It is not worth the money. It really does not increase the flow as much as advertised. Runner length and size remain stock and that is where half of the restriction is. With that installed you will see a very slight gain but that is it.
sorry but i have to step up here,,west coast intake is a joke no end about it
as for the trueleo,,,for every one to reach his or her own,,yeah ok,,there is a few things i dont know and like to learn and there r others i DO KNOW,,,i have a few designs and models i have did,,,,research there r better ones out there,that can do better
I've not had a chance to put hands on their product, however, it appears to help quite a bit. For certain, you won't get a whole lot of improvement without porting and polishing your heads to go with it. The main improvement with stock heads is likely more top end. It looks like it can breath better. However, for the added costs they are talking about (read the fine print) this is a pretty expensive power adder.
If you check out Edelbrock, you can set up a carb application cheaper, and the carb application itself is not all that cheap, however, the Edelbrock intake flows to compliment a 390 cfm carb and that is way more than what either the stock or modified throttlebodies can do. In short, it is more volume than the engine can handle.
Before going to the intake, I'd sure look at doing up the heads, and the exhaust. It all kind of ties together. It's like matching up hoses. Try running water through a 1/2" garden hose and see how much water comes through into a bucket in say, 30 seconds. Now try it with a 1/4" opening. You'll see just how big a difference the size of things makes. You need better flow at all 3 points, the intake, the heads, the exhaust, to make it go better.
Hope this helps.
Arn
BTW, the Trueleo setup for the money is a pretty good one, but not chrome
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08:27 AM
vortecfiero Member
Posts: 996 From: Toronto Area, Canada Registered: Feb 2002
id build the engine up first... or determine the airflow you require and then find the manifold that flows that amount the money for a new manifold could be put towards head work which when done properly (for the cam etc) will get a bigger bang for the buck
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87 Fiero GT 5sp with Vortec L35 4300 Turbocharged V6 Bully Stage 2 clutch Syclone intake manifold and engine management with Moates adapter and chip burner Air/water intercooler and Devil's Own progressive water/alky injection 50lb injectors, 3 bar map sensor, Walboro fuel pump and Jabasco Intercooler pump LM1 wideband on custom manifolds and 3" stainless exhaust system T31/T04B S4 turbo with a Super T61 in the box S10 caliper conversion. Murphy's Constant Matter will be damaged in direct proportion to its value Murphy's Law of Thermodynamics Things get worse under pressure. Arthur C. Clarke "Any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
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09:56 AM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15722 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
All mods to make a 2.8L engine are bound to help some but consider the horsepower gain vs. the cost of the mods. Adding a high performance intake may yield you 15 Hp (and thats a generous estimate) . That's almost $50 for every HP gained. You'll also have to open up the throttle body which will run you another $150. Now your cost goes up to over $56 per horsepower. Now to optimize on the new flow you'll want to add headers-right? Thats another $600-$700 right there for maybe 5-7 more horsepower. Combine these mods and you be spending $100 per HP gained. This is a large cost for what you might gain. Certainly make your own decison on how much you want to spend and what you expect for the money. Then compare it to the cost of putting in a good used engine upgrade Just some food for thought.
------------------ 87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds 2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress Engine Controls, PCM goodies, re-programming & odd electronics stuff " I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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10:22 AM
Francis T Member
Posts: 6620 From: spotsylvania va. usa Registered: Oct 2003
Only a 15 HP gain, da, can you read a dyno sheet! With the stock intake the engine dies at around 4.5K, all that green area on the dyno sheet (see hi flow update) is useable power you didnt have before. And you can do a lot of things to the 2.8 PR engines and yet if you don't change the intake you're not going to get much back for your money at all. It will hit the 4.5K wall and die. $ for $ (and ease of install) our intakes are very cost effective. Short of forced induction or NOS, nothing else will change the power available as much. BTW: One does not simply look at peek HP when reading dyno data. If you do something and gain say 75 more HP but it only comes in at between 5,500-6,000 rpm it's not very useful. Sorry people, just gets me going when folks make basically uninformed statements. And thanks Orief. And he can read a dyno and then some!
I have no kitten in this fight but there are glowing reports from forum members about the trueleo exhaust and manifold, the man spend much time,effort and money ,, as the forum members watched,,all my clothes are tailored with one way pockets,difficult for me to suffer heart attack over price of any modification .. the trueleo system is just like the wages of sin are high, but you get your moneys worth to me .. the V 6 needs to have the stock manifold ported and the exhaust ported this beats many exotic systems on the dyno..only the trueleo products give the 2.8 fiero the horse power gain.. I am going to port mine but if a bail falls from the sky and does not kill me(desire of many here) I would squeeeeeze out the money for this product" research the dyno info" make francis T a prince of fiero power GO to this site to start www.fierofocus.com/articles...t%20presentation.htm an eye opener can,t remember short google
[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 10-01-2007).]
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12:42 PM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
Adding a high performance intake may yield you 15 Hp (and thats a generous estimate) . That's almost $50 for every HP gained.
That is only if you go by peak power. If you go by average power, there is a 24 hp average and a specific gain of 44 hp at 5500 rpm! So you gain 24 hp average horsepower and the powerband is 700 rpm wider.
In regard to the WCF intake manifold that Black86gtFastback asked about at the outset of this thread, you'll see the total intake manifold package that you'll need takes you well over $1,000. And while the throttle body in particular is commendably bigger than the stock one, the WCF intake manifold's runners appear to have essentially the same restrictive 90-degree turn into the cylinder heads as does the stock Fiero intake manifold.
Also, if you think you're getting a super-shiny intake manifold with the WCF piece, even that seems questionable. Yes, the first two pictures of the WCF manifold shown on their website show a very shiny intake manifold. However, I suggest clicking on the phrase, "larger view," that appears between those two pictures. What then comes up is much different in appearance than the shiny intake manifold you first see on their website, isn't it?
In summary, with regard to the WCF manifold, caveat emptor.
I'd go with the Trueleo intake manifold instead, Black86gtFastback. At least you know you're getting a dyno-proven performance increase and an extended RPM range with the Trueleo. In contrast, I didn't see any dyno results for the WCF intake on the WCF website.
Another thing that hasn't been touched on is that by porting your exhaust you get 5-8 hp, but, that figure is using the stock Fiero intake. Try adding the high flow intake, without porting the exhaust and you get an equally modest gain. But, add the two together and you get more than the sum of the two separately. That is the reason you should always add headers to a big intake.
A good rule of thumb for pushrod engines is a reliable and usable hp max is about 1 hp per cubic inch. If you boost you get more but less reliability or longevity. Take our rated 140 hp for 173 ci. We are not near the potential for the motor speaking strictly in natural aspiration. The reason we don't generally get there is that nobody does all there is required to achieve it. This includes porting, valve grind, high flow intake and headers. If you take the Trueleo complete setup and just plug and play you'll get increased hp, but, (and Francis T will say the same thing) add those items to a ported and polished set of heads, new rings, and an underdrive pulley and you've just compounded the benefits of the intake and exhaust improvements.
All of this costs. Power costs, and speed costs. There just is no shortcut.
I think it is a sort of "name your poison" kind of situation. I chose a carb, and the costs associated, and whether it is WCF or Trueleo or whoever's equipment it is always the same. You chose how you want to spend the $$ required, and none of it is cheap.
------------------ Raydar 88 4.9 Formula IMSA Fasback..........................88 3.4 coupe -soon to be something other than red Read Nealz Nuze!Praise the Lowered!
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06:05 PM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15722 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
Originally posted by Oreif: That is only if you go by peak power. If you go by average power, there is a 24 hp average and a specific gain of 44 hp at 5500 rpm! So you gain 24 hp average horsepower and the powerband is 700 rpm wider.
So you are saying that adding just a new intake maniold will yield 44 more horsepower to a stock 2.8L ??? Think about it- from 140HP to 188 HP with just one change. Then how do you explain that the addition of a turbo w 7-8 psi of boost only yields about 190-195 HP- 6 -7 more more than the intake???? The info just doesn't jive. I 've worked with engines for a long time and I don't care what dyno sheet you are looking at, the guy that published it is selling snake oil. . I'd put my money on a before and after dyno test just to see that difference. Here's the challenge. We take a Fiero to a dyno shop of my choosing and do a dyno run on a stock 2.8L. Then we change the manifold only . Then we dyno again and we video the entire test. $500 says you WON'T get 44 Horsepowwer more. Anyone willing to take the bet?
------------------ 87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds 2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress Engine Controls, PCM goodies, re-programming & odd electronics stuff " I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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11:04 PM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15722 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
So you are saying that adding just a new intake maniold will yield 44 more horsepower to a stock 2.8L ??? Think about it- from 140HP to 188 HP with just one change. Then how do you explain that the addition of a turbo w 7-8 psi of boost only yields about 190-195 HP- 6 -7 more more than the intake???? The info just doesn't jive. I 've worked with engines for a long time and I don't care what dyno sheet you are looking at, the guy that published it is selling snake oil. . I'd put my money on a before and after dyno test just to see that difference. Here's the challenge. We take a Fiero to a dyno shop of my choosing and do a dyno run on a stock 2.8L. Then we change the manifold only . Then we dyno again and we video the entire test. $500 says you WON'T get 44 Horsepowwer more. Anyone willing to take the bet?
Sorry to confuse you, The actual dyno data used in my post was the one that is on the Trueleo website. It is not a 2.8L, It is a 3.4L and it does not specifiy what exhaust manifolds or any ither mods that were on the engine. Just that the dyno was before with a Fiero intake and after with the Trueleo short runner intake. But the point I was making was the Trueleo intake has more than just a peak power advantage to it. I am willing to bet that if you took a stock 2.8L and swapped on just the intake, You would find there would be a substantial gain in the 5000 to 6000 rpm range and that the average horsepower would increase as well.
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07:33 AM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15722 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
Sorry to confuse you, The actual dyno data used in my post was the one that is on the Trueleo website. It is not a 2.8L, It is a 3.4L and it does not specifiy what exhaust manifolds or any ither mods that were on the engine. Just that the dyno was before with a Fiero intake and after with the Trueleo short runner intake. But the point I was making was the Trueleo intake has more than just a peak power advantage to it. I am willing to bet that if you took a stock 2.8L and swapped on just the intake, You would find there would be a substantial gain in the 5000 to 6000 rpm range and that the average horsepower would increase as well.
Orief: . Thanks for clearing up the confusion. You usually have some pretty thoughtful posts. I do not doubt that the Trueleo Intake is a quality piece. I can see it making a big difference on a 3.4L as the stock Fiero plenum actually chokes the airflow and limits the power potential of the 3.4L. As such, the end result on the 3.4L ( especially in the 4500-5500 RPM range) might be dramatic but on the 2.8L the % increase in power would probably be much less. Improved breathing always helps an engine and along with ported exhaust manifolds and a less restrictive exhaust you'd probably feel a big difference in power. However, for the kid who just buys the Truleo bolts it on and expects bonzai performance he may be disappointed. However, I wish that I had a chance to try the Trueleo on my turbo 3.4L but now that I'm in the 3800SC camp , I'm just wondering if it's been tried before.
------------------ 87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds 2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress Engine Controls, PCM goodies, re-programming & odd electronics stuff " I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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10:01 AM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
However, for the kid who just buys the Truleo bolts it on and expects bonzai performance he may be disappointed. However, I wish that I had a chance to try the Trueleo on my turbo 3.4L but now that I'm in the 3800SC camp , I'm just wondering if it's been tried before.
Although on a stock 2.8L it may not get "bonzai" performance, I do think it will be better than the WCF intake that he was looking at and he will actually spend less money on what I feel is a better quality part. I don't know anyone who has run a turbo with the trueleo yet but if someone does do it, It should work very well. What did you do with your old engine? If you sold it, The trueleo may be something the new owner may want to try.
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10:24 AM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15722 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
Although on a stock 2.8L it may not get "bonzai" performance, I do think it will be better than the WCF intake that he was looking at and he will actually spend less money on what I feel is a better quality part. I don't know anyone who has run a turbo with the trueleo yet but if someone does do it, It should work very well. What did you do with your old engine? If you sold it, The trueleo may be something the new owner may want to try.
It appears that we basically agree. The WCF just appears to have a larger plenum while the Trueleo utilizes larger runners. The Trueleo should be better but cosmetically the WCF manifold wins!! As for my previous project and it's really not old: The turbocharged 3.4L w modified TH125H trans. is now sitting in the corner of the garage on a cradle with everything still attached. It can be dropped into any Fiero w minimal effort in less than a days work.. I have over $6000 invested into it and since it was driven only to special events it has less than 2500 miles on it. I decided not to try and sell it and take a large loss, so in 08 it will probably be installed in another 87GT that I own and then sold as a complete turbocharged 3.4L car.
------------------ 87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds 2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress Engine Controls, PCM goodies, re-programming & odd electronics stuff " I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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02:53 PM
Francis T Member
Posts: 6620 From: spotsylvania va. usa Registered: Oct 2003
I don't know anyone who has run a turbo with the trueleo yet but if someone does do it, It should work very well. QUOTE]
We have actually sold quite a few intakes to guys doing turbos (2.8 - 3.4). On that topic. I had to make a few adapters for bigger TBs for the turbo guys. One guy used a 5.0 Mustang TB ! My 86GT here in the in signature picture has one of our intakes and a turbo. It works nice too since my turbo is setup to come in around 3k the intake gives me quicker revs etc. Im running 7lbs boost with 9:1 fordged pistons and Crane cam, headers, etc etc.
Just thought i would throw in my 2 cents. I emailed wcf some time in the past asking for more information on their intake setup to see if they had any dyno results, or any such numbers to help sell me on the product. The response that i received was something along the lines of no we do not have any dyno results but the "ass-o-meter" said there is a difference in power. I have had no experience with either intake, but i think i would go with the Trueleo set-up due to the threads stating how much people love the results and the product, not to mention they have actual dyno charts to prove it. In the pictures i have seen i have never seen a wcf intake setup on anyones car and never heard anyone talking about it. So i would assume that there are better more cost effective set-ups out there then what wcf is selling or from the sound of it, not selling. Please note, no disrespect to wcf or the people of wcf they are Fiero enthusiasts just like me and i have done business in the past with them and been pleased with my purchase. Hope this helps.
West coast fiero headers produce 5% horse power increase,better than many others in dyno test,, expensive FIERO borla pipe exhaust system produce 5% horse power increase ""out standing product"'EXPENSIVE $500.OO TO $700.OO web site is on previous post here,, the best modification for V 6 2.8 port exhaust & intake & replace Y pipe or port then ceramic coat or wrap manifolds to prevent cracking,, a stock V 6 2.8 produces 110 horse power,, you can get 15 horse power with the port and wrap,.. don,t sneer this is good for the 2.8..an 140 hp V6 is "fast".. horse power numbers are thrown around but this is real.. I am in the process of doing this to my G.T 2.8 along with 50 other projects ,I am going to home ceramic coat my exhaust(not recomended) reading dyno testing make truelo exhaust seem FAR AWAY best, I do not know him..I have never seen a truelo exhaust ,, but the sane members report Excellent members that have truelo love them... I denie the reports going around that I married my first wife because her father left her a fortune ,I would have married her no matter who left her the fortune
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11:26 PM
Oct 2nd, 2007
Mr.PBody Member
Posts: 3172 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Registered: Oct 2006
Well I took the dremel to my stock neck and the openings to the runners (recessed the curve back) for a few hours because I was bored and the ass-o-meter felt it, and that was free. BTW guys read his sig. 3.3 V6. So maybe he isn't running stock. I've never heard of a 3.3 but I would like to know what he is running. I am trying to buy a truleo off of a friend right now. $600 is alot but Francis kind of curbed the market, WCF is $795 + all thier BS and they are terrible people with worse service. Save yourself $500-$600 and alot of headaches and buy the Truleo, its got real dyno charts, real results, and real people have actually bought them. I found no record ever of any member buying the WCF intake, I have seen pics of people who work there and they don't even have it.
Speaking of the Trueleo Manifold...I have a question...Why build a killer intake manifold for the the 2.8 V6 Fiero and do a dyno of it on a 3.4? Just wondering. I love your product...But that info. did not make sense. Thanks!
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12:51 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Speaking of the Trueleo Manifold...I have a question...Why build a killer intake manifold for the the 2.8 V6 Fiero and do a dyno of it on a 3.4? Just wondering. I love your product...But that info. did not make sense. Thanks!
because most folk will swap in a 3.4 instead of rebuilding the 2.8 and, then they realize how weak the stock 2.8 upper plenum is......
I love to look at a V 8 in a fiero ! most people are never going to do a swap because it is expensive and a pain in the buttocks,,any thing that helps the majority of fiero owners is outstanding, there are no great gains to be made with this engine but it is a great daily driver ,or 3 days a week,no car has a better looking intake than the fiero.. any thing that helps the average guy is worth 1000 post about swaps,yet the most people will view the swaps I even occassionaly peek,even tho my idea of a great fiero is the stock engine! I seldom exceed 75mph but the speed I reach 75 is not reALLY practical,, I love to go thru the gears and listen to a cherry bombed duke sound off,have no desire for a V8,,love the duke but realize the 2.8 and 2.5 duke are far past prime tho the duke in the 88 5 speed is econo treasure for cheap old motor heads.. the duke and 2.8 are so incompatible,,there is nothing in common to fight about
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03:46 PM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
Your joking right? The majority of Fiero owners do not say the 2.8 is crap and decide to throw money into a 3.4 upgrade.
not joking, anyone that is trying to get some power out of their fiero style 60 degrees promptly switches out to something that is not blatently limited in the flow department.
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03:49 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Originally posted by WisconsinGT: Your joking right? The majority of Fiero owners do not say the 2.8 is crap and decide to throw money into a 3.4 upgrade.
a 3.4 upgrade is usually cheaper & quicker than a 2.8 rebuild - especially if a bearing is spun.
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03:54 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Speaking of the Trueleo Manifold...I have a question...Why build a killer intake manifold for the the 2.8 V6 Fiero and do a dyno of it on a 3.4? Just wondering. I love your product...But that info. did not make sense. Thanks!
The Trueleo was originally designed for the 3.4 swaps, IIRC. The stock Fiero intake isn't bad on a stock 2.8, but as people have mentioned, it doesn't flow enough for the 3.4. Even porting the plenum and adding a bored throttle body, it still can't feed enough air on even a stock 3.4. The big problem is, as you go past 4500 rpm on the 3.4 and reach the airflow limit of the intake, your manifold vacuum actually starts to increase due to the restriction. It can get up to 1.5" of vacuum at that point. Anything over 0.5" vacuum is considered too restrictive. In addition, the ECM sees the vacuum going back up and thinks you're easing off the gas, so the engine bascially hits a performance wall above 4500 rpm.
The Trueleo fixes this problem and allows the 3.4 to perform the way it should. It's not hard to build a decent 3.4 up to the 200 HP range. You could never approach that with the stock Fiero intake.
The two prime reasons people use the 3.4 swap is that it looks just like the factory 2.8, so it's a good swap if you want to bump up the power a bit and keep the OEM look. And it's the easiest swap to do because of it's similarity to the 2.8.
Your joking right? The majority of Fiero owners do not say the 2.8 is crap and decide to throw money into a 3.4 upgrade.
Many of the folks who's 2.8L is near the end of it service life (or has died) generally swap in a 3.4L. The slightly larger displacement, better oiling, and the ease of the swap is what makes it a good replacement. Even if someone decides to build the stock 2.8L, once modified the intake is a restrictive area. The Trueleo was designed to provide an aftermarket performance intake for ANY iron headed 60* V-6, It just happens that a few folks were swapping in 3.4L engines and getting data was easier with a 3.4L than the 2.8L at that time.
The Trueleo was originally designed for the 3.4 swaps, IIRC. The stock Fiero intake isn't bad on a stock 2.8, but as people have mentioned, it doesn't flow enough for the 3.4. Even porting the plenum and adding a bored throttle body, it still can't feed enough air on even a stock 3.4. The big problem is, as you go past 4500 rpm on the 3.4 and reach the airflow limit of the intake, your manifold vacuum actually starts to increase due to the restriction. It can get up to 1.5" of vacuum at that point. Anything over 0.5" vacuum is considered too restrictive. In addition, the ECM sees the vacuum going back up and thinks you're easing off the gas, so the engine bascially hits a performance wall above 4500 rpm.
The Trueleo fixes this problem and allows the 3.4 to perform the way it should. It's not hard to build a decent 3.4 up to the 200 HP range. You could never approach that with the stock Fiero intake.
The two prime reasons people use the 3.4 swap is that it looks just like the factory 2.8, so it's a good swap if you want to bump up the power a bit and keep the OEM look. And it's the easiest swap to do because of it's similarity to the 2.8.
I am sorry...I was under the impression that the majority of Fiero owners go the 3800 route for upgrades. Thats what I was thinking. Anyway, I did not know that the Manifold was built with the 3.4 in mind. Sorry! Anyway...carry on. It has become quite obvious that I am far removed from the "In crowd" when it comes to Fieros!
