I just thought i'd give people some fair warning about using a phantom grip. I bought one for my getrag last year when i had the trans fully rebuild and have put only 5,000km's on it and it's destroyed my transmission. I now need all new bearings and syncros aswell as an entire new carrier assembly. The whole trans was full of metal particles and the phantom grip was worn ~.040 inches down on either side. The side gears are also super worn where they press against the carrier. I would not recommend the phantom grip to anybody unless you want to change tranny fluid every 1000km's and rebuild the trans every 5000km's. POS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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02:04 PM
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madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
I just thought i'd give people some fair warning about using a phantom grip. I bought one for my getrag last year when i had the trans fully rebuild and have put only 5,000km's on it and it's destroyed my transmission. I would not recommend the phantom grip to anybody unless you want to change tranny fluid every 1000km's and rebuild the trans every 5000km's. POS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nope, thats not my thread, but i had the spring upgrade aswell. I thought it worked ok at first and i was pretty happy with it, but after seeing what it's done to the trans i would strongly discourage people from buying this piece of crap. I'll try and get some pictures up soon.
I asked archie about these when I was doin my V8 swap, He said the only people that were happy with them are the ones that haven't broken yet. Sorry to here Zac, thanks for the heads up!
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03:33 PM
Zac88GT Member
Posts: 1024 From: Victoria BC Registered: Nov 2004
The trans is a 5spd M282 getrag from my 88GT and it drove 5000km's with a carbed 4.9 behind it, and 200km's with a N* and was using gm syncromesh fluid. I'm positive the unit was installed correctly, It would be virtually impossible to install it wrong anyway. You may have heard praise but it's still a piece of garbage. I drive my car quite hard and auto crossed it about 10 times during that 5000 km's so that just accelerated wear.
[This message has been edited by Zac88GT (edited 04-26-2007).]
I would be very carefull even with the GR8GRIP because it's applying pressure the same way as the phantom grip aswell as against the spider gears. If you must have it i would drain and check the fluid quite often and dont be surprised to find a lot of metallic flake in the oil.
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03:48 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
The trans is a 5spd M282 getrag from my 88GT and it drove 5000km's with a carbed 4.9 behind it, and 200km's with a N* and was using gm syncromesh fluid.
Hmm. I have the Limited slip differential installed on my N*auto.
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04:45 PM
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Blacktree Member
Posts: 20770 From: Central Florida Registered: Dec 2001
I remember hearing about how the "friction-disc" type limited slip diff's wear stuff out like that. I would avoid ANY friction-disc LSD like the plague.
[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 04-26-2007).]
A couple of us in vintage racing tried them in our MG Midgets. When they decided to work it was a mystery they would never work at the same time under the same conditions. They would bite at different places though you kept your lines the same. Just too squirlley so we ditched them.
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06:01 PM
Austrian Import Member
Posts: 3919 From: Monterey, CA Registered: Feb 2007
I would be very carefull even with the GR8GRIP because it's applying pressure the same way as the phantom grip aswell as against the spider gears. If you must have it i would drain and check the fluid quite often and dont be surprised to find a lot of metallic flake in the oil.
That sucks! I am actually in the middle of doing this RIGHT NOW! Having a transmission rebuilt......
The differential is at the GR8GRIP shop, and he just told me that my carrier is junk - and I need a new one.
I am thinking about getting a whole new remanufactured transmission, because my transmission shop said that the insides of my transmission look worn badly...
I was thinking about taking the carrier out of the reman transmission and having a GR8GRIP installed into IT, BUT, when seeing this, it might make me change my mind!!!
Has anybody else had this problem? Please tell before its too late!
Sorry for the "intelligent" question. What exactly is a phantom grip, and what is it for?
I take it the bad thing is that it grinds too much? I'm confuse.
-M
Its a spring insert that uses springs to press two clutch plates against the spider gears in the differential. Its used so that the two axles dont rotate against each other until you turn. If you have a high powered engine (well, my stock duke was able to do this too, so meh...), you hammer it hard in first and you will have a steering force. Thats caused when the axles rotate due to unequal length of the axles.
I have heard nothing but praise too, and everything about how good they are! Phantom grip, GR8GRIP, and LSD. I heard good about all of them. I think this is the first time I heard ANYTHING bad about these limited slip units!
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09:14 PM
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Will Member
Posts: 14249 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by Zac88GT: I just thought i'd give people some fair warning about using a phantom grip. I bought one for my getrag last year when i had the trans fully rebuild and have put only 5,000km's on it and it's destroyed my transmission. I now need all new bearings and syncros aswell as an entire new carrier assembly. The whole trans was full of metal particles and the phantom grip was worn ~.040 inches down on either side. The side gears are also super worn where they press against the carrier. I would not recommend the phantom grip to anybody unless you want to change tranny fluid every 1000km's and rebuild the trans every 5000km's. POS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How fully rebuilt is "fully rebuilt"? Some shops reuse components that aren't worn or don't check the ones that don't usually wear. I've seen damage like that inside a 282 that did NOT have a Phantom Grip, just from the owner doing a lot of one wheel wonder burnouts (Achieva W41--LGO Quad 4 w/ 195 HP).
quote
Originally posted by AP2k: Its a spring insert that uses springs to press two clutch plates against the spider gears in the differential. Its used so that the two axles dont rotate against each other until you turn. If you have a high powered engine (well, my stock duke was able to do this too, so meh...), you hammer it hard in first and you will have a steering force. Thats caused when the axles rotate due to unequal length of the axles.
Limited slip differentials solve that problem.
No it isn't and no they don't. That's caused by your suspension being worn the F@#$ out.
quote
Originally posted by chrishahn87: I have heard nothing but praise too, and everything about how good they are! Phantom grip, GR8GRIP, and LSD. I heard good about all of them. I think this is the first time I heard ANYTHING bad about these limited slip units!
How many people who've installed PG's have pulled their transmissions back apart or even sampled their oil to see how things are going? FYI, the EP LSD is considerably more advanced than PG or GR8 Grip. Jeff machines the carrier and side gears to accept a bronze friction surface between them, then applies spring force using hardened plates. The results *should* be much more satisfactory. I've used neither, but seen both the EP and the GR8 Grip. The EP appears to be a MUCH higher level of design and workmanship. That is of course reflected in the price.
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10:00 PM
Zac88GT Member
Posts: 1024 From: Victoria BC Registered: Nov 2004
The rebuild consisted of new bearings, syncros, seals, and a new 1-2 shift rail and fork. The place i took it to checked out the whole thing and said everything else was within spec. I saw it appart when they were rebuilding it and all the surfaces that are now junk were excellent before.
[This message has been edited by Zac88GT (edited 04-26-2007).]
No it isn't and no they don't. That's caused by your suspension being worn the F@#$ out.
My suspension might be worn the eff out, but torque steer IS caused by unequal length axles and LSD's solve the torque steer problem provided the clutches grip enough.
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10:28 PM
Austrian Import Member
Posts: 3919 From: Monterey, CA Registered: Feb 2007
Its a spring insert that uses springs to press two clutch plates against the spider gears in the differential. Its used so that the two axles dont rotate against each other until you turn. If you have a high powered engine (well, my stock duke was able to do this too, so meh...), you hammer it hard in first and you will have a steering force. Thats caused when the axles rotate due to unequal length of the axles.
Limited slip differentials solve that problem.
So this is a very odd version of a LSD? It only locks the differential under full throttle?
Under conditions where there is less torque relative to the wheels to each other than the clutching force, the axles are locked together. Take a turn and the torque becomes more than the clutching force and they slip like an open differential (although not as easilly because of the clutch pack).
So the differential is locked until you take a turn or drop some mad, CV joint snapping, torque to the wheels.
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10:49 PM
California Kid Member
Posts: 9541 From: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan Registered: Jul 2001
While I would expect a "little" more wear, your's is truly a disaster with that mileage.
I have at least three times that mileage on my PG, trans fluid checked each season for metal dust, nothing to get excited about so far. Trans was "fully" rebuild and cryo treated at the time of the PG install.
I got a GR8 Grip in my 4t60. No problems so far but I have heard this conplaint before. I'm also using Amsoil ATF, don't know if that makes a difference. Got 6K miles on it
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85 GT 3.4 14.9 @ 90 1.9 60' Old TH125/3.06 Unknown New 4T60/3.42
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02:03 AM
Francis T Member
Posts: 6620 From: spotsylvania va. usa Registered: Oct 2003
Just curiuse here: Can that trans really handle a good size V8 with BOTH wheels grabbing. You are putting twice the load on it. What was biggest engine every tied to it that came that way from the OEM? Like was it really designed for max? Not trashing any thing here and I know people have had succes with pisi setups behind that trans, but one man's success may be anothers failure whreres the other guy loves to dump the clutch with lots of revs and the other don't
I got a GR8 Grip in my 4t60. No problems so far but I have heard this conplaint before. I'm also using Amsoil ATF, don't know if that makes a difference. Got 6K miles on it
if I got this right, a automatic trans has a magnet in the fluid pan. this would collect the shavings, and keep this from happening to you.
I would expect, anyone using these should do the same. and - even more important - dont force it to slip! it is quite clear that every slip means shavings. I would think a "proper" thing to do would be to make the LSD using something like a brake lining, to prevent the "metal on metal", but I doubt theres room. and, this would mean regular trans splits, to replace LSP pads....
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09:48 AM
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Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Originally posted by Will: How fully rebuilt is "fully rebuilt"? Some shops reuse components that aren't worn or don't check the ones that don't usually wear. I've seen damage like that inside a 282 that did NOT have a Phantom Grip, just from the owner doing a lot of one wheel wonder burnouts (Achieva W41--LGO Quad 4 w/ 195 HP).
a manual trans does not have much that can be "rebuilt". but, yes, any little thing get loose in the trans fluid, and everything will just grind away - no filter
if I got this right, a automatic trans has a magnet in the fluid pan. this would collect the shavings, and keep this from happening to you.
I would expect, anyone using these should do the same. and - even more important - dont force it to slip! it is quite clear that every slip means shavings. I would think a "proper" thing to do would be to make the LSD using something like a brake lining, to prevent the "metal on metal", but I doubt theres room. and, this would mean regular trans splits, to replace LSP pads....
Which is what Blacktree mentioned. I have never liked the clutch-type LSD because it uses perishible materials and is nothing but an open differential 2.0. I am interested in the diff I posted a link to up above. Someone said in another thread that they fit Ecotec transmissions.
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11:47 AM
flames4me Member
Posts: 915 From: Woodbury MN / Hammond WI Registered: Jun 2005
I am having my getrag fully rebuilt AND Cryo treated... would the cryo treatment help reduce the wear caused by the Phantom Grip? I was really considering getting one of these for my v8 car, still do, but I would like some input first. thanks.
P.S. I am also upgrading the diff to the stronger 92-94 FWD GM getrag diff. (bigger, stronger spider gears)
------------------ 1986 Silver 5 speed Fiero 3.4 DOHC Bored .30, Fully balanced and blueprinted 13.93@101mph as it is on the street. ... ... ! 350ci 400hp/tq SBC, 4 bolt main Spec Stage 3, Nitrous Oxide, many extras. 87 GT 5-speed Getrag, power everything.
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01:33 PM
Steven Snyder Member
Posts: 3324 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Mar 2004
Well, I guess it's a good thing I just went with GR8GRIP then!
DUDE! GR8GRIP is the same freakin thing! But instead of pushing against the side gears alone (see pictures above), it ALSO pushes against the SPIDER GEARS, TOO!!!!!
I remember hearing about how the "friction-disc" type limited slip diff's wear stuff out like that. I would avoid ANY friction-disc LSD like the plague.
Every limited slip differential from every auto manufacturer from the first in the 1950's up til 2007 has friction discs or cones in it! (except the viscous units in Mitsu and some other Japanese cars)
With a friction disc, you won;t get galded washers like the pictures above. And, when the plates are HEAT-TREATED (like the EP-LSD) they won;t waer the plates or the gears... a little R&D is always a good thing and I worked on mine for over a year before I sold the first one. PG has been breaking in Hondas since I went into business formally back in 2001.
I build the EP LSD using a sintered bronze clutch behind each side gear ot replace the stock steel thrust washers (which are NOT designed to carry any load). I have customers who drive every day, some have been in 4 years, the most miles is over 50K. We took it apart last summer with 40K on it and the clutches had NO MEASUREABLE WEAR!!!!!
Many of you are badly mis-informed.
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02:55 PM
dguy Member
Posts: 2416 From: Beckwith Township, ON, Canada Registered: Jan 2003
The rebuild consisted of new bearings, syncros, seals, and a new 1-2 shift rail and fork. The place i took it to checked out the whole thing and said everything else was within spec. I saw it appart when they were rebuilding it and all the surfaces that are now junk were excellent before.
Did you have any of the components, particularly the side gears, cryo-treated as well?
Given how the PG works and that the OEM diff. was likely not designed to have the back of the side gears used as friction surfaces, I thought it only natural to have the gears cryo'd before installing the thing. (I have a PG in one of the 3.65 Muncies) No idea how well (or not?!) the assembly is going to hold up--it's not in service yet.
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