I have new pumps. Yes pumps. multiples. I have the radiators. I do not have a Turbo or a cooler. I have a 2.2L circle track car. this is a stock class and the current engine is a 2.2L LN2 OHV. It is using stock parts and it is at 12.12 to 1 compression ratio with oil cooling jets on the bottom of the pistons. Sock cast piston. I have been looking at hiding a intake cooling system. If I was to remove the air filter and installed a heater core in it's place and pump cold water through it. I would also put a foam filter/screen on it to filter dirt and the cover it on the back side with a cut down air filter to hide it. This class must run the OEM intake system. From the air box to the intake must be OEM. I will hide the complete system. I am talking very hot days and very small rule bending all over. I have bent the rules last year for a friend and he won the track championship.

quote Originally posted by AJxtcman: I have bent the rules last year for a friend and he won the track championship.

You mean cheat right!
I had to take that shot at you.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 03-24-2007).]

Cheat. No way. all stock just like the VTEC guys with the factory ECM's. That is why we won last year.

quote Originally posted by Francis T: Water and meth inject was used way back WWII on fighter planes like the ME-109 and lots of others it does work but has few drawbacks like complexity and another fluid level to keep track of.

I have a friend with a turbo mustang that he drives the heck out of
his 1 gal tank is a quarter full when its time to fill up with gas.


adding water/meth isnt as complex as some of the turbo installs that its being added to.
The typical water/meth install takes 30 min with some preplanning and 15 min. to tune.
and the last one i helped install took 20 min total.


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87 Fiero GT 5sp with Vortec L35 4300 Turbocharged V6
Bully Stage 2 clutch
Syclone intake manifold and engine management with Moates adapter and chip burner
Air/water intercooler and Devil's Own progressive water/alky injection
50lb injectors, 3 bar map sensor, Walboro fuel pump and Jabasco Intercooler pump
LM1 wideband on custom manifolds and 3" stainless exhaust system
T31/T04B S4 turbo with a Super T61 in the box
S10 caliper conversion.
Murphy's Constant Matter will be damaged in direct proportion to its value
Murphy's Law of Thermodynamics Things get worse under pressure.
Arthur C. Clarke "Any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

[This message has been edited by vortecfiero (edited 03-25-2007).]

quote Originally posted by vortecfiero: I have a friend with a turbo mustang that he drives the heck out of his 1 gal tank is a quarter full when its time to fill up with gas. adding water/meth isnt as complex as some of the turbo installs that its being added to. The typical water/meth install takes 30 min with some preplanning and 15 min. to tune. and the last one i helped install took 20 min total.

I looked at Devil's Own alky/water injection system. Do you have to program the ECM to account for it? If the tank runs dry, will the ECM be able to handle it?

quote Originally posted by Hudini: I looked at Devil's Own alky/water injection system. Do you have to program the ECM to account for it? If the tank runs dry, will the ECM be able to handle it?

You should reprogram to get the full exploit of its benefits and for the second question if you tune to take full advantage of its benefits you are certainly likely to run into trouble on a boosted engine if you let the tank run dry. It provides anti knock protection that allows you to run higher boost than you normally could so if you loose its effect at those levels damage may result. Using something as simple as a window washer fluid tank with a low level warning can help avoid that problem and with moderate use it takes a good while to run a half gallon or so tank low. The best price I've seen on what appears to be a pretty good unit is on Ebay for $179, they've sold several and I intend to buy one.

H2O and OH injection had been used commonly on Large American car. Dealer installed accessory. Usually big block like Lincoln's, Caddy's, Buick's, Chevy's. This was use to control and combat Knock. This is not an Intercooler. It had one function to lower compression ratios. It did that by lowering combustion pressure and temp. Similar to an EGR valve, but it cleaned the chamber as well and removed carbon also lowering the pressures. Not every car had them and I remember it was just dealer installed, But that is what a Yenko was. It still is not a heat remover. I can explain why if needed.

quote Originally posted by AJxtcman: H2O and OH injection had been used commonly on Large American car. Dealer installed accessory. Usually big block like Lincoln's, Caddy's, Buick's, Chevy's. This was use to control and combat Knock. This is not an Intercooler. It had one function to lower compression ratios. It did that by lowering combustion pressure and temp. Similar to an EGR valve, but it cleaned the chamber as well and removed carbon also lowering the pressures. Not every car had them and I remember it was just dealer installed, But that is what a Yenko was. It still is not a heat remover. I can explain why if needed.

Please explain, from the content of the article I linked to and and what you wrote above: "...lowering combustion pressure and temp" there is some confusion caused regarding your stating it not being a heat remover. I know there is some stability resulting from the anti knock properties but hot air only condenses under two circumstances I'm aware of; compression & cooling. There is also an evaporative process going on so there should be heat exchanged somewhere. If sweat doesn't evaporate off of our skin when we are hot we end up hot and wet, a problem often encountered in Florida.

My understanding is that heat is absorbed to some degree by the mist causing contraction of the mixture, when you put alcohol on your skin and blow on it the area gets very cold from the alcohol evaporating off your skin.

Unlike water/meth injection EGR valves don't seem to boost performance especially since the very nature of their function is to cool combustion temps by contaminating the intake charge with spent gases. If anything they take a counter productive approach to provide anti knock properties and they make a mess of the intake and combustion chameber over time, so I doubt outside of some degree of antiknock they can be reasonably compared to water/meth otherwise there wouldn't be so many disabled or missing.

Please use energy equations to verify what you have stated so there is no room for debate, because it has also been stated that the exhaust temps are reduced with water/meth use so heat is being given up somewhere.

quote Originally posted by Hudini: I looked at Devil's Own alky/water injection system. Do you have to program the ECM to account for it? If the tank runs dry, will the ECM be able to handle it?

No... my '749 ecm is meant to run a turbo setup and it has a table that takes out advance
s the IAT readings go up so cooling the boosted intake air will leave some advance in. So I
dont really NEED to but....Yes it can be optimised for alky but i plan to let the guru do it****.
The 749 has a very agressive knock retard table and from experience it works lol.

****One of the best tuners for the '749 is in canada and so I will enlist his skills to fine tune
my setup..
I will do some data loging... and email him the file. He will adjust the fuel, spark etc and send
me the .bin file. I will burn a chip and re do the test and again send him the data log. As far as
adjusting the shift light tables (hehe), boost control tables (hehe), and the various other tables...
I can do that stuff my self.

Promgrammer $10
Laptop $100
cable $45
chip burner $85
reusable chip $5

messing with the boost control tables and feeling the difference ... PRICLESS
god i love this stuff

[This message has been edited by vortecfiero (edited 03-25-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: Please explain, from the content of the article I linked to and and what you wrote above: "...lowering combustion pressure and temp" there is some confusion caused regarding your stating it not being a heat remover. I know there is some stability resulting from the anti knock properties but hot air only condenses under two circumstances I'm aware of; compression & cooling. There is also an evaporative process going on so there should be heat exchanged somewhere. If sweat doesn't evaporate off of our skin when we are hot we end up hot and wet, a problem often encountered in Florida. My understanding is that heat is absorbed to some degree by the mist causing contraction of the mixture, when you put alcohol on your skin and blow on it the area gets very cold from the alcohol evaporating off your skin. Unlike water/meth injection EGR valves don't seem to boost performance especially since the very nature of their function is to cool combustion temps by contaminating the intake charge with spent gases. If anything they take a counter productive approach to provide anti knock properties and they make a mess of the intake and combustion chameber over time, so I doubt outside of some degree of antiknock they can be reasonably compared to water/meth otherwise there wouldn't be so many disabled or missing. Please use energy equations to verify what you have stated so there is no room for debate, because it has also been stated that the exhaust temps are reduced with water/meth use so heat is being given up somewhere.

WOW I thought you knew a little more about how a car works.
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Ok it is not that bad I just had to take a shot back at you.
If you lower Combustion Camber temp the exhaust is lower. Can we agree on that?
The EGR valve is a device use to lower compression ratio and can vary it. Can we agree on that? That is the definition of an EGR system!
The EGR valve makes for variable compression ratio. Does water burn? is steam an inert gas?
Do you know how AC works? Do you know how heat is transferred?
If you remove heat from the inside of the car it must go some place. It leave the car at the Condenser. If the condenser has low air flow and it can not expel the heat. The Evaporator will not get cold.
So you suck out the heat and then remove the heat by cooling it with outside air. This is complete heat transfer system. Adding alky to a tube with air in it will not cool the air! Does the heat Vanish? The heat must go someplace.

I'm no engineer but I believe it has to do with Boyle's Law. So you are dealing with more than just temperature. You must also consider volume and pressure. Now all we need is an engineer to explain it.

I am going to school for mechanicl engineering and hope to transfer to Master of Engineering Engine System at Madison before we get transfered.
I can put on a little course on heat transfer and removal, but that is not what this topic is about.
I can add just a little.

Well, a little web searching gives this:

In gasoline engines, as with any intercooler, this (water/alcohol) suppresses detonation so more power producing boost and timing can be utilized. Water, with its high latent heat of vaporization cools the intake charge and combustion. Methanol cools the charge and combustion but also acts like an extremely high octane fuel (some researchers claim as high as 120 octane) as well as adding more oxygen to combustion.

This is minimal change in the temp. If you have 1 OZ hot water and add 1/2 teaspoon cool water it will cool it. If you add ice cold water it is even better, but you don't have a supply of ice water. The water does not burn and is an inert gas when in the form of steam! This is the same as an EGR valve except the carbon mess. If you use alky that is a different story as with Nitrous. By the way if you are not aware of this NOS is a company and it is pronounced N.... O..... S.... pet peev I have.
You could use a TED module in the intake system. I might have to look into that instead of a water system. I can use a seperate battery and I only need it for 10 to 15 laps.
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A thermoelectric device (TED) is the heart of the compact heat pump.
This effect is applied to today’s thermoelectric device (TED). A TED is a solid-state heat pump that consists of a number of semiconductor elements, sandwiched between two substrates. The elements are connected electrically in series, and thermally in parallel. When voltage is applied in one direction, one side creates heat while the other side absorbs heat (cooling). Switching polarity of the circuit creates the opposite effect.

Thermoelectric devices are perfect for cooling small areas and for precision temperature control of small objects. Amerigon has extensive experience in integrating TEDs into products for heating and cooling comfort.

The Future of Thermoelectrics
Thermoelectric technology has not been used in cooling larger areas due to its inefficiencies compared to other cooling methods. Amerigon, through its subsidiary, BSST, is working to enhance the efficiency of the TED. With these advancements, the performance and cost will improve, while expanding the number of possible applications of thermomelectrics.
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Maybe its won't work for the volume of air flow
http://www.amerigon.com/pdf...LL-PAPER-08AUG06.pdf

pretty cool stuff click and watch all 4 movies.
http://www.amerigon.com/index.php

quote Originally posted by AJxtcman: This is minimal change in the temp. If you have 1 OZ hot water and add 1/2 teaspoon cool water it will cool it. If you add ice cold water it is even better, but you don't have a supply of ice water. The water does not burn and is an inert gas when in the form of steam! This is the same as an EGR valve except the carbon mess. If you use alky that is a different story as with Nitrous. By the way if you are not aware of this NOS is a company and it is pronounced N.... O..... S.... pet peev I have. You could use a TED module in the intake system. I might have to look into that instead of a water system. I can use a seperate battery and I only need it for 10 to 15 laps. . . A thermoelectric device (TED) is the heart of the compact heat pump. This effect is applied to today’s thermoelectric device (TED). A TED is a solid-state heat pump that consists of a number of semiconductor elements, sandwiched between two substrates. The elements are connected electrically in series, and thermally in parallel. When voltage is applied in one direction, one side creates heat while the other side absorbs heat (cooling). Switching polarity of the circuit creates the opposite effect. Thermoelectric devices are perfect for cooling small areas and for precision temperature control of small objects. Amerigon has extensive experience in integrating TEDs into products for heating and cooling comfort. The Future of Thermoelectrics Thermoelectric technology has not been used in cooling larger areas due to its inefficiencies compared to other cooling methods. Amerigon, through its subsidiary, BSST, is working to enhance the efficiency of the TED. With these advancements, the performance and cost will improve, while expanding the number of possible applications of thermomelectrics. . Maybe its won't work for the volume of air flow http://www.amerigon.com/pdf...LL-PAPER-08AUG06.pdf pretty cool stuff click and watch all 4 movies. http://www.amerigon.com/index.php

Peltier junctions are massively inefficient. They create a large amount of heat, and consequently use a large amount of power (for any kind of reasonable heat transfer that would be required for this kind of application). Using a Peltier device to cool the intake charge is definitely a less than optimal solution.

Not nearly as benefical as using NOS.