I am in the process of replacing intake,valve cover and exhaust gaskets on my 86 2.8 SE. I wan't to replace the A/C compressor while I'm at it. As the car can't be driven to a shop to have the R-12 removed,can I do it ? I have a recovery bottle(bought it at auction) hoses & guage set.I don't have a vacuum pump,but can rent one. If someone could walk me thru the process,it will solve my problem.The recovery bottle has a fitting with two valves.One has a blue knob the other is red. There is also a male electrical plug on top.someone told me it hooked up to a A/C machine to measure how much was in the bottle.I don't wan't to damage the Ozone,can anyone help??

Thanks Bob

My compliments for trying to do this responsibly, rather than just venting your system into the atmosphere. Here are a few thoughts:

1) Ideally, you want to recover refrigerant from the system until the gauge pressure drops to zero. You do not have to evacuate the system below zero pressure until you are ready to recharge it.

2) It will be difficult to recover refrigerant into your cylinder without a pump, since the flow of refrigerant will stop as soon as the pressure and temperature in the recovery cylinder equalizes with the pressure and temperature of the refrigerant remaining in the system. One way that will work if the recovery cylinder doesn't have a lot of air in it is to pack the cylinder in ice ... the colder the better ... but it will be slow. Use the blue (suction side) valve and fitting on the cylinder. This will cause refrigerant entering the cylinder to condense, which lowers the pressure and sucks more refrigerant from the system. This method will only suck the system down to a gauge pressure of 20 to 30 psi, but it will eventually transfer most of the liquid refrigerant from the car into the recovery cylinder. This process will take a couple of hours, but it's probably the technique I would use if I were in your position.

3) HVAC supply stores sell special plastic bags for refrigerant recovery. You just blow the system down into the bag, seal it, and then take it somewhere that has a recovery machine. If your refrigerant is pure, unadulterated R-12, they may even accept it for free.

Remember, after opening the system to the atmosphere for more than a few minutes (e.g. to replace the compressor), you will also need to replace the accumulator and orifice tube before evacuating and recharging the system. As an added incentive, the warranty on most compressors requires that you do this. If you don't have access to a cheap source of reclaimed R-12, now would be an excellent time to convert the system to R-134a. And whatever you do, don't forget to add the proper type and amount of refrigerant oil before recharging.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 07-10-2007).]

Marvin

Thanks for your help,I need a little more,if you don't mind.I can get a vacuum pump and have a guage/hoses.If it is the best way to remove the freon,how to I hook it up ? Do I drain the system from the high pressure fitting at the vehicle to the red knob valve on the recovery tank ? Or ???? If you will,take me step by step,using a pump.

Thanks again
Bob

As a law abiding citizen of the USA you have the legal right to just vent the stuff to the atmosphere, but you cannot if you are a business. No harm done, what do you think happens to systems that leak or get damaged? They just vent..... It is common knowledge that it is found 134A is actually as much or more harmful as the old stuff. Vent away. It is a good time to change over to 134A anyway.
I'll put my flame suit on now.

quote Originally posted by typhoon: As a law abiding citizen of the USA you have the legal right to just vent the stuff to the atmosphere, but you cannot if you are a business. No harm done, what do you think happens to systems that leak or get damaged? They just vent..... It is common knowledge that it is found 134A is actually as much or more harmful as the old stuff. Vent away. It is a good time to change over to 134A anyway. I'll put my flame suit on now.

I'm not going to flame you, but wow. I can't believe anyone would actually tell someone to vent the a/c. It's not just bad for the atmosphere it is poisonous and can kill you if you breathe it in.

Not a good idea, especially if he has all the proper tools to do it the right way.

quote Originally posted by typhoon: As a law abiding citizen of the USA you have the legal right to just vent the stuff to the atmosphere, but you cannot if you are a business. No harm done, what do you think happens to systems that leak or get damaged? They just vent..... It is common knowledge that it is found 134A is actually as much or more harmful as the old stuff. Vent away. It is a good time to change over to 134A anyway. I'll put my flame suit on now.

I'm not going to flame you either. I'll just point out that venting R12 to the atmosphere is a violation of Federal law - it carries a $50,000 fine. Doesn't matter who you are; same law applies to everyone.

Don't get caught venting:

July 31, 1998: Venting CFC-12
Randy Lee Christensen pleaded guilty in U.S. District Court for the Central District of California in Los Angeles of violating the Clean Air Act. Christensen admitted to illegally venting CFC-12 into the atmosphere at the Santa Anna, CA-based C&C Distribution. The illegal venting took place when Christensen installed the replacement refrigerant HC-12a, which EPA has prohibited as a replacement for CFC-12 in auto air-conditioners, into automobile air conditioning systems. Christensen could serve up to five years in prison and be fined as much as $250,000.

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/enforce/enforce98.html

No flames here, but I do regret that you chose to post incorrect information so assertively.

quote Originally posted by typhoon: As a law abiding citizen of the USA you have the legal right to just vent the stuff to the atmosphere, but you cannot if you are a business.

Whuffo is correct. The same law, and the same penalties, apply to everyone. The only difference is that an individual is probably a little less likely to get caught. But why illegally vent R-12 when you can dispose of it properly (and ethically) at no cost? Some refrigerant reclaimers will even pay you for recovered R-12.

quote It is common knowledge that it is found 134A is actually as much or more harmful as the old stuff.

That is just flat wrong information, on both counts. R-134a is neither "as much or more harmful" than R-12, nor is that factoid "common knowledge." I suggest that you educate yourself on the subject. It's easy. The information you need to know for the EPA 609 Automotive Refrigerant Certification is pretty simple, and it is available free from many sources on the Internet ... including the EPA itself.

And to that California smog inspector who sometimes visits: The EPA does not make laws per se, they make rules which are, in effect, THE SAME as laws. Who knew the EPA had their own separate court system?

August, 1998: Failure to Use Certified Technicians or Approved Equipment
Granite Falls, NC-based Valley Chevrolet-Geo was ordered by an EPA administrative law judge to pay a penalty of $34,2254 for violations of the Clean Air Act. An EPA Administrative Penalty Order has alleged that Valley Chevrolet-Geo failed to use certified technicians as well as the proper recycling or recovery equipment while handling CFC-containing refrigerants. EPA acted on a tip from a former Valley employee, and conducted an investigation of the company's ozone- depleting refrigerant handling practices at its body shop and service facility. This investigation resulted in the issuance of an administrative Penalty Order. After both sides were unable to reach an agreement on the matter, EPA was granted a motion for an accelerated decision on liability and penalty.

quote Originally posted by Hudini: Who knew the EPA had their own separate court system?

Most Federal agencies (including the FAA) administer their regulations this way. Believe me, an Administrative Law Judge is a lot better to have deciding such things than the bureaucrat who initiated the violation. You usually (but not always) have the right to appeal an adverse decision by an Administrative Law Judge to Federal District Court, but the agencies still win about 95% of such appeals.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 07-10-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: No flames here, but I do regret that you chose to post incorrect information so assertively. That is just flat wrong information, on both counts. R-134a is neither "as much or more harmful" than R-12, nor is that factoid "common knowledge." I suggest that you educate yourself on the subject. It's easy. The information you need to know for the EPA 609 Automotive Refrigerant Certification is pretty simple, and it is available free from many sources on the Internet ... including the EPA itself.

I was always told that 134a was more harmful to humans.

edit... more harmful to humans than R12. Just what i was told.

[This message has been edited by Jrgicehc (edited 07-10-2007).]

I am section 608 and 609 certified I'm licensed to work on any Type 1 2 or 3 or automotive systems. Knowing this I do not remember the exact percentage required to recover. But I will say this you say you have a tank and can get a vacuum pump. If the tank is empty then you could draw a vacuum onto it then use that vacuum to remove the freon in the system. You really need a reclaim pump bad though. In an emergency Low buck way of doing it you could use a refrigerator compressor that has already been removed. any compressor can also serve as a pump. You would need to braze on fittings to attach the lines to. Once this is done use this pump to draw a vacuum on the EMPTY tank first. Attach the output of the pump to the tank with the valve on the tank OFF. Now attach the vacuum side of the pump to the car ANY PORT IS OK. Put a cap on the remaining port. Pack the tank in ICE to help with containing the pressures. When you hooked to the car you will have heard the transfer start but remember to OPEN the valve on the tank. Once you hear the hissing stop Turn on the pump.

Oh along with the hefty fine. If the witness can supply proof such as photo or film then the EPA will reward them $5,000. A man in the company that I once worked for got caught by a security camera cutting open a line because he didn't want the trash from the burned out system in his bottle. The guard turned him in and got a nice check for doing it. So remember this.

Onto the topic of 134A it was the exact same chemical compound that is contained in the cans of computer duster air. EXACT SAME.
TetraFluoroEthane 1,1,1,2 Now due to studies showing that 134A may aid in global warming canned air has bee changed to DiFluoroEthane 1,1

[This message has been edited by DIY_Stu (edited 07-10-2007).]

ok, now to ask the first and most important question:

does your system even have any r12 in it?

I ask, because most people don't replace compressors without a reason, and most of the times the reason is the compressor has leaked, and thus leaked out all the freon.
before you go getting too far into this, put a guage on the low port and check the pressure. unless you have the adapter, you won;t be able to connect to the highside port anyway....
for private use, the recovery bag is the best and easiest way to go. the tank is a PITA, especially without the right pump.

Yup, it's getting hot in here...............

tjm4fun

The reason I was wanting to remove the freon,was to take the compressor out,as I think the clutch is shot. It started to screech and whine,and now it will not run the compressor. I have pressure in the system...is there a way I can replace the cluch with out removing the compressor from the vehicle? P.S. I can turn the pulley and the cluch by hand ,so they are not siezed up. And if is the compresor making the noise not the cluch,could there still be pressure?
Thnks again Bob

Yes, it's possible to replace the compressor clutch. Unfortunately, it's just about impossible to do while the compressor is mounted on the car...

If you're careful and have the right tools, you could lower the compressor out the bottom and change the clutch without disconnecting the lines. However, it's quite possible that your compressor is bad and this is what caused the clutch problems. Probably best to just replace the compressor.

You could check with your local freon recyclers. Many of them have a "plastic bag" that you can attach to your system - vent the freon into the bag then take the bag back for recycling. And plug those disconnected AC hoses / lines immediately after disconnecting them; the cleaner you keep the system the happier you'll be when it's all back together and working and you're viewing the bill...

And thank you for taking the time to recycle the freon responsibly.

no matter what method is used to get out MOST of the refrigerant, there will be some left due to the fact that as the pressure is lowered,so is the temperature(some will condense to a liquid).Run just the fan(inside the car) for a short time and if there is any freon left you will have raised it's temperature enough that there will also be a rise in pressure that you can again lower by whatever method you have chosen.

Not to correct anybody, but I replaced the compressor clutch on my old SE v-6 while the compressor was in the car. It was probably easier than removing the whole compressor.

To carnut122

How did you know it was the cluch and not the compressor ? I do not see any sign of a leak on mine ,no oil etc.and there is pressure in the system. I put 12 volts to the clutch and could not hear it engage. And when replacing the cluch did you remove the wheel,splash guard etc ? Thanks for any help you can give me. Bob

quote Originally posted by RDANA: To carnut122 How did you know it was the cluch and not the compressor ? I do not see any sign of a leak on mine ,no oil etc.and there is pressure in the system. I put 12 volts to the clutch and could not hear it engage. And when replacing the cluch did you remove the wheel,splash guard etc ? Thanks for any help you can give me. Bob

Did you connect the 12 volts directly to the terminals on the compressor with the proper polarity? There are several switches and relays managing the clutch engagement - including two inside the compressor (for high and low pressure). You also want to look closely at the terminals on the compressor and the connector to make sure you get a good clean connection.

Whuffo - do you know where to get these plastic bags in San Jose?

[This message has been edited by Fierari (edited 07-11-2007).]

quote Originally posted by carnut122: Not to correct anybody, but I replaced the compressor clutch on my old SE v-6 while the compressor was in the car. It was probably easier than removing the whole compressor.

That's on a V6 - the DA-6 or HR-6 compressors are pretty easy to change the clutch on. The 4 cylinder cars use a V-5 compressor and you need to use a puller to get it off. There's not enough room for the puller while the compressor's on the car...

Bob -

I realize that this probably isn't what you want to hear, but I think you have only two reasonable choices at this point:

1) Find a refrigerant recovery bag and just discharge your system into it.

2) Leave your A/C system as-is until your car is back together and you can drive it to a shop with refrigerant recovery equipment. You can then change out the compressor at your leisure.

It's not too big a job to change out the HR6 compressor in a V6 Fiero, but I wouldn't recommend replacing just the clutch, for the following reasons:

1) A rebuilt clutch alone will be more than half the cost of a complete rebuilt compressor and clutch ... with a warranty.

2) Replacing the clutch requires specialized tools.

3) I have successfully replaced an HR6 shaft seal, which requires partial disassembly of the clutch, with the compressor out of the car. While replacing the clutch in the car may be possible, I definitely wouldn't want to try it.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 07-11-2007).]