Hello all. I peruse this forum on occasion but have never felt the need to register until now. I guess I need a bit of advice and from what I hear this is the best place to do so. I had an 86 GT that I did a V8 engine swap with a couple of years back. After researching this forum and other internet sites I understand that the most well respected kit on the market is the V8 Archie Master Build kit. I purchased one and after a bumpy start I finally finished the swap. Archie was good at answering questions the first few times but he just didn't seem quite as technical as I had evisioned for the sole inventor of the V8 swap. By the time I was well vested in the swap I began to notice many things wrong with it. I know Archie's a busy guy and I tried not to bother him too much but now that I am ready to build another car I am wondering if I shoud do business with him again or consider another vehicle besides the Fiero for my swap. I didn't join here to tattle or bash anyone.....I respect Archie but the kit itself was a bit...well.....outdated. Now I'm not so pompous as to think that I can run out and build a kit, but I was dissappointed with many aspects of the outcome of my experience. Please let me explain.

The cradle prep was quite simple. After using a simple warmed over small block 350 I began to notice some flaws in the design of the kit. In no particular order: The alternator arm was not designed correctly to flush mount with the belt. I was told to stack washers to shim it up, but I felt it could have been designed better to begin with to fill some gaps or have better adjustment. I also noticed that the stabilizer arm that the kit said to mount to the block was out of line and dysfunctional where I was told to install it. It did nothing in its recommended place so I fabricated a bracket and padeyes to install it at the base of the TH125 to get it to perform its job better. I also fabricated some semi-solid motor mounts that would work better than the stock ones against the advice of many people including Archie. The install of the oil filter relocator was suboptimal at best. I was told to install some caps and "grind them down" flush for clearance. Why do this when many companies like Aeroquip and Russell make great products for this application ? I know there's not a ton of relocator kits out there but would it also be not too much to ask to have a gasket made for the swap instead of having to "cut your own" out of gasket material ?? I chose to countersink my bolts to gain clearance and ordered some caps from Summit to modify the kit. I also had to reconfigure the starter location of the mini starter to get it to function correctly. I felt with some modiication of the adapter plate a simple S10 starter probably could have been used. I mean people do those swaps all day long with GM S10 starters with no probems. Speaking of the adapter plate, some of the green bolts broke under proper torque and others were too short for my block. I threw them away and ordered all new fasteners from ARP racing. In fact the only thing from the kit I didn't have to modify was the balancer pulley and the adapter plate...which I feel anyone could CNC out of as good shop. The exhaust recommendations I got were too restrictive...even with the Sanderson headers. I went back to ported manifolds and cut out the trunk to give my exhaust man more room to work with. Plus I got around the heat issue with my trany sensor being too close. Speaking of heat...I had to upgrade to a 4 core and you would think a kit builder of this caliber would have some sort of fan kit to modify the fans. I fabbed my own kit out of Flexalite dual fans to replace the Fiero ones in the exact stock location. When all was said and done I was told that I neded a longer shaft for the passenger side axle but no metion of this was made until I needed one. When it was time to drive it I feel that the V8 totally killed the Fiero's driveablility. It was not the curve loving car I had before. It wouldn't handle right due to the added weight of the V8. I rebuilt the suspnsion, lowered it and added sway bars in the rear and that helped a little but it was nothing like before. Faster, yes. Better car, no. Don' get me wrong I LOVED my Fiero. I had a blast racing it and revving at the stoplights. But it seemed like I was reflecting on the times before the swap as better times. In retrospect I wonder if I would have been better off with a Caddy swap or SC3800 ?

Have any other swap people here had these problems ? I mean I don't want to get off on the wrong foot but I'm wanting to "poll the people" here to see if I am the only one that had to redesign the V8 Archie kit to get it to function correctly ? I felt like all I really needed was the adapter plate. I practically improved on 90% of the kit myself. The kit in my opinion is well.....just too OLD. It seems that if I were the one to invent the sole V8 swap kit, being the owner of the ONLY kit on the market then I could approach vendors (such as the aforementioned ones) to prototype specific parts for this swap using high quality parts and name brand poducts. If not just sell the adapter plate and a set of instructions. Archie was there for me but seem annoyed and busy all the time so I felt uncomfortable dealing with him towards the end so I simply stopped calling and started redesigning the kit by my own standards. For the amount of money spent.....I want your opinions if the kit has changed any or are these problems still there ? He seems like a legitiate builder and has pics of his rebodies that are cool as hell. I know he does chops but how hard is that to do ? The Fiero has to be the easiest chop in the automotive community. I am just looking for direction here before I swap another Fiero. I might move on to a different car altogether. I have since sold the 86 350 and really miss driving it. Any comments or advice is greatly appreciated. It seems like there are alot of intelligent and technical people here so I hope someone can help me. Thanks in advance.

[This message has been edited by GT Quick (edited 10-05-2007).]

wow this will blow up quick I believe

Where in Tx are you? Since you went with the auto trans, then yes you would have been better off going with a 3800SC/65E. I am sure the kit hasnt been updated in many many years and to me the kit is way out of date and needs to be looked over and updated. With the LS4/LSX out and being installed into Fieros, it will be the new V-8 swap and will be hands done better than what is out there now. This is all of course just my opionion so take it how you want.

ahhhh **** ! lol

archie is acually a main member of this forum...

I have just recently done a 350 conversion on my 84 with Archies master kit. I modified certain things, but I chose to do the modifications. Archies kit will get you up and going. You cannot hold him responsible because you chose to do things a certain way. Are you going to hold Pontiac responsible because they did not install KYB struts on the fiero? No. Everybody does things different. And everybody has different taste. Archie sold you his kit with his directions and his customer support. If you chose to do things outside the box, that is your choice. You have to remember he also runs an established buisiness and he still finds time to talk with the people who purchase his merchadise and help them as much as he can.

I hope you decide to do another fiero. They are fun to drive. Remember you don't have to buy a master build kit from Archie. I'm sure you can buy certain items from him and do the rest of the mods yourself. Or fabricate everything yourself. If you need help, this forum would be more than willing to give you the helping hand that you need.

To each his own. Many people start with Archie's kit and customize it to their liking. I've driven and ridden in cars Archie's built himself and didn't notice any of the problems you mentioned.
If you used a solid cast iron V8, you would pick up about 160 lbs in engine weight. With aluminum heads, a V8 5-speed is only about 30 lbs heavier than a stock V6 automatic. If you went with a solid cast iron engine plus the automatic, that would be the heaviest engine combo you could get, so your handling would be affected more than other swaps. You mention some problems such as his kit not modifying the fans. What kind of modification are you talking about?

As for the handling, did you switch to poly or solid cradle bushings? That's a serious weak link in the 84-87 handling, and the addition of the V8's weight and power would only make that worse.

Given your input, it sounds like you'd be happier with a different swap than the V8. I'd recommend a 3800SC from a Grand Prix GTP, complete with it's matching automatic transmission. Keep in mind it will also be heavier than the stock drivetrain, so you will still have handling issues if they were caused just by additional weight.

Yes with the LS family being a good affordable swap engine I would have thought the kits would grow with the times. I'm glad I'm not the only one noticing they are way outdated. As Fieros approach the 25 year mark they have potential for a good classic swap car if peopel would update the market for them. I don't understand how someone can not use their resources and get with the times ? Is it just old shoe ?

What's with the popcorn ? Has this topic been brought up before to him ? I hope I'm not causing trouble on my statement so let's keep it civil here.

Maybe you could give your name, location & date you bought a kit, so I can look up your file.

Thanks

Archie

BTW, if you've been following this forum, then you already know that I've been constantly updating the kits to include all of the popular LSx engine.

A

Are you THE Archie ? If so then no offense my friend but if I wanted to contact you about this already I would have done so. I came here first to poll the people like I said. This being a public forum I am liking the input I am getting already to help make my decision. If you would care to itemize, quote, and comment on any of the above problems in my post then I am interested in the evolution of the V8 kit and the changes that have been made to absolve the problems I and others have had with it. If not then I would just like to hear more comments from more people, be it pros or cons. I don't frequent the forum enough but I haven't seen alot of changes on your website about anything new. I didn't even know you were a member here.Thank you.

If Archie can look up when you bought your kit, he might be able to give you a better idea on what changes have been made since then, etc.

You can also check this thread: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/024804.html
Archie has been posting about many of his swaps in this thread since Dec. 2002.

If you wanted to try another V8 swap, you'd be better off going with his Economy kit to get just the basics, and then you can add and customize the rest to your liking.

Did you take any pics of your Fiero? I'd love to see any problem areas and the solutions you came up with, like the radiator fan.

I cant remember when I got my kit.
Maybe 94
I got the
Econo kit
Exhaust kit
Oil filter relocation kit.

I used my own bolts. The ones that came in the kit were shorter than what the threaded holes would accommodate and I think more threads of holding force are always better. But if he’s use this setup time and time again. Then I have no reason to believe that it wouldn’t have worked.

I didn’t like the exhaust pipes with the crinkle bends and they rusted out in about 2 years.
He as since got a new pipe bender that makes nice round bends.

I did cut my own gasket for the oil relocation plate as he suggested and haven’t dripped a drop of oil. I have more oil seepage around the Fel-Pro brand oil pan gasket. But with over 60,000 miles I still don’t have any drips on my driveway.

I didn’t have to get a longer CV shaft for the right side, but did have to get a shorter shaft on the drivers side to be able to set the rear camber.
But since I haven’t owned the car since it was new, it may have had a replacement CV shaft already in it that was of the incorrect size.

I’m not an Archie “lover”.

But if you want a V8, and you want technical support with your project, then you need to buy from archie.

I’m pondering a 4.9 V8, a 4.3 vortec, or a 3800 for my next swap.
I’ll probably do a 4.3 and buy the needed parts from archie.

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_{Buddy Craigg - there are two "G"s in my last name
Ling = 84SE modified
Julia C = 85GT stock (kinda)
Anna = 84 base coupe (one owner car)
Ivy = 67 Pontiac Catalina
KCFOG}

Some reading material on 3800s in my sig.

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[16:58] davepettinelli: mine's got a court-apponted psychiatrist
[16:58] davepettinelli: yay girls
[16:59] GTPimpin: mine whines alot
[16:59] GTPimpin: her name is fiero


Ultimate 3800 swap thread

www.yahoogroups.com

3800v6superchargedfieros is a group there.

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1988 Fiero Formula T-tops
CJB 143 of 1252 "factory T-top cars"

I've been a customer of Archie's for 5 years. I've built two Finales and put in one of his V8 kits. Even though I didn't buy the V8 kit from him (it was a project started but never completed by another person) he sent me the installation video at no charge and answered all my questions by phone. He's done the same thing with the Finale kits and believe me, since I built the first Roadster by a customer, there were a lot of phone calls. His voice often does not reflect his attitude and he sounds a lot more curt on the phone than he is when you talk to him in person, even though he speaks the same way. With no body language or facial expressions, it's hard to judge someone's demeanor.

I've also done numerous 4.9L Caddy swaps, a 3.4L pushrod swap, and am working on another beast for our race car.

Archie was good at answering questions the first few times but he just didn't seem quite as technical as I had evisioned for the sole inventor of the V8 swap

No reflection on you, but consider for a moment that Archie spends day after day answering phone calls with many of them being as basic as which way to turn a bolt to tighten it. He has learned over many years that if you add a lot of technical information, many people are just confused. He adheres to the KISS principle (Keep It Simple, Stupid).

The alternator arm was not designed correctly to flush mount with the belt.

Instructions for alignment are on the tape. Every kit has to have SOME method of alignment and that's not exclusive to Archie. I've put B&M superchargers on, helped putting on Whipplechargers, and many, many other kits. They all need shimming of SOME kind for proper alignment. I guess I'm not sure what you'd have liked to do differently. It was not big deal and just took a couple of washers.

I also noticed that the stabilizer arm that the kit said to mount to the block was out of line and dysfunctional where I was told to install it.

I had no such issues but I do seem to remember it had to be shimmed a bit.


also noticed that the stabilizer arm that the kit said to mount to the block was out of line and dysfunctional where I was told to install it. It did nothing in its recommended place so I fabricated a bracket and padeyes to install it at the base of the TH125 to get it to perform its job better.

If you didn't mount it as recommended, how do you know "it did nothing"? I'm confused on this. My swap was a 5 speed but the arm, when mounted according to instructions, works fine. I do think a more conventional dogbone would support better, but we'll get into this in a minute.

I also fabricated some semi-solid motor mounts that would work better than the stock ones against the advice of many people including Archie.

If you didn't do it the way Archie designed and recommended, how do you KNOW it's better? The front motor mount is supposed to be solid mounted, if you do it per his instructions, so how is a "semi-solid" mounting going to work better? Maybe that's why you felt the support was "dysfunctional"? The kit is a system, if you change one thing, you may be forced to change others.

The install of the oil filter relocator was suboptimal at best. I was told to install some caps and "grind them down" flush for clearance. Why do this when many companies like Aeroquip and Russell make great products for this application ? I know there's not a ton of relocator kits out there but would it also be not too much to ask to have a gasket made for the swap instead of having to "cut your own" out of gasket material ??

Perhaps your expectations of what a "kit" should be are higher than mine. I've been doing this stuff for 20 years and I have YET to find one kit that had every single piece included and no fabrication required. To be honest, I don't remember a single thing odd about the oil filter relocation kit and I've installed maybe a dozen or more over the years in boats and trucks. It was a standard adapter kit, so I don't see a problem there.

I also had to reconfigure the starter location of the mini starter to get it to function correctly. I felt with some modiication of the adapter plate a simple S10 starter probably could have been used. I mean people do those swaps all day long with GM S10 starters with no probems.

An example of "some of these people" would be nice. I've used the mini starters before as well on other projects and again, there was nothing odd here as compared to other kits in the industry.


Speaking of the adapter plate, some of the green bolts broke under proper torque and others were too short for my block. I threw them away and ordered all new fasteners from ARP racing.

And what toque would that be? I didn't have any problems with the supplied bolts and they're still tight.

In fact the only thing from the kit I didn't have to modify was the balancer pulley and the adapter plate...which I feel anyone could CNC out of as good shop.

I could probably make them on my lathe that isn't a CNC. In fact, I could have milled and lathed the whole kit. I chose to buy one instead.

The exhaust recommendations I got were too restrictive...even with the Sanderson headers. I went back to ported manifolds and cut out the trunk to give my exhaust man more room to work with.

On what do you base the fact that the recommended exhaust, for a "warmed over" 350, was too restrictive? Before and after tests using Archie's design, then yours? Or just your gut instinct it was too restrictive? You cut the trunk and that makes things a lot easier. I know, I've done 4 4.9L Caddy swaps and that's how I prefer to do them, but that's not how Archie designs his systems. He designs them to use the stock trunk because that's what most of his customers prefer. Because you don't, doesn't mean that's how everyone else thinks.

Plus I got around the heat issue with my trany sensor being too close.

I presume you're talking about the VSS. Again, I don't have an automatic, but if you didn't use Archie's exhaust, how do you know the issue would exist if you HAD used it?

Speaking of heat...I had to upgrade to a 4 core and you would think a kit builder of this caliber would have some sort of fan kit to modify the fans. I fabbed my own kit out of Flexalite dual fans to replace the Fiero ones in the exact stock location.

Archie sells the 4 core and the stock fan works on it, as far as I can see. If you chose to change it, that was your choice.

When all was said and done I was told that I neded a longer shaft for the passenger side axle but no metion of this was made until I needed one.

On the manual, the transmission mounts in the stock location, give or take a fraction of an inch, and the stock axles work just fine.

I mean I don't want to get off on the wrong foot but I'm wanting to "poll the people" here to see if I am the only one that had to redesign the V8 Archie kit to get it to function correctly ? I felt like all I really needed was the adapter plate. I practically improved on 90% of the kit myself. The kit in my opinion is well.....just too OLD.

First off, I think you DID join specifically to bash Archie's kit. Your post did nothing else. Fine, have at it. If you are really new here, do a search and you'll find DOZENS of people that have used his kits on this forum and had no more trouble with them than one would expect when they put a V8 into an engine compartment never designed to hold it. Compromises have to be made in any engineering change like this and it sounds like you don't like the compromises. That's fine, you don't have to, but I'm going to tell you right now that if you think you can do better than Archie's kit, the Fiero community would welcome an alternative and you can just have at it. Many others have tried and they are all either gone or in bankruptcy now.

When you make comments like "I know he does chops but how hard is that to do ?" my response is why don't you just start a thread and show us how easy it is? Don't forget to include the side windows for the chop, the rear window, and the interior pieces so it looks factory again................

When all is said and done, after you've stated "When it was time to drive it I feel that the V8 totally killed the Fiero's driveablility." You close by saying "I have since sold the 86 350 and really miss driving it.". Seems to be a bit of a contradiction there, don't you think? Make up your mind, you either liked it or you didn't......

Good luck and you're welcome, even though I have this suspicion that I just fed the trolls, but I won't feed this one anymore if that's the case.

John Stricker

If I had the money to buy another kit I would buy one from him and a nice 6 speed to go along with it.
He sells kits, not mechanical ability is it Ferrari? Well no but it defiantly gets the job done.

[This message has been edited by Jake_Dragon (edited 10-06-2007).]

What engine you use does make a difference. I went from a 2.8L with auto to a ZZ4 and a 4-spd manual and the weight gained was only 30 lbs. A 3800SC weighs more than a SBC with aluminum heads and intake.
As for handling, The semi-solid motor mounts would have aided in torque steer especially if the cradle bushings were also stock.
I run around some local road courses and when I had the V-6, I modded the suspension. Later when the V-8 was installed the only handling issue I had was I had to feather the gas a little more due to the increased power.

You shoud give Archie your name, He can look up what kit you bought (he does sell a few different ones) and then see if the changes you did should be incorporated. The best way to improve something is to give feedback and discuss the difference's. He has made kits for updated engines like the LSx and has also made kits to install a G6 6-speed manual trans.

As for what to swap next, There are so many choices and not one of them is "The Best". You would need to sit down and figure out what you want out of the car then build to suit your tastes. Just about every engine GM has made in the last 10-15 years has been installed into a Fiero and each engine makes the Fiero behave differently. Do you want a high reving 3.4L DOHC motor or a 400hp LS2 hooked up to a 6-spd manual trans??

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Happiness isn't around the corner...
Happiness IS the corner.
ZZ4 Powered !!

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 10-06-2007).]

This is my 35th year of building kit cars for myself and helping other people "troubleshoot" their projects. I have also done several engine conversions VW, rotary, V6, V8, etc using various companies engine kits, adapters, etc. I am not a perfectionist by any means but do show these cars and drive them almost every single weekend from Friday thru Sunday because they are a blast to drive. I did purchase a Finale kit from Archie last Fall and got it on the road this May.
First, let me comment on Archie. Dealing with him was a easy for me. He took my payments as I requested on a timely basis. He was within 1 week of the pick-up time I requested. He personally packed us up on a Saturday morning and gave me assembly tips while looking at that yellow Finale convertible in the shop. This was the best experience with a kit car supplier I've ever had over the years. No crap, just a good business transaction. Keep in mind the Finale, if you've shopped around at all, is one of the cheapest full body kits out there.
As for the Finale kit itself, I like the fact that I got a Build Video rather than a manual. The video was a little outdated but not anymore so than most build manuals I used in the past. Archie did give me an updated picture DVD that showed the further mod.s needed in the kit. That filled in the missing bits of updates. As far as actual building I found the Finale kit to be the easiest of the kits I've built over the years although I tweaked it more myself because I wanted it to appear as more of a "production" car which almost everyone assumes it is. That was my choice.
Engines??? In this car I've got the 3800 SC with the matching auto. It's a blast to drive and I think it suits the character of the car better. I was totally convinced I was going V8 until I rode in one. As far as conversions go I don't think there is one engine kit made that you're not going to have to do a little different or make changes to. If you read over Darth's current LS4 swap you'll see (yeah, I know it's not a kit but the same principles apply) there's lots of directions you can go with things.
I guess the bottom line on all of this is the word "kit." Any kit, is a compilation of parts that have been used before to accomplish a build task. The maker of the kit has used these parts before for this particular purpose. YOU will always add to, tweak, modify these kits to your taste or performance levels. One of the biggest problems guys are having with the 3800 installs is they don't have a set installation kit available. I just see kits differently than most people. To me they're just the starting point in a project.

Thanks for the reponses. To John Stricker, thank you for the "lengthy" post. I'll swallow the jabs you took at me like a man, but please understand that I have built a few hotrods and engines myself ranging from SCCA cars to drag cars to show cars to lowriders. I know which way and HOW to torque a bolt to proper specs and another person in this thread even commented on my same problem so I must not be that far off with my problems. I am just trying to see if they have been addressed before I drop another 3K on a kit that I thought was primitive in design. Yes I loved driving my Fiero....or just having a Fiero. After I sold it I never bought another one. That's why I said the 350 killed the driveability of it, but was still fun to drive. Therefore I miss any Fiero.

The stabilizer arm didn't work when I installed it and test launched the car. I even mounted a video camera to the back sandsa decklid to see where the problem was. I blamed the engine jump on the motor mounts so I bought poly mounts and MIG welded some pencil sized cold roll rods to connect the mounts so they will flex a little bit still be more solid than just sitting there floating like a factory mount. THAT didn't work so that's when I refabbed the mounting location of the arm I was thinking "couldn't someone have done trial and error on their time instead of mine" (like the inventor of the kit maybe) ? The exhaust issue was brought up my my exhaust man....a lifetime veteran engine builder and circle track owner who told me I would have problems, and I did, so we redid it.

As far as the comments about the chops, yes I've done a couple of chops on cars and trucks. Done a couple of gullwing lowriders, and I know the difference between round turrets, square turrets and FIBERGLASS turrets so yes it is easy and anyone that has done one knows it. I have also done a great bit of interior refabrication. I hung up the dusty work years ago but please don't act like I did not or DO not know what I am talking about. I know about the glass, the interior, and working for people knowing how picky people are.

And on the topic of Archie's attitude well I never treated my customers that way. How many times can a business offer grumpy customer service and expect repeat customers ? That's just poor business sense or stupidity. Hire a tech line monkey or someething if you are too busy for the people that support you. Did I not start my thread asking opinions before I made a decision whether or not to BE a repeat customer ? I have nothing to prove here......I just joined for some information and am pleased so far. But it sounds like nothing much has changed on the kit and people have just redesigned their own kits like I did. So I might just look for the "just the adapter plate" option or hit up EBAY for one if I've still got to put together my own kit. For the money I paid Archie it wasn't worth it. Sorry.

Having already done a V8, you might want to consider a 3800SC. They fit real nice in the engine compartment, (actually a much better fit than the 2.8L ) provide good gas economy (30+ Hwy MPG is achievable), driveability, reliability and with modifications have powered Grand Prixs to 9 second 1/4 mile runs. It is an easier and less expensive install than the V8 .
As for V8 Archie; I don't believe it possible that anyone can make a universal V8 swap kit that will allow all small block variants to fit without some changes on the user end. When you purchased the kit, did you tell Archie exactly what engine swap you intended to do? Archie has been making conversion kits for a long time and we don't hear many complaints about his stuff.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds
2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress
Engine Controls, PCM goodies,
re-programming & odd electronics stuff
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

"Archie has been making conversion kits for a long time and we don't hear many complaints about his stuff. "

To be honest with you I don't think people know any better. Either that or I'm just one picky mofo. I can swallow a few changes here and there but for the money and the age of the kit these should have been addressed years ago.

One thing I have noticed about this forum is people seem to think that there should only be 1 v8 kit out there, you cant bash it, or ask about it, that is blasphemy.

Like John mentioned, it sounds like some of your changes may have caused problems in other areas. You complained about the torque rod not working, but you also changed the engine mounts. Most people I know recommend going with all the same types of mounts. If you used a "semi-solid" mount you've added some play into the drivetrain that wasn't supposed to be there, and then you have to figure out how to deal with it. I've driven an LT1 5-speed swap that was fully solid mounted per Archie's method and it drove fine - there were no issues with the engine moving around and vibration was only slightly more than my stock 2.8.

I can appreciate where you would want to do things differently than Archie recommends. If 10 different people all designed 10 V8 kits, they'd all be different in some way - unless you just copied someone else's work.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/068888.html maybe this will give you some more information to make your choice.

quote Originally posted by Zimmer: One thing I have noticed about this forum is people seem to think that there should only be 1 v8 kit out there, you cant bash it, or ask about it, that is blasphemy.

That's is incorrect. There are two main kit designs out there: Archie's and Zumalt's. Zumalt has gone out of business, and there were several engineering problems with the kit that in my opinion make it an undesirable kit, but there are people on here who run it with great success. Any other kits I've seen are typically copies of either Archie's or Zumalt's. I haven't seen a 3rd company come up with their own original design yet.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: That's is incorrect. There are two main kit designs out there: Archie's and Zumalt's. Zumalt has gone out of business, and there were several engineering problems with the kit that in my opinion make it an undesirable kit, but there are people on here who run it with great success. Any other kits I've seen are typically copies of either Archie's or Zumalt's. I haven't seen a 3rd company come up with their own original design yet.

OH WOW 2 KITS. See my point? Why change or update something when you have no competition? Arent you the same guy bashing the guy in the forsale section for selling V8 kits right now? You prove my point.

quote Originally posted by Zimmer: OH WOW 2 KITS. See my point? Why change or update something when you have no competition? Arent you the same guy bashing the guy in the forsale section for selling V8 kits right now? You prove my point.

My question is whether you have purchased anything from Archie? If not then, like me, you have no dogs in this race.

You've never, ever seen me bashing anyone that used a Zumalt kit. I've never even commented when people buy the Archie COPIES that have floated around. That's a matter for personal ethics. I wish there were 5 people out there making kits, at least, because competition breeds innovation which results in higher quality with lower prices. But that's not going to happen because there is not a sufficient market there to support even 2 or 3 manufacturers. There isn't even enough market to keep GM making dew wipes, much less the one in 1,000 (or less) that actually plunk down the money for a V8 kit.

To be honest, I don't know why Archie sells kits at all. Ed Parks doesn't anymore. Reason? Too many people that just can't do anything on their own tieing him up on the phone all day. I don't know how Archie gets anything done at all with the phone glued to his ear the way it is and if it were me, I wouldn't do it.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Zimmer: One thing I have noticed about this forum is people seem to think that there should only be 1 v8 kit out there, you cant bash it, or ask about it, that is blasphemy.

quote Originally posted by Hudini: My question is whether you have purchased anything from Archie? If not then, like me, you have no dogs in this race.

I dont have to purchase something from someone to have an opinion do I? I'm not bashing Archie or anyone else, I'm talking to these guys that post in everythread(because they do) that someone makes about using another kit or a problem they have with what they got from archie.

Look around the forum, its normally the same guys.

Anyone as smart as you, with all the answers, just buy the economy kit if you want to go with a V8. That's about as basic as it gets and then you can show us all exactly how it should be done.

Better yet, just work a deal with Archie and get a good price on 5 or 6 kits and stock them, then develop all your own mounts and accessories, and YOU sell the "NEW AND IMPROVED LOTS BETTER THAN V8 ARCHIE'S" kit. Bet you can't sell it as cheaply as he does. And don't forget to offer the same telephone support he does. And the installation Video.

Anyone that's done the work you have, please share with us pictures, or a website, so we can see what you've done. We're all car freaks here and enjoy neat projects. As for mine, do a search for my name, that will give you the work I've done on Fiero's, which I've only been into since about '01 and I'm over 50 years old.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by GT Quick: Thanks for the reponses. To John Stricker, thank you for the "lengthy" post. I'll swallow the jabs you took at me like a man, but please understand that I have built a few hotrods and engines myself ranging from SCCA cars to drag cars to show cars to lowriders. I know which way and HOW to torque a bolt to proper specs and another person in this thread even commented on my same problem so I must not be that far off with my problems. I am just trying to see if they have been addressed before I drop another 3K on a kit that I thought was primitive in design. Yes I loved driving my Fiero....or just having a Fiero. After I sold it I never bought another one. That's why I said the 350 killed the driveability of it, but was still fun to drive. Therefore I miss any Fiero. The stabilizer arm didn't work when I installed it and test launched the car. I even mounted a video camera to the back sandsa decklid to see where the problem was. I blamed the engine jump on the motor mounts so I bought poly mounts and MIG welded some pencil sized cold roll rods to connect the mounts so they will flex a little bit still be more solid than just sitting there floating like a factory mount. THAT didn't work so that's when I refabbed the mounting location of the arm I was thinking "couldn't someone have done trial and error on their time instead of mine" (like the inventor of the kit maybe) ? The exhaust issue was brought up my my exhaust man....a lifetime veteran engine builder and circle track owner who told me I would have problems, and I did, so we redid it. As far as the comments about the chops, yes I've done a couple of chops on cars and trucks. Done a couple of gullwing lowriders, and I know the difference between round turrets, square turrets and FIBERGLASS turrets so yes it is easy and anyone that has done one knows it. I have also done a great bit of interior refabrication. I hung up the dusty work years ago but please don't act like I did not or DO not know what I am talking about. I know about the glass, the interior, and working for people knowing how picky people are. And on the topic of Archie's attitude well I never treated my customers that way. How many times can a business offer grumpy customer service and expect repeat customers ? That's just poor business sense or stupidity. Hire a tech line monkey or someething if you are too busy for the people that support you. Did I not start my thread asking opinions before I made a decision whether or not to BE a repeat customer ? I have nothing to prove here......I just joined for some information and am pleased so far. But it sounds like nothing much has changed on the kit and people have just redesigned their own kits like I did. So I might just look for the "just the adapter plate" option or hit up EBAY for one if I've still got to put together my own kit. For the money I paid Archie it wasn't worth it. Sorry.

quote Originally posted by GT Quick: To be honest with you I don't think people know any better. Either that or I'm just one picky mofo. I can swallow a few changes here and there but for the money and the age of the kit these should have been addressed years ago.

Maybe so... Archie has been doing V8 Swaps into Fieros since 1985...in other words he knows what he's doing. Is his kit universally designed to fit every engine/transmission combination out there without any modifications? Probably not.

Could it be better? Like most things there is probably room for improvement. Archie's kit is designed for any person of any ability to be able to complete it. If you are smart enough to improve on the kit then more power to you. If you have the ability to design your own adapter plate from scratch go for it. If it's your own design and not a copy of someone else's and you can make a profit selling it, great.

Archie is a respected member of this forum but is regularly harrassed by trolls so if we seem defensive that's why. But a person who loves Fieros and is smart enough to do their own engine and body work is welcome here.

Thank you jscott. And to jstricker....do you own stocks in Archie's business or are you just in love with him ? Yes people do seem defensive here and I was not expecting that. Is Archie an investor of this forum too or am I out of line ? I'm not a computer guy so no I'm not about being able to connect pictures to emails and so forth or even documented alot of the older builds from years and years ago. Just an old hotrodder that got ahold of a Fiero and wanted more power like many others.

As for developing a kit...I'm not in the Fiero business guys...I just want input. As stated above for a man with no competition and the only other builder of a kit went out of business..........why has he not solved alot of simple problems ? Or does he not know what he is doing either ? Maybe he just has a rut and is stuck in it so to hell with upgrading the kit. I can see a guy like Archie saying "buy it or don't buy it I don't care". From my little dealings with him anyway. It only takes about 30 secs to sum up a man's integrity. Even on the phone.

"Better yet, just work a deal with Archie and get a good price on 5 or 6 kits and stock them, then develop all your own mounts and accessories, and YOU sell the "NEW AND IMPROVED LOTS BETTER THAN V8 ARCHIE'S" kit. "

Let's turn down the sarcasm a bit here please. I'm not wanting to build a kit, sell a kit or design a kit. I am just saying as a simple person like myself who has done 1 V8 swap it didn't take me long to redesign what someone doing it since 1985 supposedly has perfected in a cornered market. Why ?

I hear alot of people saying the other kits are "copys" of archies kit, my biggest complaint about that is: there are only so many ways to re-invent the wheel, everywheel ive seen is round, many look alike, when mounting a SBC bolt pattern to a 60* v6 type mounting, theres pretty much only one way to do it, so while the kits may appear similar there may be slight differences, even if they are exactly the same, someone else MAY have come up with a design that looks identical just because that design works.


GT Quick if you want me to i can look up the info on several kits ive seen, and send it to ya as far as pricing and what you get with the kits, there is a company or two that just lets you buy the parts of the kit that you want (like JUST the adapter plate and balancer) if your a do-it yourself person id suggest buying archies basic kit or someone elses basic kit, ive seen one member here selling some of the so called "copies" of archies basic kit for around $500-600.

also in my opinion if your going to do a sbc swap in a fiero us alloy heads and intake just to keep the weight closer to stock, i noticed a difference in handling when i went from a stock 4cyl to a 3800 series II in my fiero.
IF someone started making alloy heads for the 3800's id bet that they would start getting close to the weight of a stock 2.8L in a fiero.

While archies kit may have flaws, i cannot comment on them, ive never purchased an archie kit, or even an archie built/designed product, ive met archie at a couple shows and a informal get-together in mansfield ohio several years back, archie seems like a great guy to deal with or buy from, from what i learned, im sure if your making your living off your shop sometimes you'll get alittle annoyed when your trying to do something and have to stop to answer the phone, but i guess thats part of having good customer support.

i doubt you'll get any support from some of the other "copy" vendors.

matthew

[This message has been edited by m0sh_man (edited 10-06-2007).]

quote Originally posted by GT Quick: Let's turn down the sarcasm a bit here please. I'm not wanting to build a kit, sell a kit or design a kit. I am just saying as a simple person like myself who has done 1 V8 swap it didn't take me long to redesign what someone doing it since 1985 supposedly has perfected in a cornered market.

"Do it better" as they say...

Make a kit that's better, cheaper, and with good customer support, and you'll get $$$$$.

I know there was someone who stripped out one of those support struts or bent it or something.. It doesn't even look like it has good leverage over the motor. Poor placement, but there might not be another place to move it.....

BTW, the starter complaints have been known for some time. Using a stock starter from some car is much better than having to use a custom/special order starter, just in case you're ever stuck in BFE 5 minutes to 6 on a sunday.

quote Originally posted by GT Quick: And to jstricker....do you own stocks in Archie's business or are you just in love with him ? Yes people do seem defensive here and I was not expecting that. Is Archie an investor of this forum too or am I out of line ? I'm not a computer guy so no I'm not about being able to connect pictures to emails and so forth or even documented alot of the older builds from years and years ago. Just an old hotrodder that got ahold of a Fiero and wanted more power like many others. As for developing a kit...I'm not in the Fiero business guys...I just want input. As stated above for a man with no competition and the only other builder of a kit went out of business..........why has he not solved alot of simple problems ? Or does he not know what he is doing either ? Maybe he just has a rut and is stuck in it so to hell with upgrading the kit. I can see a guy like Archie saying "buy it or don't buy it I don't care". From my little dealings with him anyway. It only takes about 30 secs to sum up a man's integrity. Even on the phone. "Better yet, just work a deal with Archie and get a good price on 5 or 6 kits and stock them, then develop all your own mounts and accessories, and YOU sell the "NEW AND IMPROVED LOTS BETTER THAN V8 ARCHIE'S" kit. " Let's turn down the sarcasm a bit here please. I'm not wanting to build a kit, sell a kit or design a kit. I am just saying as a simple person like myself who has done 1 V8 swap it didn't take me long to redesign what someone doing it since 1985 supposedly has perfected in a cornered market. Why ?

Yes, let's turn down the sarcasm. You start.

do you own stocks in Archie's business or are you just in love with him ?

If you took 30 minutes to do a little research on your own, you'd know why people are so defensive.

I wasn't being the least bit sarcastic previously. You have come here stating how bad you felt the kit was. It's old, outdated, and you could do better. Fine. Do it. Advertise it. Sell it. Support it. Put Archie out of business. If yours is better than Archie's and I ever desire another SBC Fiero, I'll even buy one from you. Seriously.

Oh, but you don't want to do that, do you?

Tell me, instead of coming on a forum, did you ever just call Archie and list all of these deficiencies along with suggestions on how to make them better? Type them up like you did here and send them to him via email or snail mail? I didn't think so. Oh, but you shouldn't have to do that. Everything should just be delivered by UPS at your door, the day after you order it, exactly the way you would have designed it, and you shouldn't even have to go buy a nut or bolt. (you want to see sarcastic???)

You want an opinion, fine. Don't buy an Archie kit. They haven't changed that much and he doesn't need the aggravation. You talk about HIS integrity. I've done a lot of business with him over the years and I can certainly vouch for his integrity. But because he doesn't bend over and kiss your butt, you say "From my little dealings with him anyway. It only takes about 30 secs to sum up a man's integrity. Even on the phone. " That's your basis for judging a man's ingegrity? I hope you never get called for jury duty.

Archie's not an investor in the forum. The forum is owned in whole by Cliff Pennock and is based in the Netherlands. If Cliff decides to tomorrow, he can pull the plug and walk away. I don't think he will, because that would be out of character for him, but I don't know that he and Archie have ever met. If they have, it was just to exchange hellos at some show somewhere over the years.

That's it for me, I'm outta here. Do what you like, it's a free country. The kit hasn't changed enough to suit you. Don't buy one, you won't be happy.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by GT Quick: Just noticeing in 30 posts I only got one welcome. Thanks again jscott. And can someone tell me what the hell is a "troll" ???

GT Quick ... First off, welcome!! I don't want you to think the community here is inhospitable. Like Houdini, I have no dogs in this race, so I'm not going to chime in on the overall debate. As far as the term trolls go, it's someone who registers on the forum with the sole intent of stirring up hate and discontent, which I don't believe you are trying to do. Unfortunately..... because of a lot of the past experiences with the aforementioned trolls this topic can be one of those "raw nerve" subjects that put's people on the defensive before they even get past reading the thread title.

Rich

quote Originally posted by Zimmer: OH WOW 2 KITS. See my point? Why change or update something when you have no competition? Arent you the same guy bashing the guy in the forsale section for selling V8 kits right now? You prove my point.

You're just arguing to hear yourself talk. I've already explained - repeatedly - that I don't have a problem with competition, but I do have a problem with someone ripping off someone else's design. Zumalt and Archie are a perfect example of how 2 different people took the same idea and designed two different kits to do the job. Neither one is a copy of the other.

You are either incapable or unwilling to see the difference.

quote Originally posted by GT Quick: Just noticeing in 30 posts I only got one welcome. Thanks again jscott. And can someone tell me what the hell is a "troll" ???

A troll is a person who comes onto a forum with no other purpose than to start trouble. I don't think you are one, but people around here are super-sensitive to spot a troll and speed-ban them. Questioning one of the trusted members of this forum is the quickest way to gather suspicion. Just so you know.

No I don't own V8Archie stock, but my car is in his shop right now, so obviously I value his products and workmanship.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: I mean I don't want to get off on the wrong foot but I'm wanting to "poll the people" here to see if I am the only one that had to redesign the V8 Archie kit to get it to function correctly ? I felt like all I really needed was the adapter plate. I practically improved on 90% of the kit myself. The kit in my opinion is well.....just too OLD. First off, I think you DID join specifically to bash Archie's kit. Your post did nothing else. Fine, have at it. If you are really new here, do a search and you'll find DOZENS of people that have used his kits on this forum and had no more trouble with them than one would expect when they put a V8 into an engine compartment never designed to hold it. Compromises have to be made in any engineering change like this and it sounds like you don't like the compromises. That's fine, you don't have to, but I'm going to tell you right now that if you think you can do better than Archie's kit, the Fiero community would welcome an alternative and you can just have at it. Many others have tried and they are all either gone or in bankruptcy now. John Stricker

I actually Majorly disagree with you here John, everything this guy has shared has been appropriate enough, he is sharing his experience with the Archie Kit, and to be honest, I always thought the kit was rather outdated, and it certainly isn't idiotproof. All the gripes this guy has about the kit are rather genuine and not the first time i have heard complaints about these issues( and wont be the last either ). As to Archie's demeanor over the phone, well, i called him ONCE ages ago when i was thinking about doing an SBC in my citation rather than the 4.9L caddy( the citation shares the same drivetrain and suspension in the front as the fiero has in the back ), and he was rather rude to me too. Maybe i caught him on a bad day, but that's no way to deal with customers. I asked him basic questions about his kit and he was put off even talking about it. I wasn't decided yet on my choice of engine, but wasn't sold on the idea of an SBC because of the weight, and his attitude made up my mind very quickly for me. I chose the caddy V8, and couldn't be happier, it maintained the integrity of the handling of the car while greatly increasing the acceleration. As far as his technical knoweledge goes, he certainly has a plethora of technical knoweledge, i guess he just doesn't feel like expressing it over the phone. Lately his posts in the forums have been less tech and more rubbish, especially his lurker e-thug battle with Darkhorizon over in the thread that Chuck started about his timeslips with his LT1 turbo setup.

I personally think alot of the major players in this forum have fragile egos and they need to man up and stop being so sensitive. Don't get all bent out of shape when you or someone from your little clique gets called out on something. And i will give Archie this much credit, he is not getting bent out of shape about this, because i'm sure he's heard it before.

[This message has been edited by aaronrus (edited 10-06-2007).]