A TR3 with a 6 liter? That would be a very wild ride.

Arn

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: I would be more than willing to do this. Ever since this engine came out I have been dreaming about having the opportunity to do this swap. The biggest hurdle (PCM programming) already sounds like it can be overcome. The only remaining question will be cost. No doubt this will probably end up being one of the most expensive swaps ever done to a Fiero. But it is something I am confident I can pull off. Contact me via email or PM and we can discuss this further. -ryan

fieroboy_IL, Ryan (darthfiero) did my 3800sc install. I will tell you that it was nothing but "A1" quality and professional work!! Contact him and you will not be disapponited with not only his work, but his willingness to keep you informed on every aspect of the build.

[This message has been edited by dizmon_85GT (edited 02-07-2007).]

Doing this swap with the 4.4 is kinda like doing a 4.6 swap 5 years ago. Not much info on the subject a few guys who did it but weren't willing to share ideas and a few guys with a determination to do the project without spending a boatload of money. Having practical caddy dealership experience and availibility of caddy factory info would be a huge asset when working with the ECM. As far as the mechanicals such as fitting the engine, making mounts and routeing hoses etc. would not be a huge problem. If I have read correctly Caddy uses a separate ECM to control the trans. So then just programming the engine to run without seeing all the other control modules would be the big problem. Early on this was the same problem with the 4.6 swap doing away with the torque management that told the trans to strart in second gear if the traction control ecm was not detected. If the trans is truly a seperate ecm then the prospect of doing this swap should come down to weather the engine ecm could be programmed to not worry about seeing the rest of the controllers.

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Signature courtesy of MinnGreen.

2006 Cadillac STS
Transmission General Description
The planetary gear sets provide the 6 forward gear ratios and reverse. Changing gear ratios is fully automatic and is accomplished through the use of a transmission control module (TCM) located inside the transmission. The TCM receives and monitors various electronic sensor inputs and uses this information to shift the transmission at the optimum time.

The TCM commands shift solenoids and variable bleed pressure control solenoids to control shift timing and feel. The TCM also controls the apply and release of the torque converter clutch which allows the engine to deliver the maximum fuel efficiency without sacrificing vehicle performance. All the solenoids, including the TCM, are packaged into a self-contained control solenoid valve assembly.

I just looked up the PCM connectors and found the same connectors are used on STS V and a 2006 G6 with a F40 trans. I will double check the PCM part#, but from what I have read this is the same PCM. The F40 trans has or is getting the global bellhousing bolt pattern and the 4.4L is also from what I was told in training. The starter is still under the intercooler.

Say AJxtcman do you know if the intake/intercooler will fit a 4.6? might be cool to mount that supercharger setup to a 4.6 and pulley it for less boost.

quote Originally posted by fieroboy_IL: ryan.hess Are you here to help or hinder? I just wanted to know if it is possible to put a 4.4L in a Fiero. I started a great discussion, but ecms, and programming issues are not what this is about. It is helpful to know these things, but getting into a discussion with someone who is knowledgeable about the latest Cadillac info is not what should be discussed. What should be talked about is the fitment and other non electrical issues that I will encounter with such a mod. If I go with a stand alone, fully programmable ecu, then what is the problem? Fuel and spark curves can be modified to work most efficient for the use of the motor. I would like to keep items more "stock", but if I am spending all this money on the motor then why chince on the engine management?

quote Originally posted by fieroboy_IL: I did not mean that, but instead of being an @$$, why don't you help me out with some research of your own, and come back with some information that is helpful, instead of trying to shoot this idea down with a negative attitude. If the VVT is such a problem, then find out how much of a problem it really is, give me a solution that you know will work for my application. Instead of "...VVT...VVT....VVT!!!!...." Don't mean to be rude but I really do not like negativity. Most of the other posters have been supportive of this venture.

quote Originally posted by fieroboy_IL: FOR ANYONE OUT THERE REPLYING TO THIS THREAD: GO TO THE VERY FIRST POST AND RESPOND TO THAT. DO NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT WEIGHT TRANSFER, SUSPENSION, AND/OR TIRE CHOICE. THIS IS NOT ABOUT THAT, THIS IS ABOUT THE PROBABILITY OF BEING ABLE TO SUCCESSFULLY PUT A CADILLAC 4.4L VVT IN A FIERO. I WILL NOT RESPOND TO ANYONE WHO DOES NOT HAVE PRODUCTIVE INFO ON THIS INSTALL.----fieroboy_IL

CHILL OUT DUDE. What do you define as productive info on this install? Us telling you exactly what you want to hear? You seem to have made up your mind about what you want to hear before you give us a chance to tell you anything.

Ryan and I have both DONE Northstar swaps. There's a REASON we are focusing on the engine management rather than the mechanicals. If you have the scratch to throw down for one of those engines, then the mechanical details of the installation are as TRIVIAL as selecting a good installer. Ways to solve EVERY major mechanical problem instantly come to my mind. The trick will be getting the PCM to control the engine in the absense of communication with other computers from the original chassis.

Aftermarket ECM's are an option... however the requirement of running the VVT limits you to la creme de la creme of aftermarket systems. You're looking at $3-4K for engine management. After that, you're looking at $3-4K in DYNO TIME to dial it in. Variable cam phasing on intake and exhaust HUGELY increases the magnitude of the task of tuning the engine (I would estimate that it will take at least 4 if not 8 times more work to dial that system in than it would a non-VVT system). If you can get the factory PCM to work correctly, ALL THAT WORK is already done for you and you've paid less than $1K for engine management. Also, GM's algorithms in the computer are WAY more advanced than any aftermarket algorithms. GM has hundreds of thousands of man-hours invested in engine management over the years. No aftermarket company can touch that.

AIUI, the 6 speed automatic has its controller integrated into it. The PCM has reverted to being an ECM again and we have come full circle. The various computers on the car now exchange information via CAN (car area network) bus. I don't know how many checks the traffic on that bus has to pass in order for the ECM to work properly. For instance, will the ECM enable full engine power if it doesn't hear from the traction & stability control module? Without in depth knowledge of that protocol, developing hacks or fake-outs for such systems could be a HUGE R&D undertaking. AJXTCman is the one here who probably knows the most about this new engine management, although I doubt that things will be as straight forward as he thinks.

Anyway... mechanical details, since you asked so nicely...

AIUI, the engine uses the same belhousing pattern as the older Northstars, so bolting up the F40 6 speed box will be as easy as bolting up a 282 is to the older engines. Holding close to 500 ftlbs will be a trick for the clutch. The only unit I think could do that an maintain a semblance of streetability is a Tilton. Using this will require a custom flywheel to be made, but with the deeper bellhousing that the 6 speed has, making one is actually EASIER than making one for a 282 because the button flywheel could be stacked on top of the stock flexplate.

The F40 is wider higher than the 282 and is a tight fit with a Chevy, as Alex4mula's build demonstrates. That combined with the front mounted waterpump on the RWD engines means that the powertrain will be a VERY tight fit. However, LT1's and LS1's do not fit in Fieros either, but nonetheless they are installed. Creative trimming and reinforcement of the frame rails will likely make it fit.

Mounts are as simple as they are for any swap... Firm & well damped without being solid is the best way to go.

Plumbing is like mounts... a good eye for design and a tubing bender will solve a multitude of problems.

Wiring is a matter of patience and organization.

I can tell you right now that the SC manifold WILL interfere with the decklid. With suitable surgery and reinforcement, the decklid can likely be sectioned to fit around it and you'll have a shaker.

Now, here are the things you don't want to hear:

I'm guessing that because you're even asking, you're not a master welder or fabricator. If you're not darn confident in your abilities, I would suggest not trying to do this yourself. Ryan (Darth/Sinister) and I have both offered to do this swap for you and you can't go wrong either way.

If you think that 235's will come close to hooking up this much power, even in a Fiero, you don't have a clue. Fortunately, there are a number of ways to improve that.

The gear ratios for the 6 speed will be... less than desireable with this much power. Custom ratios will add #2-3K to the cost if you want the end result to be as good as it can be.

As I said, I can attempt this for you as a turn key. I have absolute confidence in my ability to get the engine in the car and ready to go. The big potential problem will be engine management.

If you desire to try it yourself or have someone else do it, I can also advise.

quote Originally posted by Will: If you're not darn confident in your abilities, I would suggest not trying to do this yourself. Ryan (Darth/Sinister) and I have both offered to do this swap for you and you can't go wrong either way.

I'd stand behind both of you guys.

While I've never seen either of your works personally, I know you both have the knowledge to get it done right, which is different from throwing things together and "hey, it runs... but ignore the check engine light, and don't downshift on a right turn..."

I was discussing this with the tech across from me and he is under the impression also that the bell housing bolt pattern is or will be soon the global pattern. 07 or 08?

It's about time GM will have a global pattern. Didn't they start trying to get that way 30 years ago?

I doubt the original poster is still around. Another fizzled dream........

*whistles*

This is a misprint. It does not look completely like an AC compressor. Some caddy alternators are water cooled. AC compressors have larger pulleys

FIGURE Lower LF of the Engine (LH2)(c)

(1) Generator
Document ID# 1536568
2007 Cadillac STS

I honestly thought about the 4.4 in the past, but I've since decided against it for reasons of price. And possibilities. For the price that would be required to install the 4.4, why not just do an LS2 with a cam and some other mild work? You can get 500 horse and about 450 ft-lbs of torque out of that engine very cheaply. And if you're real set on forced induction, forced induction would bring the LS2 a lot further than modifying the supercharger on the LC3 ever would. The LS2 also has a broader powerband than the LC3. It's just the better choice, for a much smaller pricetag.