Ok I have read allot of swap threads, but with the increasing price of feul here in Canada, i have a new twist on the question. What is the most feul efficent swap? And does anyone make a ecotec swap kit as this seams that it might have the best mpg. Thanks in advance
The 3800SC should be able to do in the mid to upper 30's since that engine in the GP's can do low 30's or better. I'm very please with my 3.4PR getting 37 on the hwy. (85GT) Still working on the in town to improve it. (rich at idle)
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11:31 PM
May 25th, 2007
befarrer Member
Posts: 1962 From: Westlock, Alberta, CANADA Registered: Aug 2002
Hey cold, you going to Red Deer this weekend? I will have a Quad 4 HO Fiero there, and I plan to go all the way to Red Deer and back to Edmonton on 1 tank. I get 40MPG on the highway, and 35-38 with my normal driving in town and highway combo. If my dad comes, he will also have a L4 swapped Fiero.
------------------ 84 Fiero Sport Coupe #1192 :: 86 Fiero Base Coupe Quad 4 HO :: 1998 Dodge Neon EX 2Dr 2.0L DOHC Auto
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01:44 AM
cold fiero Member
Posts: 90 From: Wetaskiwin, Alberta, Canada Registered: Aug 2003
No i am not going to reddeer this weekend. But i was just looking at one of your posts. How hard is the swap. And would you guys make me some mounts? It is goin in to a 84 like you DADs
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03:46 AM
Old Lar Member
Posts: 13797 From: Palm Bay, Florida Registered: Nov 1999
A 3.4 (Camaro engine) mated to a t440t from a Buick (low geared version) should get you mid 30 mpg. When that was in my 88GT at 80 mph, the car was turning ~2000 rpm.
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08:22 AM
LAMBO Member
Posts: 1677 From: Lucas, Iowa, USA Registered: May 2000
Like befarrer said, my Quad4 5speed gets mid to upper 30s mpg. And that is with spirited driving. I love driving this car also. It's like the Quad4 was made for the Fiero.
A duke with a 5 speed will get you mid to upper 30's. I figure 4 speed auto's are about the same. I would have to agree with fieroX though. Ecotec with the 6 speed in a fiero would be a mileage monster. I would guess in the range of 42-46 on the highway.
If you really want the best gas mileage and are willing to sacrifice your power and range you could convert to an electric fiero . And there is much better technology for this now then there was when this car was built.
I just replaced my duke/auto transmission with a duke/4 spd econo transmission. With the auto combination the engine turned 3000 RPM at 65 MPH. With the econo 4 speed, the engine turns about 2300 RPM at 65 MPH. I haven't taken a road trip in it yet since the swap but I think the mpg's (30 with the auto) on the highway should show an improvement.
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07:48 PM
cold fiero Member
Posts: 90 From: Wetaskiwin, Alberta, Canada Registered: Aug 2003
I wouldn't recommend a Quad 4, ya they are peppy but they tend to like to blow up, especially if you rev them much or they have many miles on them. Just my opinion, and experience.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 05-25-2007).]
keep the duke!! replace head and intake with units from later model dukes that were in the s10,,grand am, buicks ,chevys, oldsmobile untill 1993,,use 88 model header it is freeflowing i have an 88 notch I have gotten 40mpg on trips when i had a vacuum gage in the fiero,I have the stock head & manifold on it now and highway milage is about 34 to 36 the 88 duke has high gearing in 5th and the engine loafs at 65 !!over 70 milage drops severely,I got around 24 to 26 arond town in heavy traffic,guesstimate is 18 to 21,,I know, you can recieve great mpg and 115 to 120 hp with easy modifications,,with 88 you can come close to mpg of ecotech.. check out " ironduke7.tripod.com/ "cheap skinflint driver
[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 05-26-2007).]
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12:27 AM
befarrer Member
Posts: 1962 From: Westlock, Alberta, CANADA Registered: Aug 2002
Nobody makes a Quad 4 kit for the Fiero, has to be all custom. Also, a Quad 4 HO never came with an auto, just a 5 speed Getrac, with either a 3.65 (what I have) or a 3.92 final drive, both cruise in 5th at about the same RPM, since the 3.92 FDR Getrac has a longer 5 gear (0.7X compared to 0.89). Also, Quad 4 HO's are supposed to run on premium. But a regular Quad 4 is identical on the outside besides the heavier flywheel and larger crank pulley, and makes 160HP, and came with a 3 speed TH125 auto, and ran on regular fuel.
I should add, my first Quad 4 in this Fiero had 326,000KM on it, and it was all original, including the head. I think the head gasket had been replaced but that was it. I drove it for 10,500KM fairly hard, and it spun a rod bearing in April of last year, then when tearing the engine down, found out I had 5 cracks in 3 cylinders in the head, and my head gasket was bleeding pressure between the only cylinder with no cracks in the head and the one beside it, cylinder wear was about 1.5 thou, and the original crank bearings were in spec still (besides the spun one), and I drove 70KM with that spun bearing at 100KM/h. And with that engine I got 38MPG. My new engine I rebuilt, had 271,000KM on it, and had 0.5 thou wear on the cylinders, I reground the crank because they were just barely in spec, and put on a rebuilt head, since the original head had 2 cracks in it.
[This message has been edited by befarrer (edited 05-26-2007).]
my 2200 gets 24 mpg in town driving, I don't know what it gets on the highway because its never been on the highway while I have owned it. Formulagator put the motor in the car and I picked it up later after he got out of Fieros. its a 2200 out of a cavalier mated to a 5 speed.
But as soon as I get my V6 SE done I will be parking it. Its been a good car but I just don't have time to keep up with 3 of them. It would make someone a good project and when I'm done with it I will post it in the mall.
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09:55 AM
vortecfiero Member
Posts: 996 From: Toronto Area, Canada Registered: Feb 2002
lol im lucky to get 200 kms to a tank in the city fooling around. hwy cruising at 120 kms or around 75mph gets around 450 kms to the tank
------------------
87 Fiero GT 5sp with Vortec L35 4300 Turbocharged V6 Bully Stage 2 clutch Syclone intake manifold and engine management with Moates adapter and chip burner Air/water intercooler and Devil's Own progressive water/alky injection 50lb injectors, 3 bar map sensor, Walboro fuel pump and Jabasco Intercooler pump LM1 wideband on custom manifolds and 3" stainless exhaust system T31/T04B S4 turbo with a Super T61 in the box S10 caliper conversion. Murphy's Constant Matter will be damaged in direct proportion to its value Murphy's Law of Thermodynamics Things get worse under pressure. Arthur C. Clarke "Any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
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10:03 AM
cold fiero Member
Posts: 90 From: Wetaskiwin, Alberta, Canada Registered: Aug 2003
I quess what is my main motivation is mpg, but also that i have an 86 gt that is rotting away and i don't want a less powerfull engine going into my 84.After i retire the 86 I don't want to be driving along and go well the rott is not too bad., "A floor mat would cover up that hole. Lets take the 86 out of retirement". I figure i have about a year before the 86 turns to dust. With 2 kids thats about how long it will take to do any swap/ improvment.
I would also like to thank everybody for their ideas it is realy helpfull.
Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: .... If you really want the best gas mileage and are willing to sacrifice your power and range you could convert to an electric fiero ....
That is not true, I know of 2 Electric cars that will utterly destroy any Fiero here on the forum in the 1/4 mile. Getting mid 3's in a mail delivery truck that is 100% electric.
electric motors have 100% torque available at 0 rpm that alone will give you a killer launch and a torque monster all the way up to the motor's maximum RPM. you put in the right electric motor attached to the Transmission and use the Lithium Ion packs made at hybrid Technologies in Texas and you will have an electric fiero that will kill all the ricer kids and be electric.
Problem is you are simply trading the Gasoline costs for different costs. Electric cars you pay for the electricity and the Batteries. Replacing the tray of batteries every 2-4 years adds up fast and get's quite close to the $5.00US a gallon mark. More than that if you use Li-ION batteries so you get a range that is decent and useable.
Lead acid batteries will get you 40-50 miles if you drive it right. LiION batteries will get you 160-180 miles, But cost 4X the price of the Lead Acid.
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10:42 AM
Fieroseverywhere Member
Posts: 4242 From: Gresham, Oregon USA Registered: Mar 2006
That is not true, I know of 2 Electric cars that will utterly destroy any Fiero here on the forum in the 1/4 mile. Getting mid 3's in a mail delivery truck that is 100% electric.
electric motors have 100% torque available at 0 rpm that alone will give you a killer launch and a torque monster all the way up to the motor's maximum RPM. you put in the right electric motor attached to the Transmission and use the Lithium Ion packs made at hybrid Technologies in Texas and you will have an electric fiero that will kill all the ricer kids and be electric.
Problem is you are simply trading the Gasoline costs for different costs. Electric cars you pay for the electricity and the Batteries. Replacing the tray of batteries every 2-4 years adds up fast and get's quite close to the $5.00US a gallon mark. More than that if you use Li-ION batteries so you get a range that is decent and useable.
Lead acid batteries will get you 40-50 miles if you drive it right. LiION batteries will get you 160-180 miles, But cost 4X the price of the Lead Acid.
You misunderstood me. I was talking about that electric fiero in particular. Or building one like it. It has the lead acid batteries so it only has about a 50 mile range. Perfect for a comuter car but nothing else. The problem is the build cost. If you wanted to build an electric car that would perform well it would be well the cost would be through the roof. A simple cheap electric fiero would still cost a bit to make and you would lose the range and some of the power.
The tesla I posted in the other link was an example of a more performance based electric car. It has the lithium ion batteries along with regenerative engine braking and many other features that help with its range and speed. 0-60 in about 4 seconds with a top speed of 130 mph is excellent for an electric car. The downside is the cost to build or buy. This one has a price tag of 93,000 dollars wihtout any of the options. I was just stating that this would be (for me) the ultimate goal.
There are electric cars out there that cam out perform most internal combustion cars but this does not mean that ALL of them do.
[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 05-26-2007).]
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11:11 AM
Luke Member
Posts: 467 From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Registered: Nov 2005
Tesla Good name for a car , just read a book about him, must check out your link when I get home (limited internet access here at work).
My 3400 5spd swap (running a tuned 3.1 MPFI 5spd ECM and chip) gets 12L/ 100 city (I drive it hard) and 7-8L/100 HWY. On the way to Carslile I was getting something like 40+ MPG . Even with in town driving when I got back this week I got ~350km out of 30L and I don't drive far in town so the car never really warms up.
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11:39 AM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
Tesla Good name for a car , just read a book about him,
What book did you just read about Tesla?
In my opinion the biggest mistake of the 20th century was following Edison and not Tesla's model for wireless electricity distribution. Tesla was brilliant but misunderstood. Only now is the potential for wireless electricity being explored. If perfected electric cars wouldn't need batteries and have unlimited range with a series of towers similar to cell phone towers.
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12:57 PM
A_Pegasi Member
Posts: 206 From: Virginia Beach, VA, USA Registered: Dec 2001
This is what they claim it will do: Acceleration: 0 to 60 in about 4 seconds Top Speed: Over 130 mph Range: Over 200 miles Battery Life: Useful battery life in excess of 100,000 miles using lithium-ion battery pack Full Charge: As short as 3.5 hours
Too bad it costs almost $100,000 and is only available in a limited number of major cities.
This is what they claim it will do: Acceleration: 0 to 60 in about 4 seconds Top Speed: Over 130 mph Range: Over 200 miles Battery Life: Useful battery life in excess of 100,000 miles using lithium-ion battery pack Full Charge: As short as 3.5 hours
Too bad it costs almost $100,000 and is only available in a limited number of major cities.
To keep this related to the thread, my stock '88 coupe with a 5 speed gets 27 mpg in mixed driving around town and 41 on the highway at 60 mph.
This is what they claim it will do: Acceleration: 0 to 60 in about 4 seconds Top Speed: Over 130 mph Range: Over 200 miles Battery Life: Useful battery life in excess of 100,000 miles using lithium-ion battery pack Full Charge: As short as 3.5 hours
Too bad it costs almost $100,000 and is only available in a limited number of major cities.
Yea, I absolutely love the Tesla. It's such an awesome car. This one can really say "Handling by Lotus" since it was Lotus built and Lotus designed (drivetrain was designed by Tesla and Ac Propulsion) Since the company is based in Silicon Valley, and started by people in the electronics/computer industry, the pricing strategy follows that trend. First the price is very high, so the early adopters can buy it (they're less price sensitive), then as they help amortize the cost of development, the price drops to the range that mere mortals can afford it. I foresee the Roadster dropping in price in the next few years. Independent of that, Tesla is planning a 4 door sedan to compete with the 5 series BMW, priced at $49.000, scheduled for 2010. Then they will build a truck (release date not set).
-M
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02:12 AM
Austrian Import Member
Posts: 3919 From: Monterey, CA Registered: Feb 2007
In my opinion the biggest mistake of the 20th century was following Edison and not Tesla's model for wireless electricity distribution. Tesla was brilliant but misunderstood. Only now is the potential for wireless electricity being explored. If perfected electric cars wouldn't need batteries and have unlimited range with a series of towers similar to cell phone towers.
Funny, how history repeats itself, isn't it? There is a company mentioned in the previous issue of "Business 2.0" that is doing short range wireless power distribution. The kicker is that the receiver is the size of 2 pennies stacked on top of each other. The idea is that you can carry your cell phone (or any other device) in your pocket, and when you're within the 3 feet range, it will charge. So your cell phone is charged while you sit at your desk, no need to take it out of your pocket.
I think the biggest reason for wireless electricity to be killed of back in Edison's times, is because Edison was greedy, and it's impossible to charge people for electricity that's being sent wirelessly over the airwaves.
Tesla (the inventor) actually made an electric car at the turn of the century that would get a huge range. (My personal uneducated guess is that the car was based on some form of wireless electricity) The problem is that Nicolai Tesla got very secretive and reclusive in his older days, so that car is more of a rumor that something that can be found. (I had no luck on the internet. :/ )
Back to the topic though: What gas mileage do people that attempted an Ecotec swap get? (which Ecotec did they use, what tranny, how many hp?) Did anybody ever attempt to swap in an efficient Japanese (e.g.: Honda) engine, or engine + tranny into a Fiero? I found an article about someone swapping in a Honda engine into a Fiat X-19 (he ran two electrical systems. The stock Fiat system ran all the lights and the blinkers, and completely separate from that a second electrical system ran everything related to the Honda internals), but couldn't find anything on Fiero + foreign engines.
[This message has been edited by Austrian Import (edited 05-27-2007).]
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02:28 AM
Francis T Member
Posts: 6620 From: spotsylvania va. usa Registered: Oct 2003
How does one drive a fiero, especially a modified one to get good gas milage? I try hard (well maybe not that hard) near every time I take mine out, only to lose it at the first nice corner or stop sign. I think a problem with the roads in my part of Va. , too darn tempting. Funny thing is, a lot mods from headers, intakes etc or newer engines can really help with gas milage, however they also give you all those extra horses and RPMs to play with so............ With fuel cost getting out of sight our light little Fiero's should start to look quite attractive to some that use to shun them.
First of all, the tesla is running on basically 6,000+ computer batteries. This alone jacks up the price. Alot of R&D was put into this work of art, especially the batteries. As far as Tesla's idea for wireless power, think of it this way, live around high tension lines for a while and see if you don't develope some sort of cancer. Tesla was a genious, no doubt, and is the reason we use 120V AC today. He BEAT edison! If he hadn't, we would be using DC in our houses today. Back to the point though, if you were to use "waves of electricity" to power your car, understand that the waves will be EVERYWHERE! We are inundated by waves of every sort everyday (radio, TV, light, UV radiation, cell phone, etc.). Fortunately they are of low power, otherwise our own bodies would short circuit and fry. WE have no fuses. Run a little current across our hearts and see what happens. Tesla WAS a genious, but was shortsighted as far as knowing "human circuits". As far as the Tesla roadster, he or his heirs have nothing to do with it, Tesla is merely a name given to this creation.
------------------ carpe diem
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02:26 AM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15480 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
Getting back on subject; if mileage at the lowest investment is the main object, even by todays standards,.a Duke Fiero with a 5 speed manual trans can get fantastic mileage, We've seen reports from reliable folks who have achieved 35-40 highway MPG figures WITH a sound running 2.5L in a good state of tune in a car that is properly aligned. Improper or out of spec. alignment can have a very adverse affect on mileage which is a topic often overlooked on this forum.
------------------ 87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds 2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress Engine Controls, PCM goodies, re-programming & odd electronics stuff " I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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09:56 AM
Austrian Import Member
Posts: 3919 From: Monterey, CA Registered: Feb 2007
First of all, the tesla is running on basically 6,000+ computer batteries. This alone jacks up the price. Alot of R&D was put into this work of art, especially the batteries. As far as Tesla's idea for wireless power, think of it this way, live around high tension lines for a while and see if you don't develope some sort of cancer. Tesla was a genious, no doubt, and is the reason we use 120V AC today. He BEAT edison! If he hadn't, we would be using DC in our houses today. Back to the point though, if you were to use "waves of electricity" to power your car, understand that the waves will be EVERYWHERE! We are inundated by waves of every sort everyday (radio, TV, light, UV radiation, cell phone, etc.). Fortunately they are of low power, otherwise our own bodies would short circuit and fry. WE have no fuses. Run a little current across our hearts and see what happens. Tesla WAS a genious, but was shortsighted as far as knowing "human circuits". As far as the Tesla roadster, he or his heirs have nothing to do with it, Tesla is merely a name given to this creation.
Good points. There are wireless ways to transport AC current now. My friend used it to wirelessly power the repeaters for his Ethernet network. It steps up the voltage to like 50,000 volts, then another one steps it back down. I need to ask him where he got it, I think. www.thinkgeek.com
Yea, the new Tesla roadster uses the name to honor the inventor. Tesla (the inventor) did make a car towards the end of his lifetime though. We know it is electric, but we can't find any reference to it.
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06:23 PM
Austrian Import Member
Posts: 3919 From: Monterey, CA Registered: Feb 2007
Does anybody know yet, what kind of gas mileage to expect out of Ecotec's, or Supercharged Ecotec's? If there hasn't been any testing yet, any educated (derived with some "fancy formula" from the car the engine came from and applied to the Fiero (based on weight, fwd vs. rwd., etc.)? I do know that those would be educated guesses, so please don't say that one person is wrong, or right-er than others. I figure we'll get different numbers, - split the difference, - and come up with some kind of "ballpark estimate".
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06:46 PM
flames4me Member
Posts: 915 From: Woodbury MN / Hammond WI Registered: Jun 2005
I get less than 10mpg's with my v8 fiero... is this good enough mileage for you? lol, jk.
Seriously though, I think the most cost effective (money saved on gas compared to money spent on the swap) would be a nice 87 or 88 duke with a 5-speed getrag and cruise control and just do minor modifications to that stock motor and car to make it fuel efficient... weight reduction, differant intake and exhaust from later model cars as stated earlier in this thread, etc.
I would love to stumble upon a fiero like this but for now I just have another car for gas mileage... Geo.
------------------ 1986 Silver 5 speed Fiero 3.4 DOHC Bored .30, Fully balanced and blueprinted 13.93@101mph as it is on the street. ... ... ! 350ci 400hp/tq SBC, 4 bolt main Spec Stage 3, Nitrous Oxide, many extras. 87 GT 5-speed Getrag, power everything.
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08:29 PM
May 29th, 2007
cold fiero Member
Posts: 90 From: Wetaskiwin, Alberta, Canada Registered: Aug 2003
Stick with the Duke. Swap in an Economy 4-sp trans or 5-sp Isuzu. Get some good LRR (Low Rolling Resistance) tires and run about 45 psi. Get a MPG gauge or Vacuum gauge and drive more efficiently.
In my opinion the biggest mistake of the 20th century was following Edison and not Tesla's model for wireless electricity distribution. Tesla was brilliant but misunderstood. Only now is the potential for wireless electricity being explored. If perfected electric cars wouldn't need batteries and have unlimited range with a series of towers similar to cell phone towers.
Actually we have been following Tesla's model, albeit the one that power companies can tax you on. AC line current and transformers were Tesla's ideas. You cant tax wireless, so it makes little to no sense to use it on a distribution scale at this stage in evolution of culture.
First of all, the tesla is running on basically 6,000+ computer batteries. This alone jacks up the price. Alot of R&D was put into this work of art, especially the batteries. As far as Tesla's idea for wireless power, think of it this way, live around high tension lines for a while and see if you don't develope some sort of cancer. Tesla was a genious, no doubt, and is the reason we use 120V AC today. He BEAT edison! If he hadn't, we would be using DC in our houses today. Back to the point though, if you were to use "waves of electricity" to power your car, understand that the waves will be EVERYWHERE! We are inundated by waves of every sort everyday (radio, TV, light, UV radiation, cell phone, etc.). Fortunately they are of low power, otherwise our own bodies would short circuit and fry. WE have no fuses. Run a little current across our hearts and see what happens. Tesla WAS a genious, but was shortsighted as far as knowing "human circuits". As far as the Tesla roadster, he or his heirs have nothing to do with it, Tesla is merely a name given to this creation.
Most radio waves are too large a wavelength to affect you much. Not only that, the skin effect (ironically refered to as the Faraday cage effect) keep the induced current in your skin instead of inside your body. Any sort of high powered wireless power transmission is harmless unless you get right next to the transmitter, and even then its only burns to your skin. (People that work on radio antennas know what I'm talking about)
[This message has been edited by AP2k (edited 05-30-2007).]
Good name for a car , just read a book about him, must check out your link when I get home (limited internet access here at work). 
. Even with in town driving when I got back this week I got ~350km out of 30L and I don't drive far in town so the car never really warms up.
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