have the cash and time, go for it. If you are easily put off by problems ($$$) and need something right away, then you might want to go with a tried and true swap.

ryan.hess Are you here to help or hinder? I just wanted to know if it is possible to put a 4.4L in a Fiero. I started a great discussion, but ecms, and programming issues are not what this is about. It is helpful to know these things, but getting into a discussion with someone who is knowledgeable about the latest Cadillac info is not what should be discussed. What should be talked about is the fitment and other non electrical issues that I will encounter with such a mod. If I go with a stand alone, fully programmable ecu, then what is the problem? Fuel and spark curves can be modified to work most efficient for the use of the motor. I would like to keep items more "stock", but if I am spending all this money on the motor then why chince on the engine management?

quote Originally posted by fieroboy_IL: Yeah, I know the costs involved. I just want to be different. A 350-400 hp 3.8 s/c series III is a cheaper route, but 3.8's are old hat. Everyone is doing it. If everyone drove their Fiero's off a cliff, would you?

Don't get me wrong, I am all for it. As someone posted before though, many others have started a thread of "I'm gonna do this .." and then nothing, silence. Remember the twin Hayabusa's in a Fiero? He even bought the motors and set them in the engine compartment. Then he went off on a tangent with another car and POOF, gone. So my original post was meant to say, if you are committed and well funded, have fun. We will all cheer you on and maybe even lend a hand when able.

Hudini, I appreciate all that has been written on this subject. I am committed to doing this, if, it is possible to do it, and if there are helpful people like you out there to help me with such an extreme mod.

There will always be a car that is faster than yours so you will be touched. Then it may even happen with cars with less HP/TQ than yours that have traction control. Put a big HP/TQ engine in a Fiero (assuming you find a trany that holds it) and you will have difficulty putting power to the ground unless at the track with slicks. The Viper and Z06 Vette have 13" tires at the back for a reason and both have traction control to avoid trouble in dry or get you killed in wet pavement. Try driving one and you will see why I'm telling yo this.

quote Originally posted by fieroboy_IL: ryan.hess Are you here to help or hinder? I just wanted to know if it is possible to put a 4.4L in a Fiero. I started a great discussion, but ecms, and programming issues are not what this is about. It is helpful to know these things, but getting into a discussion with someone who is knowledgeable about the latest Cadillac info is not what should be discussed. What should be talked about is the fitment and other non electrical issues that I will encounter with such a mod. If I go with a stand alone, fully programmable ecu, then what is the problem? Fuel and spark curves can be modified to work most efficient for the use of the motor. I would like to keep items more "stock", but if I am spending all this money on the motor then why chince on the engine management?

You need to be willing to explore all options at this point. Your whole project will come to a grinding halt if you can't find an aftermarket ECM capable of controlling the VVT. There might not be one available that will work here, in which case you'll be FORCED to use the factory PCM. As mentioned before, there might be problems with doing that if LS2 edit and the like aren't capable of reprogramming it to delete unnecessary functions. In short, you'll have a very expensive paper weight; at best a fiero that runs 14s.

So if by telling you there might be problems with the electrical side of it is hindering, then I guess I'm hindering progress and I'll show myself the door.

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: There will always be a car that is faster than yours so you will be touched. Then it may even happen with cars with less HP/TQ than yours that have traction control. Put a big HP/TQ engine in a Fiero (assuming you find a trany that holds it) and you will have difficulty putting power to the ground unless at the track with slicks. The Viper and Z06 Vette have 13" tires at the back for a reason and both have traction control to avoid trouble in dry or get you killed in wet pavement. Try driving one and you will see why I'm telling yo this.

With that wide of a tire, and that light of a car hydroplaning is inevitable. I will probably go with a 235 which is less than 10" and all the motor weight is on the rear end, so it should launch quicker than a Vette (t/c off). like I said before, the car launches great with the 2.8, but the motor has no nuts. and the tranny (4 spd.) is not made for the lack of power in the 2.8.

Ok, I think I understand what ryan.hess and others were talking about when referring to the PCM.

"The Northstar V-8 SC is mated to the all-new Hydra-Matic 6L80 six-speed automatic transmission – the first use of GM’s new six-speed automatic. The 6L80 – the only transmission offered on the STS-V – is one of the most technologically advanced automatic transmissions in the industry, using clutch-to-clutch operation and an advanced integrated 32-bit transmission controller to deliver smooth and precise shifts." Source: http://www.rsportscars.com/...s/cadillac_sts-v.asp

The PCM controls this transmission and ONLY this transmission. So you would either first have to find someone who could hack this PCM for a transaxle type transmission (4T80-E 4-speed or 6T70 or 6T75 6-speed) or go with a manual type transaxle like the new F40 6-speed or find another PCM that could run this motor. http://www.gminsidenews.com...php?page=trans_guide

Do you know if the VVT can be run by another PCM or maybe disabled altogether if no other way is found?
Last, have you taken any measurements to see if the engine will physically fit in the engine compartment?

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: You need to be willing to explore all options at this point. Your whole project will come to a grinding halt if you can't find an aftermarket ECM capable of controlling the VVT. There might not be one available that will work here, in which case you'll be FORCED to use the factory PCM. As mentioned before, there might be problems with doing that if LS2 edit and the like aren't capable of reprogramming it to delete unnecessary functions. In short, you'll have a very expensive paper weight; at best a fiero that runs 14s. So if by telling you there might be problems with the electrical side of it is hindering, then I guess I'm hindering progress and I'll show myself the door.

I did not mean that, but instead of being an @$$, why don't you help me out with some research of your own, and come back with some information that is helpful, instead of trying to shoot this idea down with a negative attitude. If the VVT is such a problem, then find out how much of a problem it really is, give me a solution that you know will work for my application. Instead of "...VVT...VVT....VVT!!!!...." Don't mean to be rude but I really do not like negativity. Most of the other posters have been supportive of this venture.

quote Originally posted by fieroboy_IL: I did not mean that, but instead of being an @$$, why don't you help me out with some research of your own, and come back with some information that is helpful, instead of trying to shoot this idea down with a negative attitude. If the VVT is such a problem, then find out how much of a problem it really is, give me a solution that you know will work for my application. Instead of "...VVT...VVT....VVT!!!!...." Don't mean to be rude but I really do not like negativity. Most of the other posters have been supportive of this venture.

I already sent out some emails.

Your backup plan can be the Magneti Marelli computer:
http://www.magnetimarelli.c...rol_Systems_2005.pdf

You should talk to AJ at CHRF to see specifically which of those computers he uses on the VVT engines.

The engine should fit, but there might be some difficulty rerouting the coolant lines. If you need someone to do the swap, I would take it to Will.

Alright, this may be better for your intended purpose. So, I guess the next step is finding out if the STS-V PCM can be hacked to run correctly without the 6L80 transmission physically attached. This is where the $$$ part starts. I found a company that claims to be able to tune the PCM in the STS-V: http://www.whiteautoandmedi...tent/stsvtuning.aspx

I don't know who they are or if they are reputable. Its a start though.

you say it has never been done, yet you want everyone to help you out.?

I say get off your high horse and do the foot work yourself then tell us how it is....

You know that is how it all starts, someone just getting a engine, then trial and error. you may be the heor on penocks if you do it, and do a write up on it. (with pics)

like some have said....so far this is all just "talk".

not being mean, just saying how I see it.

Good luck!

revin, I came here by recommendation from The Fiero Factory. They said that there are some very knowledgeable individuals here. I have an idea and want to get all the info or direction before I start on such an expensive journey. Everyone who has posted has been helpful in getting me in the right direction, instead of me being stranded in the desert with a blindfold on. Does that satisfy any pessimists out there? Without their knowledge and know how I would have ended up paying probably twice as much with less satisfaction.

quote Originally posted by fieroboy_IL: With that wide of a tire, and that light of a car hydroplaning is inevitable. I will probably go with a 235 which is less than 10" and all the motor weight is on the rear end, so it should launch quicker than a Vette (t/c off). like I said before, the car launches great with the 2.8, but the motor has no nuts. and the tranny (4 spd.) is not made for the lack of power in the 2.8.

I can see you haven't driven a high hp/tq car and definitely not a Fiero. I have 265 tires back on 9" rims. With 344lbs RWTQ I have no problem breaking them loose straight and don't even mention a corner. Many people think I very high hp/tq Fiero is great. I say it is a lot of fun but you can get into trouble very quickly. Why you think new cars come with stability conrols? But don't get me wrong. I'm not trying you to go into a low power option. Just so you know what yuo will get into and that 235 tires will do nothing to make it better

Let me tell ya,
I was one of the first few to do the 3800sc swap. I had very little help / info on doing the swap. trial and error? you bet! cost more than now? sure! but I did it in a way that I know and it works! better ways now? oh yeah. and I helped that come easier to some that have asked for info that I never got from anyone.
I didn't get the info I needed to complete my swap and had to use my own brain to make brackets, wire routeing, and even clutch! now everybody is doing the swap.
I am just saying, get the motor, an empty cradle and go for it! that is the best thing I can tell ya.
Sure some have come close to that engine, but don't believe everyone's thoughts. some steer ya right some steer ya left.

If all else fails, you can just sell the motor and go for something else.

get the eng., do a mock up, bust some knuckles, make plenty of notes and pics. we will help from there when a p[roblem comes up. till now, you just hear words that may or may not mean anything to you at this time.

I WAS JUST SAYING THAT WEIGHT TRANSFER TO TO REAR TIRES WOULD BE BETTER. WHAT IS IN THE REAR OF A 'VETTE BESIDES THE WEIGHT OF THE DRIVETRAIN? I AM NOT SAYING THAT A FIERO WILL BE OFF-THE-CHARTS BETTER, BUT WEIGHT TRANSFER IS THE KEY TO A GOOD LAUNCH. AS FOR CORNERING, YEAH, YOU GET THE REAR TIRES LOOSE AND IT WILL COME AROUND ON YOU. I DID THAT IN MY FIERO AT 10 MPH. AND ALL I COULD DO WAS HOLD ON 'CUS IT WAS COMIN' 'ROUND. BUT DRIVING STYLES ARE NOT WHAT WE ARE DISCUSSING, A UNIQUE ENGINE SWAP IS, SO PLEASE STAY ON SUBJECT. THANK YOU.

quote Originally posted by revin: Let me tell ya, I was one of the first few to do the 3800sc swap. I had very little help / info on doing the swap. trial and error? you bet! cost more than now? sure! but I did it in a way that I know and it works! better ways now? oh yeah. and I helped that come easier to some that have asked for info that I never got from anyone. I didn't get the info I needed to complete my swap and had to use my own brain to make brackets, wire routeing, and even clutch! now everybody is doing the swap. I am just saying, get the motor, an empty cradle and go for it! that is the best thing I can tell ya. Sure some have come close to that engine, but don't believe everyone's thoughts. some steer ya right some steer ya left. If all else fails, you can just sell the motor and go for something else. get the eng., do a mock up, bust some knuckles, make plenty of notes and pics. we will help from there when a p[roblem comes up. till now, you just hear words that may or may not mean anything to you at this time.

DO YOU KNOW LOYDE FROM FAST FIEROS? WHAT DO YOU THINK OF HIM?

quote Originally posted by fieroboy_IL: "...440 stock hp, can you imagine that? Any constructive criticism is greatly appeciated...." "...I have been told by everyone that 300 is untouchable...." "I WAS JUST SAYING THAT WEIGHT TRANSFER TO TO REAR TIRES WOULD BE BETTER. WHAT IS IN THE REAR OF A 'VETTE BESIDES THE WEIGHT OF THE DRIVETRAIN? I AM NOT SAYING THAT A FIERO WILL BE OFF-THE-CHARTS BETTER, BUT WEIGHT TRANSFER IS THE KEY TO A GOOD LAUNCH. AS FOR CORNERING, YEAH, YOU GET THE REAR TIRES LOOSE AND IT WILL COME AROUND ON YOU. I DID THAT IN MY FIERO AT 10 MPH. AND ALL I COULD DO WAS HOLD ON 'CUS IT WAS COMIN' 'ROUND. BUT DRIVING STYLES ARE NOT WHAT WE ARE DISCUSSING, A UNIQUE ENGINE SWAP IS, SO PLEASE STAY ON SUBJECT. THANK YOU.

I AM STAYING ON TOPIC BASED ON WHAT YOU ASKED. YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT A SWAP THAT COULDN'T BE TOUCHED. I'M SAYING A 300HP IS NOT AND THAT YOU WILL BE TOUCHED ANYWAY WITH ANY. AND HONESTLY LIKE SOMEONE ELSE MENTIONED I THINK THIS IS JUST A "I WANNA HAVE A BIG ENGINE IN MY CAR" THREAD THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. SORRY DUDE.

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: I AM STAYING ON TOPIC BASED ON WHAT YOU ASKED. YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT A SWAP THAT COULDN'T BE TOUCHED. I'M SAYING A 300HP IS NOT AND THAT YOU WILL BE TOUCHED ANYWAY WITH ANY. AND HONESTLY LIKE SOMEONE ELSE MENTIONED I THINK THIS IS JUST A "I WANNA HAVE A BIG ENGINE IN MY CAR" THREAD THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. SORRY DUDE.

the 300 comment was for a NA 3.4 pushrod engine. everyone says that 300 hp with that motor is impossible. I do not want a "big engine" in all actuallity I want a small engine. But can you give me reliability with a 500 hp 3.8L s/c? If there is someone out there that can give me a 500 hp 3.8L s/c, at a decent price, then I will do that. But until then I want to find out if 4.4L VVT is worth the time and effort or will I hit a brick wall at 98% done?

It seems, just from an outsider's point of view, that the PCM will be the biggest hurdle. Anything made of steel and aluminum can be fabricated by somebody somewhere for enough cash. That dang little box full of electrons cannot be fabbed, but must be hacked to your purpose or a suitable alternate used. If you can find someone to help with that, the rest is just time and money.

Fieroboy, I have no idea whether you have the $$$ to do this, but I don't think that you need all the grief that some people are giving you.

First step: do you have the cash? If you don't this discussion is moot.
Second step: The 4.4 is a Northstar. Lots of people have installed Northstars in Fieros, the mounts/transmission/axles may need to be beefed up some to handle the HP though.
The only mechanical question I would have is the height of the SC above the motor. If it's similar to the 3800 supercharger/intake, I would think you would have no problems with a stock decklid. If it's taller, you might need a scoop.
Third step: Electrical/Electronics. Basically, you can physically mount anything into anything if you cut/modify/fabricate etc etc enough. The heart of the swap is going to be the electronics and I see that some are pointing you in the right driection, but remember that the electronics are going to determine whether you actually get that 469 HP or not.

FOR ANYONE OUT THERE REPLYING TO THIS THREAD: GO TO THE VERY FIRST POST AND RESPOND TO THAT. DO NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT WEIGHT TRANSFER, SUSPENSION, AND/OR TIRE CHOICE. THIS IS NOT ABOUT THAT, THIS IS ABOUT THE PROBABILITY OF BEING ABLE TO SUCCESSFULLY PUT A CADILLAC 4.4L VVT IN A FIERO. I WILL NOT RESPOND TO ANYONE WHO DOES NOT HAVE PRODUCTIVE INFO ON THIS INSTALL.----fieroboy_IL

Wow! I guess I hear an echo. Hudini said almost exactly the same thing as i did while my response was sitting on my computer. When I finally posted it, I saw what he said. Whoa!

quote Originally posted by niemann99: Fieroboy, I have no idea whether you have the $$$ to do this, but I don't think that you need all the grief that some people are giving you. First step: do you have the cash? If you don't this discussion is moot. Second step: The 4.4 is a Northstar. Lots of people have installed Northstars in Fieros, the mounts/transmission/axles may need to be beefed up some to handle the HP though. The only mechanical question I would have is the height of the SC above the motor. If it's similar to the 3800 supercharger/intake, I would think you would have no problems with a stock decklid. If it's taller, you might need a scoop. Third step: Electrical/Electronics. Basically, you can physically mount anything into anything if you cut/modify/fabricate etc etc enough. The heart of the swap is going to be the electronics and I see that some are pointing you in the right driection, but remember that the electronics are going to determine whether you actually get that 469 HP or not.

Thank you, niemann99 for your comments. If this is possible, I do have the cash. And I appreciate your comments and commend you on not shooting down this idea like others have been, and they know who they are.

quote Originally posted by revin: You really don't want a 350??? heh kids!

This is a little off topic for this thread, so I apologize, but what is the transaxle used in this installation?

------------------
Daviero - 88 N* GT

quote Originally posted by fieroboy_IL: ryan, how do I contact CHRF? And what do they do?

www.chrfab.com

quote Originally posted by fieroboy_IL: Would anyone out there be interested in trying to put a 4.4L S/C Cadillac STS-V motor in a Fiero? I live in central IL. So anyone within 300 miles of I-80/I-39 interchange please give me a shout.

I would be more than willing to do this. Ever since this engine came out I have been dreaming about having the opportunity to do this swap. The biggest hurdle (PCM programming) already sounds like it can be overcome. The only remaining question will be cost. No doubt this will probably end up being one of the most expensive swaps ever done to a Fiero. But it is something I am confident I can pull off. Contact me via email or PM and we can discuss this further.

-ryan

------------------
power corrupts. absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Custom Computer Tuning | Engine Conversions | Turbocharging | www.gmtuners.com

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: If they support the LC3 4.4L SC N*, why don't they list an application vehicle in their list? (e.g. XLR-V, STS-V, etc)

Ryan it is listed! open your eyes!
2007 cars
Cadillac STS
4.4L Supercharged Northstar
Also for 07 STS
LZ4 3.6L V6
4.4L Supercharged Northstar
4.6L Northstar
4.6L RWD
Ryan do some research first. See what is out before you speak. Is your PC a commodore 64? The PCM you use is not to far from it! IT is old and slow and even has a prom or memcal. By the way how many STS, CTS, XLR V series have you driven. I have a CTS V in my stall currently. I just can't comprehend your thinking on this subject.

quote Originally posted by fieroboy_IL: I WILL NOT RESPOND TO ANYONE WHO DOES NOT HAVE PRODUCTIVE INFO ON THIS INSTALL.----fieroboy_IL

I don't blame you for the sentiment. That said, 450+ hp has to be considered in terms of not just the install, but required components to withstand the torque of the monster you are creating. You have to have a plan for axles that will take it, and you may need to beef up the chassis. The tranny choice is a huge issue. You can use the Cadillac electronics and still get a monstrous amount of power, but the tranny and axles are really gonna matter.

If you talk to PBJ, or Rockcrawl, or Archie, these guys have installed higher hp engines and know the limitations they are dealing with. I say go for it, but do your homework so that you have a reliable platform when you are done.

BTW that longitudinal in the pic probably has the Toronado tranny.

Arn

quote Originally posted by AJxtcman: Ryan it is listed! open your eyes! 2007 cars Cadillac STS 4.4L Supercharged Northstar Also for 07 STS LZ4 3.6L V6 4.4L Supercharged Northstar 4.6L Northstar 4.6L RWD

They list the engine, not the car. What does that mean???? open your eyes!

quote Originally posted by AJxtcman: Is your PC a commodore 64? The PCM you use is not to far from it! IT is old and slow and even has a prom or memcal.

It may be old and slow, but it's faster than yours, which last I saw, hasn't even run yet.

And don't get me wrong- using the factory PCM should be option #1 if it can be done. Factory PCMs are ALWAYS better than aftermarket computers.

I drove my car home from the dealer. I will take it back soon and start on the interior.

Thats my V8 Trailblazer. Nav, leather, DVD system.
next is my next project. 56 TR3 6.0L crate engine.

Can't wait to see dyno results

well if ANYONE tries to tackle this, please do a build thread.. id love to see this happen