I have a feeling I'm going to get quite a few interesting responses to this.

Is the 2.8l V6 a bad motor? Simply speaking, as motors go, with proper maintenance will it last? What is proper maintenance to a 2.8l V6? (To a 1930 Ford, proper maintenance is replacing the water pump every few months) I don't want that kind of maintenance.

No, it's only a bad motor if you treat it like a hotrod.

No comment

The 2.8 isn't really a bad motor. But it's an old design, using obsolete technology. It seems people like to compare it to newer engines, and when it doesn't stack up (duhhh... ), they proclaim it to be a "steaming gutless turd" or some such.

Obsolete technology? Wasnt the 2.8 v6 the first gm production engine that used tuned port injection?

I've got 175,000 miles on my stock 2.8 in my Formula. The 2.8 was a fairly modern engine when it came out, but remember that engine has been around since 1980. The Fiero 2.8 was the highest output 2.8 V6 GM had when it was in production.

Consider the time. In 1979, the last Pontiac 400 cube V8 was sold, and it put out about 220 HP.
In 1980, the Turbo 301 (4.9 L) came out, with about 200-210 HP. That was America's first production turbo V8 passenger car.

In '82, when Pontiac stopped making their own V8 engines and went with Chevy 5.0L in the new Firebirds, your options were carbureated V8 with 145 HP or Cross-Fire Injection with 165 HP. And yet, when the Fiero GT came out, it's 140 HP V6 had nearly has much horsepower at the V8 engines of the day.

For it's day, it was a good engine, and it's still a reliable one today. It's been upgraded over the years and gotten better and better with each version. The 3.1, 3.4, 3400 SFI, etc. all are based on the same engine. The top of the line 60° V6 today is the 3.9L in the G6 GTP. It puts out 240 HP, normally aspirated. Just a couple years ago, a 3.8L V6 needed a supercharger to do the same thing.

The 2.8 doesn't compare well against the best of today's engines, but for what it is, it's a solid little engine.

Short answer - no.

Like above, it is older engine design but pushrod engines can reliably produce 1 hp per cu.in. when set up correctly, naturally aspirated.

Arn

quote Originally posted by InaneCathode: Obsolete technology? Wasnt the 2.8 v6 the first gm production engine that used tuned port injection?

Here in the 21st century, the 2.8 V6 is obsolete. That's not to say it's a bad motor. Hell, I have one in my own car and like it very much.

hey guys speaking of the 2.8 motor......i have an 85 gt i got a week ago .....it has 75,000 miles....runs great....the thing that worries me is the oily build up on the block underneath...its all over the place just built up from over the years...i know its somewhat normal for old engines but what can be done to clean all that crap off and make SURE its not seriously leaking bad anywhere on the block....and overall just to freshen/clean up the engine

one other thing i notice is that is runs pretty hot but not terrible.....the gauge might get up there breifly but always seems to cool down quikly.....the previous owner said it would be wise to run a switch for the fan to keep it on more often.....how good will that keep engine temp down...is it a MUST to do on this motor....and is there a link to a DIY anywhere?

[This message has been edited by ForceFedFlesh (edited 08-25-2007).]

quote Originally posted by ForceFedFlesh: hey guys speaking of the 2.8 motor......i have an 85 gt i got a week ago .....it has 75,000 miles....runs great....the thing that worries me is the oily build up on the block underneath...its all over the place just built up from over the years...i know its somewhat normal for old engines but what can be done to clean all that crap off and make SURE its not seriously leaking bad anywhere on the block....and overall just to freshen/clean up the engine one other thing i notice is that is runs pretty hot but not terrible.....the gauge might get up there breifly but always seems to cool down quikly.....the previous owner said it would be wise to run a switch for the fan to keep it on more often.....how good will that keep engine temp down...is it a MUST to do on this motor....and is there a link to a DIY anywhere?

Can of engine cleaner and a coin operated car wash. That or a pressure washer.

Also, the fan doesn't come on until 235°F. If it comes on roughtly half way between the 200° mark and the red zone, you're fine. You can get a low temp fan switch to bring the fan on earlier if you like. Rodney Dickman sells them. http://www.rodneydickman.com

I like it, I am out to make one that people respect (probably because I can't afford a swap) but with like 3 mods who knows. But mine ran for 12 years, sat for 6, and with an oil change she started right up, I think its good motor, just not the fastest.

Im no expert on the V6 more of a duke guy ,,but this engine is VERY reliable under normal driving conditions newer engines will produce more horse power , with the exhaust and intake ported this engine delivers eXcellent miles per gallon,,I have just purchased a V 6 G T and am in the process of a major do over! one thing I will do is port and check miles per gallon before and after,, I want 130hp and 24 to 26 around town,,do not sweat reliability of 2.8 many go 250,000 miles of course the average v6 is shot by this time the V 6 and the automatic tranny are RELIABLE,one of first questions i ask when i join fiero club was about reliability of auto the v6 and auto are tough cookies any engine ran constanly over its limit will eventually fail ,, the fieros have many problems the engines are no problem

I don't thik it is a bad engine, but I do think the crankshaft is the week link. I've torn down about six fiero 2.8s and all had trashed center rod bearings. But to be fair the were driven very hard, the engines had anywhere from 60k to 150k miles and all had #3 and #4 rod bearings roached. I belive they fixed that week spot on the 3.1 and 3.4. thats just my opinion take it for what its worth

I pulled out my 2.5 4Cyl, and swapped in a 2.8 with a ported exhaust and power pulley underdrive kit, keeping my 5 speed isuzu tranny. The engine was high kms's but was completely resealed. It runs great, and I get a lot of kick! So far I love it, and it's not unlike the 3.1 I have in my 2003 Chev Malibu.

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Jay Brintnell
Southern Ontario Fiero Association
Yellow 85 Notchback(A.K.A. GodFearN)

The progress thread: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/077740.html

quote Originally posted by InaneCathode: Obsolete technology? Wasnt the 2.8 v6 the first gm production engine that used tuned port injection?

It's multiport injected. There is nothing tuned about those runners.

So it seems that the 2.8 is a reliable motor. I'm not too interested in performance...I have another car for that. But I would like to have at least 200hp. Possible without blowing it up?

200bhp or whp?

You can safely boost to 7psi if your engine is healthy, which puts down around 185 to the wheels. I cant imagine making that kind of power without boost or a bottle, but I guess anything is possoble.

200 hp is achievable but not with the Fiero intake and exhaust. Also, to make 200 hp reliably you'll be spending alot of money. You'll need blueprinting and balancing, high compression pistons, heavier conrods, heavier pushrods, reworked valves, heavy valve springs, lumpy cam, and lots of porting. A Trueleo intake and exhaust, or the Holley/Edelbrock setup.

I think the practical limit for the engine is around 170-180 N/A with a good build. That said, with a good build, and a turbo, the engine can probably run well over 200 hp, but for how long? Not sure about that one.

Arn

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Can of engine cleaner and a coin operated car wash. That or a pressure washer. Also, the fan doesn't come on until 235°F. If it comes on roughtly half way between the 200° mark and the red zone, you're fine. You can get a low temp fan switch to bring the fan on earlier if you like. Rodney Dickman sells them. http://www.rodneydickman.com

If you want it erally clean, get it up on jackstands, get ready to be wet,oily and dirty, and get a friend. Get a couple cans of engine brite a stiff plastic bristle brush and a hose. spray on the stuff, wait, scrub it good, spray it off, repeat. the only way to get to most places is put your body under the car.

I added a Switch to force the fans on. This weekend in the Grand Rapids auto show I had my fans running the whole time as traffic was moving at .5 miles an hour (Crappiest car show I have ever been to, you have to drive all over to see the cars) and while other classic cars were overheating around me I had cool temps.

quote Originally posted by rwalley: Is the 2.8l V6 a bad motor?

No, especially not for its time ... but it does have some weak points. The design of the oiling system, in particular, was less than ideal ... but that was improved in the later 3.1 and 3.4 motors.

quote Originally posted by 88GTNeverfinished: There is nothing tuned about those runners.

Care to explain that? Why are the intake runners so long if not for tuning purposes?

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 08-26-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: Care to explain that? Why are the intake runners so long if not for tuning?

Exactly, regardless of the style of fuel injection, the runners and the opening and closing of the intake valves create a resonance or a pulse and the length and diameter of those runners plays a critical part in how strong or weak that resonance is. That resonance acts like a small form of forced induction, drawing more air (or fuel, depending on type of injection) into the combustion chamber than would occur without it. Sort of like the tide at the beach, the stronger the incoming wave, the more sand and debris it will pull back into the ocean upon retracting.

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: Short answer - no. Like above, it is older engine design but pushrod engines can reliably produce 1 hp per cu.in. when set up correctly, naturally aspirated. Arn

Not this one.

Old and obsolete are two different concepts. Yes the L44 is old, but it's not obsolete...if properly maintained it can still get the job done. A hose and wagon is obsolete, because I can't drive to work everyday in a hose and wagon.

I drove a L4 Fiero for a year before I got a GT and I was simply amazed how much more power the V6 has. For it's time the Fiero motor was the high output version. I often warn people not to look at the 3.1L minivan motors because they were rated for LESS horsepower than the Fiero L44.

Yes there are many many newer and better engines, but if you have a decent running Fiero V6 you might as well drive it as long as you can, and when it's finally done, you can swap it for something better.

I'm not the original owner of my '85GT automatic by a long shot. It had 101K miles on it when I bought it. I have always assumed that it was pretty much stock. However, I put a Borla exhaust and high flow cat on it when I first got it. From a standing start it pulls extremely hard to about 50 maybe 60 mph, that's using 1st and 2nd gears, but when it hits 3rd the party's over. My '88GT 5spd, which I know to be stock with the original exhaust system (less than 10K miles on the car), doesn't come close to the accelaration of the '85 but it has much more on the top end. I think available gearing probably hurts the Fiero's V6 as much as anything.

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RickN
White 88GT 5spd
White 85GT Auto
White 99 F250SD 7.3PSD 6spd
1956 Ford 860 w/ Freeman Loader

quote Originally posted by LT-5Fiero: Exactly, regardless of the style of fuel injection, the runners and the opening and closing of the intake valves create a resonance or a pulse and the length and diameter of those runners plays a critical part in how strong or weak that resonance is. That resonance acts like a small form of forced induction, drawing more air (or fuel, depending on type of injection) into the combustion chamber than would occur without it. Sort of like the tide at the beach, the stronger the incoming wave, the more sand and debris it will pull back into the ocean upon retracting.

The way I understand it from Edelbrock (my Torker II intake as the example) the longer narrower runners help low end response with higher air flow speed at low end, but due to the narrower runners, start to starve at high rpm. The fatter shorter runners do not get the air moving fast enough at low rpm to get good power, but do a great job at high rpm when the engine is in a higher vacuum state and the air is naturally moving much faster.

You have to understand the workings of your vacuum cleaner to get the picture. Notice that when you put the crevice tool on, the suction goes way up as does the air speed. When you run the open end of the hose, the suction is less. Same pull on the motor, different appertures to pull the air through.

Arn

The intake runners in the 2.8 TPI intake are tuned for a relatively low RPM (something like 4000-4500RPM if I remember correctly)... which explains why the stock 2.8 runs out of air above 4500RPM. But that problem can be rectified with a different intake.

I guess my use of the word "obsolete" has ruffled some feathers. The word means "out of date". The crude ECM, bank-fire fuel injection, distributer ignition, and cylinder head design are in fact out of date, i.e. obsolete.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 08-26-2007).]

quote Originally posted by timgray: If you want it erally clean, get it up on jackstands, get ready to be wet,oily and dirty, and get a friend. Get a couple cans of engine brite a stiff plastic bristle brush and a hose. spray on the stuff, wait, scrub it good, spray it off, repeat. the only way to get to most places is put your body under the car. I added a Switch to force the fans on. This weekend in the Grand Rapids auto show I had my fans running the whole time as traffic was moving at .5 miles an hour (Crappiest car show I have ever been to, you have to drive all over to see the cars) and while other classic cars were overheating around me I had cool temps.

yea i will prolly do that sooner or later.....jack it up and clean it by hand......id like it to be clean so i can see where this very small oil leak is coming from =/

and do u have any installed shots of ur switch?...where abouts did u mount it.....and can it be left on ALL the time with no problems?....or its recomended to just turn it on more often manually while driving

I run a lower temperature. 180. My Derale fan control unit turns on my fans somewhere just around 183-185.

If you are running a higher temperature, as in stock, the lower temp switch is a really good idea.

Arn

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: I guess my use of the word "obsolete" has ruffled some feathers. The word means "out of date". The crude ECM, bank-fire fuel injection, distributer ignition, and cylinder head design are in fact out of date, i.e. obsolete.

Yeah I'm a fan of the Fiero L44, but there are things about it that are clearly out of date...that crappy ignition module, and the dstributor, just to name a couple of things.

But I don't think it fits the definition of Obsolete just yet.

DEFINITION

When a new, more functional product or technology supersedes the old (example: telegraph to telephone, 5 1/4 inch floppy disk to 3 1/2 inch floppy disk, Fixed Gear Bicycle to a Freewheeled Bicycle ).
When the product becomes useless due to changes in other products. For example, buggy whips became obsolete when people started to travel in cars rather than in horse-drawn buggies.
When spare parts become so expensive that it becomes more attractive to purchase a new item.
When poor quality materials shorten the product's lifetime.
When component parts are no longer available to enable the manufacture of an item. Management of this type of obsolescence is required if long-term product availability is important.


When the day comes that you can swap in a more modern engine cheaper than the 2.8 can be fixed, or spare parts are no longer available then it will be obsolete. I don't think we are quite there yet.

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: 200 hp is achievable but not with the Fiero intake and exhaust. Also, to make 200 hp reliably you'll be spending alot of money. You'll need blueprinting and balancing, high compression pistons, heavier conrods, heavier pushrods, reworked valves, heavy valve springs, lumpy cam, and lots of porting. A Trueleo intake and exhaust, or the Holley/Edelbrock setup. I think the practical limit for the engine is around 170-180 N/A with a good build. That said, with a good build, and a turbo, the engine can probably run well over 200 hp, but for how long? Not sure about that one. Arn

I tend to disagree, there are lots of folks out there that have been running more than 7lbs of boost that have not lost an engine. I run 7-10 lbs with 9-1 pistons and have been doing so for years and that's with the added flow of one of our intake and headers. There is also somewhat of fix for the oiling thing (I didnt do it , didnt known about it at the time) you drill the crank oil holes larger like the 3.4s.

Another issue: it's simply not just runner lenght that makes the stock intake the pretty looking P.O.S. it is; moreover it has to dop with other factors; like the insane turn to air has to make to get from the upper to middle intake, the narrrow inlet, lack of real velocity stacks for the runners, etc, etc. If you make your runners too long, yeah you may not get the shock wave (or whatever you want ot call it) where you want it RPM-wise, but it won't limit your RPM to 4.5 like the stock restrictions can. State-of-the-art, heck no; but the 60 deg V6 is a good little engine hog tied by poor intake and headers. The 60deg V6 is not a DOHC 3.4 V6, but then the push rod SBC, is no DOHC hemi and it still gets the job done in a small space.

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[IMG]



Trueleo.com/fiero.htm
RSpiderII@aol.com

quote Originally posted by Francis T: the stock intake the pretty looking P.O.S. it is;

It is a pretty looking P.O.S. though. That was the one thing that I always liked when the Fiero first came out. I would hate to give mine up just to gain a few ponies.

2.8 with auto went for 285k before a bad waterpump was misdiagnosed as a head gasket, so who knows how long it would've gone. My opinion of the 2.8 is that it will go forever with proper care.

quote Originally posted by CTFieroGT87: 2.8 with auto went for 285k before a bad waterpump was misdiagnosed as a head gasket, so who knows how long it would've gone. My opinion of the 2.8 is that it will go forever with proper care.

Can you still buy 2.8 v6's? Or when mine blows up, do I just rebuild. See, I want to leave it stock, because one thing that impressed me the most was when I opened up the engine compartment...it said "Hi, I'm a Fiero" right there on the intake manifold. Call me weird, but I appreciate things like that. Plus, I like to restore cars not hotrod them. Don't get me wrong though, I don't mean I don't want a supercharger or anything like that. But I really appreciate restored car's more than rodded ones. I'm all about subtle improvements more than major mods. So, I'd like to have an improved restored Fiero more than a lean-mean street eating machine. I have one of those already...it eats a lot of gas.

quote Originally posted by Francis T: I tend to disagree, there are lots of folks out there that have been running more than 7lbs of boost that have not lost an engine. I run 7-10 lbs with 9-1 pistons and have been doing so for years and that's with the added flow of one of our intake and headers. There is also somewhat of fix for the oiling thing (I didnt do it , didnt known about it at the time) you drill the crank oil holes larger like the 3.4s. Another issue: it's simply not just runner lenght that makes the stock intake the pretty looking P.O.S. it is; moreover it has to dop with other factors; like the insane turn to air has to make to get from the upper to middle intake, the narrrow inlet, lack of real velocity stacks for the runners, etc, etc. If you make your runners too long, yeah you may not get the shock wave (or whatever you want ot call it) where you want it RPM-wise, but it won't limit your RPM to 4.5 like the stock restrictions can. State-of-the-art, heck no; but the 60 deg V6 is a good little engine hog tied by poor intake and headers. The 60deg V6 is not a DOHC 3.4 V6, but then the push rod SBC, is no DOHC hemi and it still gets the job done in a small space.

I rather agree with you. Take my Edelbrock intake. The air comes in pretty much in a straight line then jogs a bit to enter the runner and from there on it is a very shallow curve to the valve bowl. That is the advantage, IMHO with the Trueleo too, nice simple lines for air flow.

Where I think we're talking apples and oranges is that alot of guys think they can throw a turbo on a used engine and boost it up to the point where the old parts just can't handle it whereas I think you have a nicely prepped engine for the boost you're running.

Arn

My definition of a good engine would be one that does what it was designed to do, and does it for a long time without major work necessary. For example, someone wrote on our club's forum (GA Fiero Club) that they got 450,000 miles out of an 84 duke before they had to replace the engine. Now that was a good engine. Some engines have little quirks that you can live with and not really worry about so they are still good engines. For example, most 2.8 V6's with over 50,000 miles will blow out a puff of smoke on startup due to leaking valve guides. But they still run well, and don't burn any oil other than that first puff. And the engine will keep running and blowing those little puffs on startup for thousands more miles.
Because of quality control problems, there are always lemons among good engines, particularly with dukes. But when they are good, they are very very good.

quote Originally posted by rwalley: Can you still buy 2.8 v6's?

Yes, you can purchase a pushrod 2.8L V6 engine, but not from GM.

Your comments I've quoted below strongly suggest you would enjoy a pushrod 3.4L V6 engine swap:

quote Originally posted by rwalley: I want to leave it stock, because one thing that impressed me the most was when I opened up the engine compartment...it said "Hi, I'm a Fiero" right there on the intake manifold....I'm all about subtle improvements more than major mods.

A pushrod 3.4L V6 engine has approximately 20% more displacement than a pushrod 2.8L V6 engine. However, when installed in your Fiero, a pushrod 3.4L engine looks VERY much like a pushrod 2.8L engine.

The increase in the engine's displacement gained with a 3.4L is attributable solely to INTERNAL differences: a larger bore and a longer stroke than in the 2.8L. The external dimensions of the engines aren't 20% different; they're essentially the same. Most people wouldn't easily know just by looking at it that you had a pushrod 3.4L engine in your Fiero instead of the 2.8L, which, given your stated preference for "subtle improvements," is about as "subtle" as it gets in terms of appearance. And yes, with the 3.4L, if stock appearance is what you favor, you could even reuse the 2.8L Fiero intake manifold that proclaims "Fiero" right on it.

quote Originally posted by pswayne: For some reason, pushrod engines seem to be heavy on torque compared to overhead cam high revving engines.

It's possible to design a basic overhead cam (OHC) engine to produce as much low-end torque as a pushrod (PR) engine, but then it won't produce as much high end power. The question is why anyone would want to do this, and the answer is that nobody does ... except possibly for some stationary engines. (Related trivia: Does anybody else remember that the 4-cylinder OHC Coventry Climax race engines from the late '50s and early '60s were originally designed to power water pumps?)

An OHC engine with variable valve timing, however, can give you the best of both worlds ... good low end torque and reliable high RPM power peak. Look at the torque curves of the new VVT Northstar motors for an outstanding example ... they are virtually flat from about 1200 RPM to near redline.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 08-27-2007).]

quote Originally posted by project34: And yes, with the 3.4L, if stock appearance is what you favor, you could even reuse the 2.8L Fiero intake manifold that proclaims "Fiero" right on it.

Really? Interesting.

Ok, but what other mods do I need to do if I dropped a 3.4 in? Can I just hook up the engine? I doubt it.

I just don't think Its the best engine for the car, i think other engines are more at home in the engine bay *cough*(3800)cough*

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