I've done some research and have discovered the weights of various engines used for Fiero engine swaps. These are compiled below. Some are surprising like the LT1 at 620 lbs manual and 562 automatic but here is the list for reference.


Engine
Chev LT1 620 lbs manual (due to flywheel) 562 lbs automatic
Chev LS1 smallblock 497lbs manual 458lbs automatic
3.4L DOHC 492.5 lbs
Cadillac 4.5/4.9L 371lbs (very light for a nearly 5 L V8)
Cadillac Northstar 468 lbs
Corvette L57 505 lbs
Std. SBC crate engine 575 lbs
3800SC series II 445 lbs.
2.8/3.4 L weighs about 348


From this data it appears that the lightest engine swap choice is the 4.9L Cadillac followed by the 3800SC series II. The weight of the 3.4L DOHC is surprising at nearly 500 lbs., probably due to the massive heads, multiple valves and and four cams. The LT1 is the heaviest by far while various SBC's range from 458 to 575 lbs. but you also must consider the weight of the needed adapter parts which probably adds another 50 lbs or so. The more aluminum and plastic that is used seems to account for the difference in weight of engines of similar displacements.
When choosing an engine it is good to remember that if you go with a much heavier powerplant, a change of springs may be necessary. Otherwise you stand the risk of building a Fiero with poor handling properties.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds -Best
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The automatic engines may be lighter minus the flywheel, but the trans and torque converter aren't lighter by any means.

You're forgetting the Quad 4 and Ecotec ;-)

4.9's are very light. Block weighs about 40 lbs and they have a one piece alluminum intake. I believe that ^ measurment is with the power steering also. 3.4's are heavier then the 2.8. They weigh less with the fiero intake though. I would guess most of the readings are a little high for fiero use.

here is a good link to some weights...
http://www.team.net/sol/tech/engine.html
http://wheeltalk.fancal.net/?p=634

This one is the best though. It will give you weight of engine (with or without accessories), trannys (with or without fluid/flywheel/torque converter), and dimensions. Have fun!
http://www.bacomatic.org/~dw/txt/engfyi.htm

I would say the ferarri 250 V12 would be the best 386 lbs

EDIT: Most of these have the sources also.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 05-11-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Engine Chev LT1 620 lbs manual (due to flywheel) 562 lbs automatic Chev LS1 smallblock 497lbs manual 458lbs automatic 3.4L DOHC 492.5 lbs Cadillac 4.5/4.9L 371lbs (very light for a nearly 5 L V8) Cadillac Northstar 468 lbs Corvette L57 505 lbs Std. SBC crate engine 575 lbs 3800SC series II 445 lbs. 2.8/3.4 L weighs about 348

What's different between the manual and automatic setups you measured? Don't tell me the flywheel weighs 60 lbs?
Does the "Std. SBC crate engine" have iron or aluminum heads? It is an automatic or a stick shift?

quote Originally posted by Formula88: What's different between the manual and automatic setups you measured? Don't tell me the flywheel weighs 60 lbs? Does the "Std. SBC crate engine" have iron or aluminum heads? It is an automatic or a stick shift?

Data was taken from the book on engine swaps. It's not all inclusive and we didn't do actual measurements. Just wanted to present a reference for guys choosing a swap. . I'm assuming that the auto engines weigh less due to the lack of flywheel and lighter bellhousing. .
I believe that the std. crate SBC weight was measured with cast iron heads and no flywheel or bellhousing. With aluminum heads the weight is about 535 lbs. The point is that all swaps seem to add some weight. One surprising engine is the 2.5L Iron Duke that weights 350 lbs, about the same weight as the 2.8L V6.
If further info is needed to verify or disproove the weight chart it should be available online.
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87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds -Best
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[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 05-08-2007).]

quote Fieroseverywhere said: I would say the ferarri 250 V12 would be the best 386 lbs

HELL YEAH!!!

where these measured on a fish scale?

someone should swap a rotory from an rx-7. a guy at my work has one running 9.90s in street trim. it's a light tiny motor.

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The rotary would be a fun project, but unfortunatly there's a problem with it. The exhaust exits the engine right where the axle would be, if I recall. I wonder if the engine could be rotated enough to clear without running into problems, but I'm not in a position to check.

quote Originally posted by Steven Snyder: You're forgetting the Quad 4 and Ecotec ;-)

Yea, I'm curious, how much do those weigh? If I ever do a swap, the most likely choices would be an Ecotec, or low budget 3.4 pushrod.

Other choices I would do, but lack the skill to:

Mazda KLDE V6 engine (cause I have one laying around and know the history of it)
Mazda 2.3Mzr (the engines out of the Mazdaspeed 3, 6, and the Cx7. Awesome engines)
some other really light, yet powerful modern engine (preferably with great gas mileage.)

Rotary engines are a completely different setup....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_engines

They would be tons of fun in a fiero but the work involved would make most people stop in their tracks.

Mazda uses a wankel designed rotary engine. These are a little different still. Would take some work but would be worth it (also much more then the car).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine

This is why they are not heavily favored for fiero use.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 05-08-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Engine Chev LT1 620 lbs manual (due to flywheel) 562 lbs automatic Chev LS1 smallblock 497lbs manual 458lbs automatic 3.4L DOHC 492.5 lbs Cadillac 4.5/4.9L 371lbs (very light for a nearly 5 L V8) Cadillac Northstar 468 lbs Corvette L57 505 lbs Std. SBC crate engine 575 lbs 3800SC series II 445 lbs. 2.8/3.4 L weighs about 348 From this data it appears that the lightest engine swap choice is the 4.9L Cadillac followed by the 3800SC series II. The weight of the 3.4L DOHC is surprising at nearly 500 lbs., probably due to the massive heads, multiple valves and and four cams. The LT1 is the heaviest by far while various SBC's range from 458 to 575 lbs. but you also must consider the weight of the needed adapter parts which probably adds another 50 lbs or so. The more aluminum and plastic that is used seems to account for the difference in weight of engines of similar displacements. When choosing an engine it is good to remember that if you go with a much heavier powerplant, a change of springs may be necessary. Otherwise you stand the risk of building a Fiero with poor handling properties.

My ZZ4 (cast iron block, aluminum heads) has a dry shipping weight of 405 lbs.
This is without flywheel, exhaust manifolds and carb but everything else from oil pan to intake.
Your SBC and LT1 weights must include ALL accessories as I find it hard to believe that the cast iron heads add over 150 lbs. I would guess iron heads weigh around 50 lbs (25 lbs per head) more than the aluminum heads.
I think your LS1 weight is with all the brackets and such as well.
I question the flywheel weight, 60 lbs seem a little on the heavy side. The Fiero flywheel with clutch attached is only 35 lbs. True a V-8 flywheel will weight more, But double seems a little high especially since the Fiero sized clutch plate and pressure plate are used.
Most torque converters also weigh more, so is the automatic part without the converter?

You should also compile a list of transaxle weights as well. These will also vary the weight of the entire drivetrain greatly.
An example is my 2.8L V-6 with a TH125 trans was only 30 lbs lighter than my ZZ4 V-8 with a manual. (50 lbs was reduced by going to a manual.)

The Fiero 4-spd manual tranaxles weigh roughly 84 lbs, The 5-spds are around 100lbs, and the TH125 is around 125 lbs without torque converter and 151 with it. The 4T40 is suppose to weigh around 177lbs.

Rockcrawl also has some other weights as well (NOTE his transaxle weights include the torque converter) on his website:
http://fp.enter.net/~rockcrawl/weights.htm

So the 3800SC with a 4T65E transaxle weighs in around 641 lbs where a ZZ4 with a 4-spd is around 533 lbs
(ZZ4 is 405 lbs + carb, exhaust manifolds, flywheel/clutch, and adapter) saving 108 lbs vs the 3800SC/Auto swap. There is only a 4 lbs difference if you use the same 4-spd in both swaps but nearly 90 hp more power with the ZZ4 V-8 (stock vs. crate, no mods). So as you can see it really isn't much difference between an aluminum headed ZZ4 and a 3800SC.
(Before anyone comments that the 3800Sc can be modded to get 350hp without adding weight (cam, pulley, etc.), The ZZ4 just needs a camshaft change and it's at 430hp and no weight gained.)

On weight vs. handling:
One must also remember that with it's mid-engine design, a +/- 50 lbs of weight forward of the rear axles should not have that adverse of an effect on handling. (that is the difference between an auto Fiero and a manual Fiero!) Yes handling will change slightly due to weight distribution and such, but not drastically as some other people tend to portray. Think of a regular sedan driven on a road course with just a driver and then driven with a 150 lbs passenger in the middle of the back seat. Yes some minor differences in handling will occur but nothing drastically. And that is with 150 lbs forward of the rear axles. Try it with 2 people in tha backseat for 300 lbs total weight added.
Want to know how much the weight difference of a swap will affect your Fiero? Drive around some curvy roads alone, Then stop by and pick up your 150-180 lbs friend and do it again. That is how much your handling will change with most swaps. Modifying your suspension with better springs, shocks, struts, and bushings can eliminate any changes and/or make the car handle even better than stock even with a heavier drivetrain. Swapping a more powerful or heavier drivetrain onto a worn/tired suspension is just begging for problems.
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[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 05-08-2007).]

You all may want to look at this again.

http://www.bacomatic.org/~dw/txt/engfyi.htm

This is THE most complete weight list you will ever see. There are multiple sources listed for all of the weights. Almost every engine ever put into a fiero is already there along with tranny info also.

why put a rotary in a heavy fiero? if you look at the sub 10 rx7's they weigh almost 2000 and in first gen they are under 2000. Mazda also made the rx7 with a high gear ratio in the axle and they vary from 3.73-4.11 and the aftermarket will be 4.56-5.00. Find a high geared trans for a Fiero and loose 700lbs and you will have a contender in the 10's. Also exhaust is easy to move with a welder and I have had my time with a 12a rotary reving to 13000rpm!!!!! absolutely AMAZING and scay as hell for about 300hp so ecotec eat your pistons out 250hp per liter N/A!

As always Orief makes some very good points. Obviously we didn't weigh the engines so weights that were posted came from a number of book and online sources and can be interpreted a number of ways. Do they have iron heads vs. aluminum heads, auto or manual bellhousings, flywheel or torque converter. w or w/o accessories like generator, A/C compressor, manifolds etc?
If the ZZ4 small block weights 405 lbs dry, and the A/C compressor, flywheel, generator , manifolds and bellhousing are added I would think that this would easily add 100 lbs which brings it into line with the Corvette L57 engine weight posted. If the engine is in a Fiero we then also have to consider the weight of the conversion kit parts-adaptor plate etc.
As far as engine weights and the variables we don't have exacting data. What I was attemting to do was to provide a general guide that would aid in swap choices. One thing for sure; every engine swap will add some weight. If weight is the most important factor the 3.4L and the 4.9L Caddilac will add the least though.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds -Best
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If I recall the weights on Rockcrawl's website were ones he actually weighed personally. He does state that with the exception of the aluminum headed V-8 all the others include everything "as installed in a Fiero".
Maybe we could get some of the businesses that install different swaps (Like the Fiero Factory, West Coast Fiero's, Lloyd and Archie.) to take some weight measurements of engines in the "as installed" set-up and also the various transaxles like the G6 6-spd manual.
It would be nice to at least have some accurate data on weights.
Like Dennis states this could be an aid to someone thinking about swaps.

Does anyone have any information relating to a comparison between the ZZ4 with aluminum heads and the LS1 and/or LS6?

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FierOmar

Also, I read in a car mag (Pontiac Enthusiast?) ....

4T65e : 200 lbs (approx)
4t80e : 300 lbs (approx)

and from elsewhere on the forum:

M282 Getrag: 95 lbs (approx)

Dave compared his ZZ430 clone 5-speed 88 GT swap with a stock 88 GT automatic and there was only 30 lbs difference. (the thread should be in the archives, if I can find it)

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Also, I read in a car mag (Pontiac Enthusiast?) .... 4T65e : 200 lbs (approx) 4t80e : 300 lbs (approx) and from elsewhere on the forum: M282 Getrag: 95 lbs (approx) Dave compared his ZZ430 clone 5-speed 88 GT swap with a stock 88 GT automatic and there was only 30 lbs difference. (the thread should be in the archives, if I can find it)

Yes I believe that the weights of the autos are correct and its a price that you pay for strength and piece of mind . .The lightweight GETRAG 5 speed was only designed for 250ft lbs of torque while the 4T65eHD has been and can be built to withstand 1000HP. As for the V8 swap, I have a hard time believing that it only added 30 lbs. The flywheel and adapter kit add far more weight than that without the engine.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds -Best
Engine Controls, ECM goodies, Chip
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I don't think the weight of the 3.4 DOHC is correct.

My stock 87GT 5 speed weighs in at 2,734 lbs.
My other 87GT 5 speed with a 3.4 DOHC weighs in at 2,787 lbs.

Both cars were weighed on 4-place race scales.

quote Originally posted by FierOmar: Does anyone have any information relating to a comparison between the ZZ4 with aluminum heads and the LS1 and/or LS6?

LS1 with LS6 intake (main page car):
Weights as listed in the book "High Perofrmance Fieros" by Robert "Greg" Wagner.
You can buy at Fierostore.com and fierodave.com if interested. Excellent book, I highly recommend it.

All weights are in pounds and what they actually weighed them as (except block as noted)...

intake manifold - 15.9 (single piece plastic manifold)
Head with valves and springs - 24.1 each side
block - 107 (as published by GM, not actually measured) alluminum block p/n 12561166
flywheel - 23.8
starter - 9.1
engine long block - 333 (note 1) (using this same formula the 2.8 weighed 302)
exhaust manifold - 16 each side

Note 1 : long block with heads, water pump, valve covers, timing cover, oil pan, intake manifold, fuel injectors, and oil. Without : belt driven accessories, ignition system, exhaust, emissions controls, engine mounts, clutch or flywheel.
This is all they have listed but should be a good start.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 05-10-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: As for the V8 swap, I have a hard time believing that it only added 30 lbs. The flywheel and adapter kit add far more weight than that without the engine.

My car was weighed on the same scale (just 3 years apart) and I only have a 30 lbs gain, but remember I reduced weight by going from the TH125 to a 4-spd manual and removing the A/C compressor. If you notice that CrazyD also weighed an 88 auto car against his manual car.
I don't remember if his car had the AC or not. So the 30 lbs difference is misleading due to other parts weigh less.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 05-10-2007).]

I'm working on a 4.9 swap right now. This engine is going into is an 85GT. Whats strange about this particular GT is there is no options in it. I understand that everything was an option on a fiero but its rare to find one (a GT) with everything deleted. It only has power windows and deck lid release. No AC, cruise, locks, mirrors, defroster, sunroof, ect. I'm looking to probably reduce weight. The 4.9 supposedly (not weighed by me) weights 371lbs with all the accessories attached. I will be losing the AC, power steering, and cruise. The blower motor (in the trunk) will go away along with the tubes and shielding and the battery will be moved to the front. I will lose some weight with the lowering springs but probably gain more with the bigger brakes (11.25) It should be much better balanced and might even weigh less then it used to. This is before any actual weight reduction. I think it is a perfect car for this swap. The only options that I actually feel the need to have is power windows and deck lid release. With the performance mods (480 lift cam, superchips dual O2 chip, port and gasket match, dual exhaust) and the already light weight (around 2600) of the car it should be a blast to drive. Looking around 230-240 HP complete and 2500 lbs. Not bad for a car costing $2500 to build including the cost of the car itself, new suspension, new brakes, and rebuilt 4.9. Still deciding on 4 speed (3.65) or isuzu. 85lbs and 98lbs respectivly. The 4.9 may not have the performance upgradeability but the weight savings should make for a very quick and nimble car. And with the 5 speed get close to 30mpg on the highway. Along with a very tough and dependable little engine. Plus I can always upgrade to a turbo later if I feel the need for more speed.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 05-11-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Yes I believe that the weights of the autos are correct and its a price that you pay for strength and piece of mind . .The lightweight GETRAG 5 speed was only designed for 250ft lbs of torque while the 4T65eHD has been and can be built to withstand 1000HP. As for the V8 swap, I have a hard time believing that it only added 30 lbs. The flywheel and adapter kit add far more weight than that without the engine.

The automatics are definitely stronger, for sure. Just posting the weights for some more comparison.

FYI, re-read my post about Dave's swap. It was comparing a stock 88 AUTOMATIC to his ZZ430 style 5-speed swap. The lighter weight 5-speed offsets some of the weight of the V8, plus the V8 is using aluminum heads, intake, etc.

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: LS1 flywheel - 23.8 engine long block - 333 (note 1) (using this same formula the 2.8 weighed 302) exhaust manifold - 16 each side Note 1 : long block with heads, water pump, valve covers, timing cover, oil pan, intake manifold, fuel injectors, and oil. Without : belt driven accessories, ignition system, exhaust, emissions controls, engine mounts, clutch or flywheel. This is all they have listed but should be a good start.

Now , this is interesting. As I recall, the stock Fiero flywheel weighs about 17 lbs.(might be able to get one for the V8 that weighs close to stock). V8 headers might weigh a little more, but the starter should be about the same.

So... with the LS1, the total added weight would be about 40 lbs. if other parts were the same (e.g. same transmission).

Almost forgot... have to add some weight (??) for Archie's adapter, tut I don't know how much. Nevertheless, it should be relatively easy to lose 40-50 lbs. from the rear of the car to help maintain weight and balance. Relocating the battery up front would probably account for 30-35 lbs.

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FierOmar

[This message has been edited by FierOmar (edited 05-11-2007).]

My hopes to pick up (wink wink) a 3.4L Camaro engine with my Windstar are dimming. How do folks move these around other than an engine hoist? Take off the easily removable pieces?

quote Originally posted by FierOmar: Almost forgot... have to add some weight (??) for Archie's adapter, tut I don't know how much.

6 pounds.

Archie

quote Originally posted by Archie: 6 pounds. Archie

Did you use a fish scale to measure that?

My 85 GT put on about 110 pounds this past winter. 2.8 4 spd to 3.8 Series II s/c 4spd.

The listed weight for an LT1 is way out in left field. The rule of thumb "fighting weight" for an ALL IRON SBC is 550#. ALL LT1's have aluminum intakes and waterpumps. Many have aluminum heads as well. 60# is an absurd weight for a flywheel. 30# is more accurate for a factory SBC flywheel.

quote Originally posted by crytical point: why put a rotary in a heavy fiero? if you look at the sub 10 rx7's they weigh almost 2000 and in first gen they are under 2000. Mazda also made the rx7 with a high gear ratio in the axle and they vary from 3.73-4.11 and the aftermarket will be 4.56-5.00. Find a high geared trans for a Fiero and loose 700lbs and you will have a contender in the 10's. Also exhaust is easy to move with a welder and I have had my time with a 12a rotary reving to 13000rpm!!!!! absolutely AMAZING and scay as hell for about 300hp so ecotec eat your pistons out 250hp per liter N/A!

Ecotec>12a
period.

quote Originally posted by Will: 60# is an absurd weight for a flywheel. 30# is more accurate for a factory SBC flywheel.

That is correct except that all stick shift LT1's in Camaro & FBirds (but not Corvettes) were huge Dual-Mass Flywheels.

Archie

quote Originally posted by crytical point: why put a rotary in a heavy fiero? if you look at the sub 10 rx7's they weigh almost 2000 and in first gen they are under 2000. Mazda also made the rx7 with a high gear ratio in the axle and they vary from 3.73-4.11 and the aftermarket will be 4.56-5.00. Find a high geared trans for a Fiero and loose 700lbs and you will have a contender in the 10's. Also exhaust is easy to move with a welder and I have had my time with a 12a rotary reving to 13000rpm!!!!! absolutely AMAZING and scay as hell for about 300hp so ecotec eat your pistons out 250hp per liter N/A!

wankel rev's are mis counted
they count 3 = 1 as they fire 3 times per rev
and a mazda reading 6k on the tack is really turning 2000 times 3 pluses
but as they fire every rev the 3 is equal to 6 power strokes in a v6 over two rev's
anyway yes the tack may read 13k but the motor is really turning a little over 4k at the flywheel
as it counts spark events NOT flywheel turns

btw I had a RX4 with a 13b wankel

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

quote Originally posted by ray b: anyway yes the tack may read 13k but the motor is really turning a little over 4k at the flywheel as it counts spark events NOT flywheel turns

I didn't know that...you learn something every day

quote Originally posted by SCCA FIERO: I don't think the weight of the 3.4 DOHC is correct. My stock 87GT 5 speed weighs in at 2,734 lbs. My other 87GT 5 speed with a 3.4 DOHC weighs in at 2,787 lbs. Both cars were weighed on 4-place race scales.

I agree ..I weighed mine and it came up to 465 with accessories, flywheel

Am I correct in thinking that a LS2 weighs approximately the same as the 3800SC?

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--David

quote Originally posted by dcfox: Am I correct in thinking that a LS2 weighs approximately the same as the 3800SC?

The 3800SC weighs in at 445 lbs. It's a cast iron engine with a big supercharger and a heavy bottom end. The LS2 engine is a very advanced state of the art V8 engine with an all aluminum block that weighs 443 lbs. IMO for a V8 swap this engine offers outstanding possibilities. . The only lighter V8 engine is the 4.9L Cadillac but it also doesn't make the horsepower
I believe that V8Archie may do LS2 swaps and the swap is probably for those with means. I would guess that the price tag is somewhere around $13,000 or more for one of these. Great engine if you can afford to own and run one .

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quote Originally posted by Archie: That is correct except that all stick shift LT1's in Camaro & FBirds (but not Corvettes) were huge Dual-Mass Flywheels. Archie

Ahh... didn't know that.
However, that flywheel's not used in a Fiero install.