Ok, but what other mods do I need to do if I dropped a 3.4 in? Can I just hook up the engine? I doubt it.
Yes, REALLY!
Unlike the situation with engine swaps involving V8s or the 3800 SC, for example, with the pushrod 3.4L swap I mentioned earlier, you basically transfer the externals such as the "Fiero" intake manifold and even the Fiero's valve covers from the the stock Fiero 2.8L engine to the 3.4L engine.
There are some other steps as well which I can't get into at this hour, but MANY people here have already done this swap, and the 3.4L swap probably is the easiest engine swap there is for the Fiero.
Much more importantly from what you said you wanted, most people wouldn't even know just by looking at it that you had the 20% larger pushrod 3.4L engine swap in your Fiero instead of the stock pushrod 2.8L Fiero engine.
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07:41 AM
Francis T Member
Posts: 6620 From: spotsylvania va. usa Registered: Oct 2003
Originally posted by jscott1: It is a pretty looking P.O.S. though. That was the one thing that I always liked when the Fiero first came out. I would hate to give mine up just to gain a few ponies.
Its not just a few ponies you're giving up. You're giving up a heck of a lot of useful RPM ! With a better intake the engine will pull strong well beyond that 4.5 K wall the stock intake imposes. You wont beliver the dif in driveabilty another 3+ K RPM will give you. It's like having another gear! Just ask anyone that has switch our intakes.
Yes, but a new chip is burned and inserted in the ECM. This is to use the 17lbs fuel injectors that come on the 3.4L versus the 15lbs that come on the Fiero. This engine is a significant bump in power and is flat fun to drive. The extra work involved is minor compared to other swaps and can be done with hand tools. Do a search on 3.4L swaps and you can see several that are well documented. Only someone who actually knew what to look for can tell the difference.
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12:34 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
the 60 degree v6 family has had a pretty dang good run. yes, it is a crappy "performance motor". especially in its iron headed pushrod configuration. but, there really were not many "ready" options for the Fiero at the time. yes, todays alum DOHC motors walk all over these old iron pigs. so, I guess it depends on how you define "bad" now. if you line up all available motors from "good" to "bad" - I am sure you'd find our old 2.8 iron head motor on the far side from "good".....
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12:39 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
Originally posted by Francis T: Its not just a few ponies you're giving up. You're giving up a heck of a lot of useful RPM ! With a better intake the engine will pull strong well beyond that 4.5 K wall the stock intake imposes. You wont beliver the dif in driveabilty another 3+ K RPM will give you. It's like having another gear! Just ask anyone that has switch our intakes.
Do you have a link to your intake? I tried to follow the one in your sig and I couldn't find it.
Shown below is a picture of a Trueleo intake manifold that Raydar posted in 2005 on page 17 of the long-running "Technical Discussion and Questions" thread titled, "hi-flo manifold update:"
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:
The Trueleo is a fine performance manifold, but for the benefit of rwalley, the originator of the present thread, that picture should make it clear that few if any will mistake the design of a Trueleo manifold for that of a stock Fiero manifold. I mention this because of rwalley's earlier comment about stock appearances:
quote
Originally posted by rwalley: See, I want to leave it stock, because one thing that impressed me the most was when I opened up the engine compartment...it said "Hi, I'm a Fiero" right there on the intake manifold....I'm all about subtle improvements more than major mods.
For fun I suppose one could put a "Fiero" decal (sold at http://www.rodneydickman.com and elsewhere) on top of a Trueleo intake manifold and be sure to fool somebody, but I doubt it would fool a reasonably knowledgeable Fiero enthusiast. The 3.4L engine swap, in contrast, is much harder to detect. Again, this isn't a slam against the Trueleo intake manifold as I myself likely will get one for my own 3.4L swap, but "subtle" (to use your term above, rwalley) the Trueleo intake isn't.
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08:35 PM
tjm4fun Member
Posts: 3781 From: Long Island, NY USA Registered: Feb 2006
I was going to pass on this, but let's look at the question... is the 2.8 a bad motor? absolutely not. it will run almost forever driven sanely. is the 2.8 a performance motor? yes, but it takes work, and knowledge, (more than most of the naysayers of this motor have), which is why they slam it. is it worth the price to make it get it's max potential vs an engine swap? not really. is the 2.8 a performance motor compared to what is available in current cars? not really. old technology does have to give way to new at some point. so there you have what you really asked. if you drive the car with some reserve and don't straightline race it constantly, the 2.8 is probably fine for you. if you want to run 1/4's and light to light, probably not the best choice. if keeping things stock looking is important, then you are sorta limited. the 3.4 upgrade is the realistic best bet as you have all the original fiero badged parts bolted back on, and unless you check casting numbers almost indistiguishable from the stock. after that you start moving away from the stock look. the Truleo is a bolt on performance boost to the 2.8. a better cam, better pistons, better valves and most importantly a proper head porting will round it out. add all that up and you see it is not cost effective to work the 2.8 vs some of the other swaps, as proper machine shop costs run up very quickly.
NOT BAD BUT HEAVY LOW POWER and little tuning headroom
thats why swaps are so common
quad turbo sunbird or eco-tec lighter and more power with turbo or tuning 3400-3500-3900 more power stock bolts up ect 3800 n and super heavy but power is there and eazyer to add more with tuning V-8's real power and maybe low weight [alloy] if you spend the bucks
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
I think it sounds nice enough and moves the car down the road with enough power for everyday. If someone wants to race I let them follow me home and they change their mind.
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06:24 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
I was going to pass on this, but let's look at the question... is the 2.8 a bad motor? absolutely not. it will run almost forever driven sanely. is the 2.8 a performance motor? yes, but it takes work, and knowledge, (more than most of the naysayers of this motor have), which is why they slam it. is it worth the price to make it get it's max potential vs an engine swap? not really. is the 2.8 a performance motor compared to what is available in current cars? not really. old technology does have to give way to new at some point. so there you have what you really asked. if you drive the car with some reserve and don't straightline race it constantly, the 2.8 is probably fine for you. if you want to run 1/4's and light to light, probably not the best choice. if keeping things stock looking is important, then you are sorta limited. the 3.4 upgrade is the realistic best bet as you have all the original fiero badged parts bolted back on, and unless you check casting numbers almost indistiguishable from the stock. after that you start moving away from the stock look. the Truleo is a bolt on performance boost to the 2.8. a better cam, better pistons, better valves and most importantly a proper head porting will round it out. add all that up and you see it is not cost effective to work the 2.8 vs some of the other swaps, as proper machine shop costs run up very quickly.
what engine is this NOT true for?
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08:29 AM
Francis T Member
Posts: 6620 From: spotsylvania va. usa Registered: Oct 2003
Lol, even in red with the Fiero name on it, most will see it as an aftermarket race item. Four barrel mod may fool a few more.
As for not being cost effective compared to a swap, depends on what you're after and if you put any value at all on your time.
A 2.8 with only a better intake, headers and chip, will out proform a stcok 3.4 PR engine. I'm not sure about the cost of a 4bbl conversion with Sprint headers, I can say that; our intake, headers and chip cost just under $1K and can be done in a weekend or even a day with a some help. That maybe more than the cost of some swaps, but most swaps will take more than a weekend to do; just read some the swap writeups. And for the newbees, bolt-ons are a lot eaiser to do than engine swaps. One other thing to keep in mind; how good is that, say, $200-$400 3.4 PR youre going to buy? Has it sat long enough for valve seals dry out etc? Swaps are a good way to go, but they have thier +s and -s just like 2.8 mods. And with Bolt-Ons, if you save your stock parts you can sell the car to the Pure Stock OEM too.
Good or bad can be very subjective terms when applied to rating an engine. The 60* V6 family of P/R engines were reliable runners that made only moderate horsepower and gave fair gas mileage, but they served the purpose that they were designed for. If you expect to have the fastest Fiero around, you won't do it with this engine. However, the 3.4L has been turbocharged and built to produce 327 HP and 397 ft lbs of torque (that propelled an F Body car in the 13's ) but the cost of getting the engine to this power level is expensive. As a platform for all out horsepower; you can do better starting with a 3800SC, turbo 3900 , turbo 3400 DOHC or V8 but as a steady reliable runner that will give your Fiero more go with the smallest amount of effort, the 3.4L is relaible and will work fine.
------------------ 87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds 2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress Engine Controls, PCM goodies, re-programming & odd electronics stuff " I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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10:07 AM
Eclipse Member
Posts: 2040 From: Woodstock, Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 2004
Good or bad can be very subjective terms when applied to rating an engine. The 60* V6 family of P/R engines were reliable runners that made only moderate horsepower and gave fair gas mileage, but they served the purpose that they were designed for. If you expect to have the fastest Fiero around, you won't do it with this engine. However, the 3.4L has been turbocharged and built to produce 327 HP and 397 ft lbs of torque (that propelled an F Body car in the 13's ) but the cost of getting the engine to this power level is expensive. As a platform for all out horsepower; you can do better starting with a 3800SC, turbo 3900 , turbo 3400 DOHC or V8 but as a steady reliable runner that will give your Fiero more go with the smallest amount of effort, the 3.4L is relaible and will work fine.
See, some of your guys will probably jump on me for this comment...but I don't view the Fiero as a performance car. Its more of a cruising-looker car to me. It just has some unfortunate flaws that deny it the performance post without major modification. Don't get me wrong though, the Fiero has performance potential, but for what it is, I would take other cars for performance over a Fiero. Besides, I'm the kind of guy that thinks racing should stay on the track and I'm not looking to blow away cars from light to light. Not to say that I'm not a spirited driver...but generally I leave that spirited driving stuff to back roads and mountain passes. I'm more worried about the fact that I have a 146k on a moderately cared for engine and I just want to know if its nearing the end of its life or if I can take it for another 100k. So far it seems like I can take it another 100k before I need a new engine and so that is comforting. As far as upgrading it, it seems to me that bolt-ons are the way to go for now and then when I finally do put in a 3.4L, I can just bolt-up all my former upgrades and then start adding the heavy stuff like cam's.
Am I crazy to think that a supercharger is a bolt on mod? I've done it in a weekend on my I30t and it didn't seem too difficult to me. So I just consider it easy. Are they hard to put on GM engines? The hardest part for me was figuring out how to route piping and where to put the intercooler, but the actual install seemed pretty straight-forward to me.
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02:39 PM
Blacktree Member
Posts: 20770 From: Central Florida Registered: Dec 2001
I value handling over straight-line speed. My (somewhat modified) 2.8 V6 provides enough power to push the car through a turn, which is enough for me. It's also lighter than some of the other engine options (3400TDC, SBC, 3800). Actually, one of the plusses to the Duke-to-2.8 swap is that the 2.8 weighs almost the same as the Duke. I didn't have to re-tune my suspension after the swap.
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03:10 PM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15571 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
On second thought I see that you are located in the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia. That translates to a 3.4L ( same look as 2.8L) or a very involved and expensive CARB certification of another engine choice. IMO what will probably do you in with an engine w 146K miles on it will be the tailpipe emissons.
quote
Originally posted by rwalley: See, some of your guys will probably jump on me for this comment...but I don't view the Fiero as a performance car. Its more of a cruising-looker car to me. It just has some unfortunate flaws that deny it the performance post without major modification. Don't get me wrong though, the Fiero has performance potential, but for what it is, I would take other cars for performance over a Fiero. Besides, I'm the kind of guy that thinks racing should stay on the track and I'm not looking to blow away cars from light to light. Not to say that I'm not a spirited driver...but generally I leave that spirited driving stuff to back roads and mountain passes. I'm more worried about the fact that I have a 146k on a moderately cared for engine and I just want to know if its nearing the end of its life or if I can take it for another 100k. So far it seems like I can take it another 100k before I need a new engine and so that is comforting. As far as upgrading it, it seems to me that bolt-ons are the way to go for now and then when I finally do put in a 3.4L, I can just bolt-up all my former upgrades and then start adding the heavy stuff like cam's.
Am I crazy to think that a supercharger is a bolt on mod? I've done it in a weekend on my I30t and it didn't seem too difficult to me. So I just consider it easy. Are they hard to put on GM engines? The hardest part for me was figuring out how to route piping and where to put the intercooler, but the actual install seemed pretty straight-forward to me.
------------------ 87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds 2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress Engine Controls, PCM goodies, re-programming & odd electronics stuff " I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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04:46 PM
rwalley Member
Posts: 73 From: San Jose, CA, USA Registered: Aug 2007
Am I crazy to think that a supercharger is a bolt on mod? I've done it in a weekend on my I30t and it didn't seem too difficult to me.
I'm not familiar with the Infiniti I30t, but I'm curious: Did it originally have a supercharger available as an option? If not, how did it pass California's visual inspection during its emissions testing, or did you not have it registered in California in the first place?
I would think a Fiero engine with a supercharger on it also would fail the visual inspection in California unless, of course, it wasn't registered there, or you removed the supercharger from the Fiero engine just prior to every emissions inspection.
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09:57 PM
PFF
System Bot
crytical point Member
Posts: 569 From: sanford FL USA Registered: Feb 2006
The 2.8 is a good motor and has its short falls like every other engine but if your wanting to have a little better performance then get a better intake and exhaust system and get a chip for it and you will be set. But if you want more power than that and maintain a 60V6 in there then go with a hybrid motor and a intake/exhaust with obd2 and you should be good for atleast 200hp if you go 3.4 iron block with 3600 (non VVT) heads, with a cam and more breathing upgrades. A 60V6 can be boosted with a turbo or supercharger or go with a N/A set up and have a really reliable power plant that can get good MPG and easy and cheap to install. Next to other engines like the 3800, SBC, ecotec, 3400TDC, quad 4, etc it is still a good engine but in the end you will have the same problems as they will ..........Crappy Transmissions and weak drive shafts difference is you will be less prone to breaking them because you will have less power but good reliability. The question "Is this a BAD motor" is a loaded question for EVERY engine and don't let anyone pull one over on you because the 3.4TDC has a bad track record, the 3800 went through the same evolution as the 60V6 just has 10+years of development on it, Quad4 has a weak cyl head, Ecotec has little problems but putting it in a Fiero is a Pain, and the SBC guys go through drive train parts like they are going out of style and just ask some of them. Just wait till the DOHC 60V6 becomes a swap for the Fiero and you have a choice from 2.8-3.9 and twin turbo is a option and can get 400hp 400tq and still get 28 city mpg. I see those engines replacing the 3800SC because even they are "Out dated" compared to the new 60V6 and capable of just as much power and lighter and better Mileage.
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10:10 PM
rwalley Member
Posts: 73 From: San Jose, CA, USA Registered: Aug 2007
I'm not familiar with the Infiniti I30t, but I'm curious: Did it originally have a supercharger available as an option? If not, how did it pass California's visual inspection during its emissions testing, or did you not have it registered in California in the first place?
I would think a Fiero engine with a supercharger on it also would fail the visual inspection in California unless, of course, it wasn't registered there, or you removed the supercharger from the Fiero engine just prior to every emissions inspection.
No the I30t did not come with a supercharger originally. Any modified vehicle with equipment that did not come originally from the manufacturer must be taken to a referee station where they look at it and confirm that emissions equipment hasn't been tampered with and that the car is within normal limits for the Smog check. I just got a smog check before installing the supercharger, so I have another 2 years before I need to deal with that.
Interesting.
