OK. I'm a little late to the party regarding the reduced ZDDP levels in modern motor oils, but I'm now aware of the problem. So I want to change away from the 10-30 Havoline I've been using in favor of something with more ZDDP. I addition, my engine has >150K on it and I need to consider that, too. It recently started using more oil, (about 1qt/1000 mi) so I'm thinking of going with something heavier. I also want something not too expensive so that I'm not going to be tempted to extend my change intervals. I recently researched oils for use in my 70's vintage air cooled motorcycle. I was looking for something relatively cheap, and with high ZDDP levels.

Here are my three finalists:
- Valvoline VR1 Racing oil, which appears to be available only in single wt viscosities (30,50, etc), or in 20-50.
- Castrol GTX 20-50 (the lower weights have reduced ZDDP)
- Valvoline 4-Cycle Motorcycle oil.

For my motorcycle, I'm going with the Valvoline 4-Cycle Motorcycle oil, mostly because it's better for use in an gearbox, and it's better for wet clutches. But for the Fiero, I'm not sure yet. It seems like the other high ZDDP oils are only available in 20-50, or in a single vis. So I'm tempted to use it in my Fiero, too since it's available in 10-40. It's all about $3/qt, so price isn't a concern. So, whaddaya think? 10-40 motorcycle oil, 20-50 GTX or racing oil, or something else?

For my money it would be Castrol GTX 20w50. I still run this in my aircooled bikes( KZ 650, KZ900, KZ1000) And its cheaper than motorcycle spec oil.

quote Originally posted by ron768: For my money it would be Castrol GTX 20w50. I still run this in my aircooled bikes( KZ 650, KZ900, KZ1000) And its cheaper than motorcycle spec oil.

Ive had great luck with Castrol. I use their full synthetics in my other cars, but used the reg 20-50 in my 'new' 66 Coronet. I cant see the point in putting synthetic in an engine thats been running for about 40 years on the old stuff. I figger Id just be asking for leaks and I have none now.

halvoline is half the reason your engine burns/ leaks oil other half is age, i bet if you pop your oil cap off its all gunky and sludgy inside? i bet you can even chip pieces off of the oil cap that have burned on, in your case i wouldent worry about it...be glad you got 150k miles from halvoline, i fear if you switch to any other oil the new oil will begin to clean up the old halvoline/pensoil crust and plug up your oil pump resulting in you being another member of a swap thred., not to discourage you but halvoline only means one thing..if i were you id just stay with it and use oil additives such as smoke be gone or reslone ring seal..the engine is already destroyed might as well feed it pain pills and put band aids on it...cant fix halvoline.

quote Originally posted by ron768: For my money it would be Castrol GTX 20w50. I still run this in my aircooled bikes( KZ 650, KZ900, KZ1000) And its cheaper than motorcycle spec oil.

Cool collection of bikes. Mine is a KZ650. Oh, and believe it or not, the Valvoline motorcycle oil is about the same price as GTX at the local AutoZone.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: I cant see the point in putting synthetic in an engine thats been running for about 40 years on the old stuff.

Agreed. I won't be going to any synthetic.

quote Originally posted by 88 Silver Formula: halvoline is half the reason your engine burns/ leaks oil... cant fix halvoline

Why do you say this? Do you have any references for problems with Havoline? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd like to see more info concerning this.

Thanks.

quote Originally posted by Formula Owner: Why do you say this? Do you have any references for problems with Havoline? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd like to see more info concerning this. Thanks.

I don't know about Havoline specifically but some oils similar to Penzoil contain paraffin. Essentially wax. That can build up over time and gunk up the engine. The problem is, if you try to loosen it up and get rid of it, it'll all go down to the oil pan and plug up the oil pickup. You then lose oil pressure and lunch a bearing.

Best bet is to stay with what you've got. If it's gotten you this far, switching isn't necessarily going to help, and it could hurt.

If it's burning that much oil, I'd use the Castrol 20 w 50 & add a pint of STP oil treatment.
As a side note I have a friend with a Banshee 4 wheeler with a KZ 1000 engine... I rode it the other day; it is WICKED fast!!!
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

"The police said he commited suicide: he shot himself in the head - twice!"

[This message has been edited by Tha Driver (edited 09-28-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Formula88: I don't know about Havoline specifically but some oils similar to Penzoil contain paraffin. Essentially wax. That can build up over time and gunk up the engine. The problem is, if you try to loosen it up and get rid of it, it'll all go down to the oil pan and plug up the oil pickup. You then lose oil pressure and lunch a bearing. Best bet is to stay with what you've got. If it's gotten you this far, switching isn't necessarily going to help, and it could hurt.

I've heard that about Pennzoil, and actually all Pennsylvania oils. I've also heard that flushing can toast a sludged engine. But I've never heard that just using a conventional motor oil, and not an engine flush, could cause this.

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: If it's burning that much oil, I'd use the Castrol 20 w 50 & add a pint of STP oil treatment. As a side note I have a friend with a Banshee 4 wheeler with a KZ 1000 engine... I rode it the other day; it is WICKED fast!!!

Why would you recommend such a heavy oil AND an oil treatment? I would think I wouldn't need one if I had the other. What would the STP do for me?

That KZ1000 engined Banshee sounds like a blast. Hey, wait a minute. You're local to me. Is your friend local? Is he offering rides?

Thanks

quote Originally posted by Formula Owner: I've heard that about Pennzoil, and actually all Pennsylvania oils. I've also heard that flushing can toast a sludged engine. But I've never heard that just using a conventional motor oil, and not an engine flush, could cause this.

Well, you can always try it and see. That choice is up to you.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Well, you can always try it and see. That choice is up to you.

First of all I use the good stuff, Quaker State Horsepower, for my synthetic oil. I use Castol GTX in my truck for my conventional oil. I never had a problem with either one of the oils and there is no engine sludge and they don't burn hardly any oil. I wouldn't use STP Engine Treatment either, that stuff breeds engine sludge and carbon build up in the valleys. I use Lucas Engine Treatment, every engine that I used that in never had any engine sludge or carbon build up.

in the sixties and seventies I was a scooter mechanic ,many shops would no longer sell castrol because they started to use parafin.and also started selling oil at discount stores.. i do not remember any bad reports of credence on any oil.. i do not keep up with this today but the texacos the shells the gulf oils ect the large gas and oil suppliers made the best oil according to testing,no one beleave this they beleave what they beleave ,, in todays market synthetic is the only good oil good synthetic cost $6 to $10 a quart, for an old engine run what you like any 20/50.. if you use oil ,add stp or the many clones, they are merely oil thickners. they work . I personaly do not like stp or any thickner, but they do the job,,if you use a quart every 1000 miles.. I would use the auto parts store brand,, do not use synthetic that day has gone for this engine,, the difference in oils comes at hi rpms you will not be attaining,, I no longer keep up with the reports but doubt any real difference,parafin oil not so good but far away good enough for street engine, my report is based on my 20 years as mechanic.service manager, owner,mobile mechanic and scooter trash scooter mechanic,,reading popular science,listening to mechanic on talk radio,ect the oil war will never end,, hated to see the chevy / ford wars end and become swamped by imports,, use what you want .. i use the cheap synthetic which are sort of synthetic!! mobile one is the cheapest real synthetic, if you have expensive swap expensive modifications or want long engine life use synthetic..it flows to heat this is why it was developed for jet engines, oldsmobile is gone , pontiac is next ! I am cheap and a real care free guy,don,t care as long as its free

[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 09-28-2007).]

Another oil you might consider is Castrol GTX Diesel 15W40. It has an API service rating of SJ. Most of todays motor oils have a rating of SM which indicates that most of the ZDDP has been removed. When I was trying to decide which to switch to this was the only dino oil I could find whose data sheet stated zinc and phosphorus levels. Here is a link to the datasheet.
http://www.castrol.com/live...q/pds_GTX_Diesel.pdf
My Formula has 130000 miles on it and has always used Castrol GTX 10W30.

quote Originally posted by Formula Owner: Why would you recommend such a heavy oil AND an oil treatment? I would think I wouldn't need one if I had the other. What would the STP do for me? That KZ1000 engined Banshee sounds like a blast. Hey, wait a minute. You're local to me. Is your friend local? Is he offering rides? Thanks

Have you ever tried holding the blade of a screwdriver (straight up) with STP on it? You can't do it. The STP will give you better lubricant in those worn bearings & rings. If it's using that much oil it won't hurt to use 20 w 50 & the STP (especially in the south).
No free rides, but maybe someday I could arrange for you to see it.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

China scorecard:
1) Bolts not up to grade. The *aircraft* industry had several failures because they were marked a higher grade than they were. They no longer use imported bolts.
2) Poison pet food.
3) Poison pet food - again.
4) Tires that blow out.
5) Poison toothpaste. Contains the same toxic that's found in anti-freeze.
6) More poison toothpaste. Combined with toothbrushes so that it could be imported as "toothbrushes", to get rid of the poison toothpaste!
7) Toys made of lead. Imported by Mattel.
8) Toys with lead paint & small magnets that can kill children if swallowed. Imported by Fisher Price.
9) Poison pet food - the third time.
10) Poison children's paint sets - sold at Toys R Us.
11) Bugs in candy bars.
12) More (nearly a million recalled) Mattel toys with lead paint.
13) Flip-Flops at wallmart that cause a rash.
14) 1 million baby cribs recalled after 3 children die.
15) About 1.5 million Thomas the tank engine toys painted with lead paint.
Made in China: NOT gonna' buy ya'.

Rotella-? oil is supposed to be loaded with that zzz stuff. Cheap too at Walmart and Tractor Supply.
I think its a Shell product.

quote Originally posted by Spoon: Rotella-? oil is supposed to be loaded with that zzz stuff. Cheap too at Walmart and Tractor Supply. I think its a Shell product.

I was going to recommend this. It's Shell Rotella T. 15W40.

I buy it in boxes of 4 one gallon bottles at Sams club.

Since it is formulated for heavy trucks, it still has the zinc that was removed from most passenger car oils.

When I was getting ready to install my H-272 cam, I started hearing and reading a lot of horror stories about those cams "wiping" lobes shortly after break-in. I tried to take every precaution to make sure that it didn't happen to me. Using the Rotella T was one of those precautions.
I haven't had a bit of trouble with mine in ~5000 miles, using that oil.

Whether it will be useful in an engine that is starting to have issues is a different question altogether.
But it does have the additives you're looking for.

Most of the turbo Buick guys run rotella T oil. I think it is designed for diesel engines, so its lubrication properties are much better than ones designed for gas engines.

I personally run castrol 10w30 in every car ive owned. I tore down the engine in my Monte Carlo several times (not due to any lube failures, lol) and every time it was clean as a whistle. I recommend it to everyone.

quote Originally posted by MonteC: Most of the turbo Buick guys run rotella T oil. I think it is designed for diesel engines, so its lubrication properties are much better than ones designed for gas engines. I personally run castrol 10w30 in every car ive owned. I tore down the engine in my Monte Carlo several times (not due to any lube failures, lol) and every time it was clean as a whistle. I recommend it to everyone.

Rotella T Is designed for just diesel engines.

quote Originally posted by craigsfiero2007: Rotella T Is designed for just diesel engines.

Thats what i thought, its sulfur content is much higher.

Now I have a question about oil too. My 2.8 V6 was just rebuilt and has 11000 miles on it. I am running 5w30 Mobil 1 synthetic. Now is that a good choice?

Never put synthetic in to break in an engine. Bearing and rings will never seat in. Drain it and put dino oil in for at least 5-6 thou miles. I prefer 10,000 myself. If you already got 11,000 on it with synthetic, you got what you got. If it uses oil your stuck with it. One fix that dealers did way back with carbs when rings didnt seat, was pour some Bon Ami scouring powder in as it was running, then doing a fresh filter and oil change.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 10-01-2007).]

Something to keep in mind regarding Rotella T, which is favored by a lot of motorcycle owners, mainly because of it's ZDDP content. While it has higher levels of ZDDP than most others, it has undergone a formulation change recently that reduced these levels. And since Diesel engines will soon have emissions requirements, many of the diesel oils will likely reformulate to comply. But it probably won't be immediate, since there will still be lot of pre-emission diesels in service for a long time. Bottom line: just because you have a good oil now doesn't mean you will later. The companies are constantly reformulating their oils and keeping the same name. I don't have a problem with them changing formulations, but I wish they'd at least change the name too.

A few things, hopefully someone can help me out on all of them:

-I'm still trying to figure out how we can tell what still has good zddp. Is it a fact that if it does not say SM standards it is still good? Since all of them are slowly getting reformulated mentioning brands seems to mean nothing.

-Diesel rated, someone mentioned too much sulfur content, what does that do, hurt? Are all diesel rateds not good for a gas engine?

-20w50 I would think is too thick for any engine rated at 5w30 when new. Maybe 10w40 but isn't 20w50 a bit too thick, startup would be pretty dry wouldn't it?

-Castrol, everyone bragged it up, and I thought it was good too, but then someone mentioned it has had paraffin in it for years, (?). It must not huh?

regarding ZDDP levels is mobil 1 extended performance 5w-30 a good selection?

No I just put the Mobil 1 synthetic in at the 11000 mile mark. I had non synthetic in for the the breaking in.

quote Originally posted by Formula Owner: Something to keep in mind regarding Rotella T, which is favored by a lot of motorcycle owners, mainly because of it's ZDDP content. While it has higher levels of ZDDP than most others, it has undergone a formulation change recently that reduced these levels. And since Diesel engines will soon have emissions requirements, many of the diesel oils will likely reformulate to comply.

I have followed the oil formulation change very closely since losing a new cam and lifters in one of my builds. There is no oil left out there, except racing oil, that has the required amount of ZDDP for a flat tappet cam.

[This message has been edited by CJguy (edited 10-02-2007).]

So if it has the word "Racing" on the bottle it has the proper amount, and just picking a good weight is all ?

Ive never been into any of my engines with Castrol and found any trace of parafin. The engines with over 100K look like there brand new inside. Pennzoil and Quaker State (full of it) are all blackened, gooed up, oil passages clogged, pump screens clogged. I once opened up a friends dads engine in a truck he bought new, changed every 3000 miles with QS. The oil on a change took forever to get into the oil pan and it had some lifter ticking. Pulled the valve covers off and it looked like they were full of burnt mashed potatoes. Pulled the oil pan and found the same thing everywhere including the oil pump screen. Thats my experience, others may or may not have found the same thing. Not the first one ive personally seen though.

There are a lot of articles out there on this out there. Here are a few to keep you busy for a while:
http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html
http://vfrworld.com/tex_vfr/tech/oil.htm
http://www.xs11.com/stories/mcnoil94.htm
http://www.ibmwr.org/otech/oilreport.html

And this one is about oil additives:
http://www.thegsresources.c...rage/gs_additive.htm

quote Originally posted by CJguy: There is no oil left out there, except racing oil, that has the required amount of ZDDP for a flat tappet cam.

My research has shown that this is close, but not exactly true. All of the SM rated oils have almost zero ZDDP. But all gas engine oils do not have to be SM rated, just the 10w30 and lighter oils. 10w40 and heavier do not have to be SM rated. But... many companies have lowered the ZDDP in their other oils, too. Castrol, for example, has lowered the ZDDP in 10w40, but not in their 20w50. Racing oils, for the most part, do still have high ZDDP levels, but they also usually have fewer detergents. This isn't a problem for race engines which get torn down often. For a street engine, this may be a problem. Diesel oils, like Rotella, have more ZDDP than most gas engine oils, but like I said earlier, they're reducing the levels in diesel oils, too.

Regarding parafin, I've heard that the Pennsylvania oils (Pennsoil, Quaker State, etc) all have parafin.

Another interesting point. I emailed Valvoline and asked which oil they recommended for my motorcycle, their 4 Cycle Motorcycle oil, or their VR1 Racing oil. Here is their response:

quote From Valvoline: The oil industry per ILSAC had to only decrease the levels of ZDDP (Zinc) in certain viscosity to meet new emission standards. The ILSAC rated oils still have an average of .085 levels of zinc. Testing has shown on standard OEM set ups that used mild camshafts will still get plenty of protection from the new rated oils. There is an exception when it comes to extreme aftermarket applications. If you have a high performance solid lifter set up with an aggressive cam then you will need to use a quality Racing Oil or Fleet Oil for break in and normal usage. These oils have an increased level of Zinc that will range from .14 to .16 and will provide plenty of protection. The consensus in the industry is that the current chemical limits of the GF-4/SM category are still sufficient to protect all "street" engines, including older flat tappet foller engines. The engine tests required for a GF-4/SM product is just as severe as the older, higher ZDDP allowed category. For the special applications (aggressive cams, high HP racing motors, etc) where the customer needs more ZDDP protection, our NON-GF-4 products still contain the higher levels (such as VR-1 and "not street legal" racing). Our best and only oils rated for wet clutches are our 4-Stroke Motorcycle and ATV Oils.

So it would appear that the reduced ZDDP is only a problem in "special applications" where the forces between the cam and lifters are higher than normal. Although not mentioned, I think this would include break-in on new engines. BTW, GM recommends and additive, I think it's called EOS, (whhich contains high levels of ZDDP) for break-in on new motors.

Also in one of the articles above, I learned that synthetics are not bad for break-in. They're just not necessary. Synthetics are not more slippier than dino oils. New dino oil is just as good as new synthetic. The advantage of synthetics is that they last much longer. They maintain their viscosity much longer. And if you're going to change the oil 500 miles after a rebuild, it makes no sense to waste money on the synthetic.

[This message has been edited by Formula Owner (edited 10-02-2007).]

All you guys searching for ZDDP loaded oils, do you know one of the primary reasons it was removed? Catalyst poisoning. It plugs up your converter.

If you're not running race springs you shouldn't have too much issue running a standard conventional/synthetic. Just use proper break-in lubes in new engines and generally you'll be good to go. Some folks will talk about a cam that lived 5 minutes after a build and they'll blame it on lack of ZDDP. It just quite possible they got a bad cam out of the box.

Ya its just hard knowing there is something that lubes better for the same price and I'm not using it because I'm not sure which ones they are. Good info to see.

No harm in that at all. I'm just point out that ZDDP was ruining catalytic converters. I'm not saying it will happen to you, but is possible you will end up replacing a converter in your car due to continued use of ZDDP loaded oils. I've replaced a few converters in my cars (all of which were plugged, including my Fiero) and I can't but wonder if that was the culprit due to use before ZDDP levels were reduced. When the converter in your BMW runs $1600 for the converter alone, before labor, you tend to pay closer attention to why it plugged.

Pics of converter inlet and outlet from my BMW converter. Can you guess which end plugged up?

[This message has been edited by Rainman (edited 10-02-2007).]

Someone could always run 2 quarts of higher zddp oil, and 2 quarts of "newer blend" oil.

or just stick with your "favorite" brand of oil and put in a can of GM EOS or, my preference, use a can of Comp Cams Additive #159 which contains "all the chemicals that the oil companies were required to remove from automotive oil for emission reasons". Comp cams highly recomends using this for new cam breakin as well as long term use in non emission applications.

YMMV,
Russ544

Thanks.

Ouch! an extra $10 per oil change for the comp cams stuff, I suppose you get what you pay for.

I use CompCams #159 in all of my engine builds during break-in.

Oh BTW. the Shell Rottella T oil has been "re-formulated" to meet new emission standards for diesel engines. the z package is pretty much gone now. if you look at the oil container, the "old" formulation was CI-4 that had the good stuf in it, the new formulation without it will have a CJ-4 spec listed. there may still be some of the old stuff on the shelf, but not for long.

Russ544

PPS:
there are a couple schools of thought on the weight of oil to use in high mileage engines. some "experts" believe that oil consumption can be reduced by using a lighter weight oil. they say it's easier for the (worn) rings to control the lighter oil. perhaps the idea has merit. I guess what weight you use would also depend on how loose the bottom end is (previous maintanance or lack of). if the bottom end is still fairly tight you might want to concider that.

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 10-03-2007).]